David Man-Man Manley

I have a 1969 Cutlass. It was previously owned and considering I am new to cars and, as you'll find out, am new to the electrical aspects of cars. Something has been draining my battery.

1) I have found the fusible wire. The wire is hot. The problem is the fuse is dead in the fusible wire. Seeing as how I can usually start the car. That means another wire is going to my fuse panel, right?

2) This might not be an issue, but I wouldn't know. I'm more of just concerned. The positive terminal is connected to the tranny and has a ground cable on it. The negative cable is connected to the alternator. Does this sound right, because I thought it was the other way around? I even tried to connect it the other way around and it was parking before I could even finish.

-David

oldcutlass

Do you have pictures, cause what your describing is definitely wrong.

MDchanic

+1. None of what you said makes any sense whatsoever, so we will need much more explanation, and preferably clear photographs, to begin to help you.

What sort of work do you do? That will help us to see how your brain is slanted when looking at this stuff, and when reading manuals and diagrams.

- Eric

David Man-Man Manley

20130831_162327.jpg20130831_162331.jpg

tru-blue 442

Do you have access to a chassis
service manual?
I don't see your pos. cable going to
the horn relay at all. The large starter wire
should be coming up to it as well.

Do you have a remote starter button hooked
up somehow? I don't even see how this would
even work from what little I can see.

David Man-Man Manley

Yeah the positive is not going to the horn relay. It's going to the tranny I think. And yes I have a chassis manual. No I have a hard time reading the schematic. And no I don't think there is a remote start.

Octania

I have a 1969 Cutlass. It was previously owned and considering I am new to cars and, as you'll find out, am new to the electrical aspects of cars.

The positive terminal is connected to the tranny and has a ground cable on it.
===================
More likely, the positive battery runs to NEAR the trans, which is where the starter is. "and it has a ground cable on it" makes no sense. I hope you mean that the + cable is colored black and therefore LOOKS like a negative cable.


The negative cable is connected to the alternator.
===============
The photo helps.
The gnd cable is connected to the BRACKET at the alternator. Not-standard site, but, it goes more or less right to the engine block, so it should work. It is BEST to run that cable right to the ENGINE BLOCK, to get the major current from the starter motor, which is grounded to the engine block. Make sure your BODY is grounded also- it should be a braided bare wire from aft end of RH head to the firewall nearby.


Something has been draining my battery.
==============================
Did you leave a light on, courtesy lights, trunk light staying on, underhood light? Aftermarket radio or other accessory?
...A good way to find a leak is to disconnect the battery cable, and put an ammeter or 12V lamp in line between battery and large cable. Any current draw will then show up. With everything off, there should be no current draw. If there IS, then start disconnecting wires and fuses until it stops. I'd start with the alternator's big red wire that charges the battery- because if the diodes fail, they can leak backwards and drain the battery. If that does not stop the leak, then pull fuses one by one. If that does not work, then you have to look at the unfused circuits like your headlights.

A bad battery is possible also. Take it to the store and have it checked.




I have found the fusible wire. The wire is hot.
=============
Well, that's not unusual. It does carry current.
This is from the junction at the horn relay, to the rest of the car, right?


The problem is the fuse is dead in the fusible wire.
==================
Perhaps you are looking at that open fuse holder we see in the photo... that runs to the uhm.... blower motor I think?
That is NOT a fusible wire- those are, literally, a chunk of wire carefully designed to burn apart before all your other wires do, in worse locations. On your model, they would be the first 6" or so from the junction bolt on the horn relay to the big blob of rubber that covers the splice to the real wire that goes into the car.


Seeing as how I can usually start the car. That means another wire is going to my fuse panel, right?
===========
"usually"? Heh. OK.
Yes, that tells me your starter solenoid is [usually] getting juice, via the ign switch and neutral safety circuit, via the bulkhead connector at the fusebox, via the fusible link via the horn relay = junction...


I even tried to connect it the other way around and it was parking before I could even finish.
===================
You got me there.
It was parking?
"it" connected the other way 'round? I hope you don't mean the + and - cables at the battery, 'cause that might well cause the alternator diodes to crap out. So I hear.

PS, Your PS pump has too little belt contact.
That needs correcting.
Looks like a real G400 engine
I thought that '69 442's had the internal regulated alternator- yours does not. Maybe only the H/O had that feature in 1969...

David Man-Man Manley

Ok. Dang. What would be the best way to start looking at all of this? Is the a first place I should look at?

Octania

Do you have access to a chassis service manual?
I don't see your pos. cable going to the horn relay at all.
==============
sure it is.
Hokiest positive wire ever, now that I look at the terminal at the battery post. But, I do see a wire of about 10 AWG size going from hokey battery terminal to horn relay.


