Freddy B

I need help with an issue I have been having for a year now. My car is a 71 cutlass with an Olds 455. When I bought the car it was hard to start even after it reached operating temperature. I changed the hei distributor, plugs, wires, carburetor, timing chain. After everything was installed I started the car and it ran for 2-3 minutes and shut off. When the car was in gear it would hesitate then shut off. After the car shut off lots of smoke came from under the hood around the motor. I recently connected a vacuum gauge and it was reading between 10-12hg indicating late timing. I don't know if the cam was changed but it didn't look original when I changed the timing chain. What can I do to make sure the valve timing is correct? Will this be different if the cam isn't stock? Were should I starting checking to get the valve timing corrected?

Fred

oldcutlass

I don't understand, did you change to an HEI, did you change the HEI? What is your timing set to? If you are running an HEI, did you ensure the resistance wire has been removed.

Freddy B

Eric,

The car had an hei distributor when I got it. Engine won't stay running long enough for me to check the timing. I put the #1 piston at TDC using a piston stop and made sure the distributor pointer was on the #1 spark plug wire. The engine starts but won't stay running. Any suggestions?

don71

Start over. Do it again.

Make sure you at TDC on #1

don71

You know, Its possible to have your engine quit after starting If the HEI is hooked to the wrong source.

pogo69

Right...is it possible you brought #1 to tdc but #6 is firing?

don71

If you were off at the timing chain, (valve timing) I don't think this engine would run.

Freddy B

Don I connected the hei to the ignition and tach wires on the engine side of the new wiring harness I installed. But I did double check that as well.

Freddy B

I was thinking that as well but was not sure.

Freddy B

I didn't think that was possible. I did check to make sure all spark plug wires were connected to the right plug.

pogo69

Recheck the timing with #1 on the comp stroke both valves closed it is possible you are checking #1 at tdc but on the wrong stroke...also it is possible the engine will run with valve timing off you can get a rough idea by bringing each cyl to tdc and both valves should be closed if the valve timing is off one valve will be open varing amount or you can measure the timing but you need to know what the cam spec is

pogo69

Sometimes its easy to forget your crank rotates twice for the 4 engine cycles....so #1 could be at top but #6 is firing so double check

oldcutlass

Turn up the idle at the linkage on the carb so it will stay running. Once you get it running get your timing set, its probably to far declined right now. Then proceed with your tuning.

gs72

A fast and easy way to check is... Take out the #1 plug. Take off the dist. Cap, mark the position of the #1 plug wire on the dist. Housing. Crank the engine over with the dist. cap off and the ign. disabled. Listen to the engine crank over and note the position of the rotor when the engine passes over the cyl. With no compression (#1 cyl.). if you hear it cranking faster over your mark on the dist. You are in the ballpark. If not, you need to switch the plug wires or re stab the dist.

cherokeepeople

you people seem to be missing the question he is asking.
he wants to know where to start checking "valve timing".your distributor could be set dead on BUT if the valve timing is off say a tooth at the timing chain it ain't gonna run right.so to start checking the only way is to pull the timing chain cover to see if in fact the timing marks between cam and crank match.

oldcutlass

The valve timing should have been checked when the timing chain was installed. I was assuming it was installed correctly and he was referring to ignition timing.

MDchanic

Since he doesn't think he has an original cam, he can't use the simple valve timing check in the Chassis Service Manual, which leaves him the option of checking timing with a dial indicator and a degree wheel.
He'll need to degree the whole cam, then figure out where it's supposed to be set.

- Eric

Railguy

Be sure you have 12 volts to the HEI at all times before you go any farther .It s a common mistake to not have 12 volts.
RAILGUY

Freddy B

Here is were I am currently, got the car to run long enough to check it with a timing light. With the light on the dampener it shows the initial timing is well advance and not reading on the timing tab. Do I have to remove the distributor and re-install it after I get the it to TDC on #1 piston? Or can I just turn the base of the distributor to align the mark on the base for the #1 spark plug wire with the rotor?

MDchanic

You do not need to have the engine actually running to use the timing light - as long as it cranks and has a spark, the light will flash, and you should be able to get an idea of where the timing is set, so you know which way to move it.

To adjust the timing, you loosen the distributor clamp bolt and rotate the distributor base clockwise to advance, counterclockwise to retard.
If you need more adjustment than you can get before the timing can hits the firewall, you need to jump all of the wires over one position and start over.

This would be a good time to consult your Chassis Service Manual.

- Eric

oldcutlass

The other issue is your using an HEI and cannot use the original timing settings. You have to run more initial, usually around 16-18 degrees BTDC. An adjustable dial back timing light is handy for this.

Octania

One trick to make sure HEI is happy would be to unhook the car's 12V input. Attach your own 1/4" spade connector on a wire which you clip to the battery positive post when you want it to run. The clip is now your ign switch. A proper HEI, fed a proper 12V in this manner, will fire well and consistently.

If I had that dist'r out, I would wire it like that. Then attach another clip jumper wire from battery minus to dist'r case. Put another jumper from coil output to near ground, like thru a spark checker. Spin it by hand, and ensure that all sparks occur. Draw the vacuum canister in with vacuum and re-verify all sparks happen all the time. Ck the shaft for sideways slop, esp. at top end. Heck dismantle it and refresh the grease at the top bushing, and the bushing if need be.