The large starter wire should be coming up to it as well.
===============
Not for this model. 1967 & earlier I believe.
Fattest wire to starter, then a 10g or so feeds the car via the junction as seen.


You can learn to understand the wiring diagram.
Folks not as smart as you fix cars every day. Have faith.

Where to start?
Battery looks new but I have learned that new does NOT guarantee "works right". Charge the battery. Take it to the store and have it tested if need be.

Find out if you have a leak by the above method- look for a current draw when none is supposed to exist.

Later... replace those hokeyass cables with something proper- say from Fusick.com perhaps.... red on positive.... proper ground and body feed 10g wires.... properly crimped, soldered, and glue line heat shrinked.

Do you want a better black washer fluid jug?

MDchanic

He missed a key. He meant to type "sparking."

So, yes, he connected the wires backward and caused a hellacious spark, and may have destroyed the alternator or regulator.

I am following along here, waiting for more information that I can use to assemble a clear picture.

So far, I'm not really sure what's wrong with the car, aside from the damage from having reversed the polarity.

- Eric

David Man-Man Manley

@MDchanic - Ok I did start to connect "the wires backward" but I did not even get so far as to put the second cable on to the battery. It sparked and I went h@ll no. Maybe it damaged the alternator, I don't know.

@Octania - Yes I have a chassis manual. Yes, the battery cable goes to the starter. And the negative goes to the alternator. Haha, and yes and one point I will want a better fluid jug. I'm just not concerned with that as much right now. Also, you above method kinda confuses me. Haha, could you break it down Barney style for me?

oldcutlass

I think they bypassed the horn relay junction block by going directly to the starter with the positive cable. The wire that comes from the alternator is still going to the junction block in the normal way, and he has a wire feeding to the junction block from the battery terminal. What he probably needs is to rewire the starter and junction block back to normal. There is too much of a load feeding the rest of the car off the junction block with relation to the current size of the wire so it's not allowing the battery to charge.

David Man-Man Manley

@oldcutlass - what is the junction block? The broken looking box that my negative cable is connected to?

oldcutlass

Follow the smaller black wire from the positive battery cable to the connection on the fender well. That's the junction block for the horn relay.

David Man-Man Manley

@oldcutlass - Hmmm, ok so whatshould I do next?

Octania

Take the battery to the store and have it verified good or dead.
Take the alternator along and have that tested as well.

On this model, the large battery cable goes right to the starter solenoid, it DOES NOT stop at the horn relay like say 1967 models did. The SMALLER ~10g wire goes from battery terminal to horn relay / junction block. I see this correctly if somewhat hokily wired in the above photos.

svnt442

This is correct. The small wire goes to the post on the horn relay to provide power into the car.

oldcutlass

I see that on the schematic now, but we are powering the whole car off a 10ga wire?

svnt442

You have to remember that there really wasn't all that much going on the the power demand department back then. I think the single heaviest draw would have been the convertible top motor. Even the rear defrost was just a blower with a heating element in it.

MDchanic

Actually, a blower only, with NO heating element in it.

- Eric

svnt442

Oh really...well there I go making an assumption again.

oldcutlass

My point is that you have a battery that would need charging, lights, blower motor, A/C clutch, cigar lighter, radio, and possibly a rear defroster blower, all off that post with a 10ga wire.

Bunser

And actually it was a defogger. (It didn't work all that well, but with the amount of window fogging, nothing could keep up.)

David Man-Man Manley

Here is my schematic. From what I can tell the wiring diagram calls for the negative to go to the starter, and the positive is supposed to go to the alternator. I, on the other hand, have the opposite setup.

20130901_125208.jpg

oldcutlass

No the positive goes to the starter and the negative goes to ground. So your battery is wires correctly on your starter. The one thing I see is the smaller wire that is stuffed under the battery terminal clamp and goes to the horn relay stud, in my opinion is too small.

Your charging problem may be, although not very old a low or bad battery, in conjunction with a possible bad alternator or voltage regulator and or bad connections at the stud or battery ground.

I know your not well versed in electrical stuff, but as we discussed in your PM, you need to see if all the other wires off the horn relay stud are in the correct locations. The alternator wire, voltage regulator wire, and the wire to the fuse block. I'd also take the nut off the stud and clean all those wire terminals and reassemble.

David Man-Man Manley

@oldcutlass I could see where you would think it is a charging problem. The thing is I can usually start the car, drive around, park, and then disconnect the battery. Upon reconnecting the battery I can start the car easily. So I don't think the charging, or the alternator, is an issue.