As for your cam timing, yeah, w/o a cam timing spec card, degree wheel and all that is a tough road. Might be better to remove timing cover and inspect the marks for alignment. I am so dedicated to correct cam to crank timing that I always get a witness to verify, and/or take a photo just before the cover goes on.

Freddy B

Eric (oldcutlass),

Pardon my confusion but I am trying to understand the timing process for an hei distributor. These are the steps I have done so far.
1. Turned the crank clockwise until I started to feel and hear air coming from the spark plug hole on #1 piston.
2. Inserted a TDC stop tool and continued to turn the crank clockwise until the piston touched the stop tool and I put a mark on the damper at 0° using the timing tab.
3. Then I turned the crank counter clockwise until the piston touched the stop tool again and I put another mark on the damper at 0° using the timing tab.
4. I removed the stop tool and placed a tape measure on the two points and put another mark halfway between the first two marks.
5. I put the new timing mark on the 0° mark on the timing tab on the compression stroke.

This should be TDC right?

To get 16-18 degrees initial timing from this point, do I need to loosen the bolt holding the distributor housing and turn it until the timing light reads 16-18 degrees?

This is where I get confused with the process.

oldcutlass

There is a line forged on the balancer that should have been close to the 0 mark on the timing tab when you were at tdc. That line is used to line up your timing marks to set your timing with the engine running while shining the timing light on it. The timing light needs to be hooked to the number 1 spark plug. The idle speed needs to be low enough so that the mechanical advance is coming in and the vacuum advance needs to be disconnected and plugged. You loosen the bolt that holds the clamp on the distributor base just enough to turn the distributor to set timing. Do you have a dial back timing light?

Freddy B

I do have a dial back timing light. Currently the car idles at about 700-800 rpms and with the timing light set on zero the initial timing is far retarded.

oldcutlass

Ok, lower the idle down to about 500ish, Set the dial to 16 on the timing light. Then adjust the distributor so the line on the balancer lines up with 0 on the tab. Turn off the engine and tighten the distributor bolt. Restart and make sure it didn't change. Then hook up your advance and set your idle speed and carb.

Freddy B

Thanks Eric that's what I was thinking I will try it after work today and see how it goes.

Railguy

Did anyone think about octane? Try putting in a couple gal of 116. Sounds like a classic case of to much compression for pump gas. Or at least to much for 87. What are you running.?
Railguy

Freddy B

Here is a little update. I followed Eric instructions in post #26. When I set the timing light to 16° started the car I noticed the vacuum gauge was reading 15 indicating late timing. When I shut the car off I saw smoke coming from the exhaust manifolds. Do I need to remove the distributor and turn the rotor left or right a couple of teeth to fix this problem? I don't know what to do at this point. I posted a quick video of the car running.

oldcutlass

If you have an aftermarket cam, the markings on your vacuum gauge for timing are incorrect because your vacuum will generally be lower. 15hg is fine and more importantly its steady. Is your idle speed very high? I don't understand the smoke thing your describing other than the engine is possibly running on after the ignition is turned off. That may be due to a high idle.

Railguy

What fuel are you running ?
Railguy

Freddy B

[QUOTE=oldcutlass;899172]If you have an aftermarket cam, the markings on your vacuum gauge for timing are incorrect because your vacuum will generally be lower. 15hg is fine and more importantly its steady. Is your idle speed very high? I don't understand the smoke thing your describing other than the engine is possibly running on after the ignition is turned off. That may be due to a high idle.

Eric,
I guess it is a factory cam because I just bought the vacuum gauge brand new. My idle was around 1100 on the timing light. Once the engine starts to warm up I see a little smoke but it is more evident after the car is shut off, maybe it's because the fans are blowing. The engine starts and stops as soon as I turn the key. I'm at a loss.

Freddy B

The fuel is 87 octane.

oldcutlass

1100 is way to high and your out of the idle circuit of the carb. You need to drop the idle speed down to 600 in drive. I would run 93 octane fuel.

Freddy B

Maybe because the car is idling around 1100 in park it's smoking, I don't know? When I put it in drive the car idles between 800-900 rpms. I will turn the idle screw down to lower the rpms and see what happens. Thanks for the advance on the fuel.

Fred

Railguy

What size holley ? Did you adjust idle jets ?I wouldn't do anything until until you get the octane up .If the tank is full add a couple gal. of 116. If you can't get it siphon the tank and fill with 93.
railguy

Freddy B

I have a 650 carb. I have4 not adjusted the idle jets yet. I will get some 93 octane after work today and see what happens.

Railguy

So what happened?
Railguy

Freddy B

So I siphoned out all of the 87 and added 10 gal of 93 octane. The car ran longer than it ever had so far. I checked the temp gauge and it was running at 190° after the engine warmed up. The car still idles at 1000-1250 rpms. When I shut the car off it seemed to stumble then it shut off. I don't know what to do now any suggestions?

oldcutlass

Turn the idle speed down.