Tomorrow though I will check and test all four of those wires.

oldcutlass

To find a parasitic load that's draining the battery, you need to connect an amp meter in series with the small black wire to the battery and see if its drawing current. If it is then you need to first check lights, including the ones under the hood and in the trunk if you have them. Any stereo equipment and power amps. If it's none of that, then you need to start pulling fuses 1 by 1 until the meter goes to 0.

I have witnessed faulty voltage regulators draw batteries down also.

MDchanic

So you need to use an ammeter in series with the battery and check for a leak, as OldCutalss described earlier.

- Eric

MDchanic

Please tell us how you can get this:
from this:

(sorry about the poor quality).

Seriously - Knowing how you derive that meaning from this image would help us to explain this all in a way that you would understand.

- Eric

David Man-Man Manley

@MDchanic My misunderstanding of the schematic is from inexperience. I saw the black and red lines and thought negative and positive. But I guess the negative post on the schematic is the one with a line going to sheet metal ground. Right?

@oldcutlass How am I supposed to use the amp meter? I dont fully understand the "series with the small black wire to the battery" part.

1970cs

There are two types of electrical circuits parallel and series.

Series is in line see pic posted, FYI you can do this with either positive or negative post I prefer the negative. remove battery cable and hook either a test light or ammeter to post and the other to the terminal.

Make sure radios and door are off/closed. When are you sure everything is off, if it has a drain it will show with a light (test light) or amp draw on the meter.

If your showing no light or amps, then no draw or drain on battery!

MDchanic

Ah ha. Now we're getting somewhere.

You were assuming that different colors must represent different circuits, when, in fact, they represent different colored wires.
You were also not seeing that wires that go to the same point are connected together.

This falls under the category of "Very basic information that you need to know, but that we cannot teach you here."

The best thing that you could do would be to find resources on the internet to teach you this.
I would recommend starting with these:

• A Navy manual - start on page 3-6, where discussion of a variety of different types of automotive diagrams begins.
• A quick page of information, from a computer perspective.
• A nice article from Motor magazine.
• The first in a series of instructional videos for modern mechanics, which asks you to read the above article:
  
  Training Series How to read an electrical diagram - YouTube

Read up a bit, and all of this will be much easier for you.



Right.



Once you read a bit of background information, this should be easy for you.

- Eric

Octania

Do not confuse COLOR of wire with FUNCTION
Red is often the +12V wire, and black the ground
BUT NOT ALWAYS as we see on your car.
You have black and black.
I have even seen them reversed with red used for ground.

I agree that you need a basic "101" instructional course on schematic symbols, and wiring in general. It's not hard at all to get the basics, this ain't.... well, yes, it IS actually "Rocket Science".... but it ain't Brain Surgery.

The "ground" connection is typically shown on paper as the wire entering a perpendicular line, then a space, then a shorter line, and a 3rd or even 4th line, each shorter than the last. You can see this symbol adjacent to the teeeensy battery in your nice color diagram, where it says "ENGINE GROUND" and "SHEETMETAL GROUND".
This line line line symbol translates to "any handy chunk of the chassis metal" and in practice the Olds Engineers put the huge battery (-) wire ["ENGINE GROUND"] on the BLOCK near the power steering pump, not at the alternator bracket... and then various things typically ground nearby to where they are- headlights have a ground wire to the radiator support ["SHEETMETAL GROUND"] - which, by the way is supposed to be grounded to your (-) battery cable near the battery terminal- that unused butt splice there... The main body ground gets to the engine by way of an uninsulated wire from aft end of RH head to the firewall nearby...

One factory FAIL to note- they show the battery Ground wire as the thinnest line on the whole thing when in real life the battery ground cable is one of the two hugest fattest cables on the vehicle. The battery cables have to be huge to easily handle the 100's of amps that the starter draws. After the starting ceremony, only much smaller wires are needed, as you see throughout the rest of the wiring harness.

Electricity will run thru all available paths.
If your proper grounds are not in place, the electricity will run thru improper routes not designed for electrical current- shifter cable, throttle cable, reverse direction thru lighting wires, etc. This causes all manner of bad things. Welded throttle cable, etc.

But, I digress...
TEST YOUR BATTERY AND ALTERNATOR to rule out those as problems.

if those are OK then get someone nearby- your local community college or corner garage maybe? to show you how to hook up a test light or ammeter in line with the power feed wire and from there determine if there is a leak and if so where it is.

David Man-Man Manley

Ok so I used an ammeter in series with the negative terminal and had zero draw. I even checked down to the mA. No draw. But I had about 6V of draw. And pulling the fuses and all the other thing attached to the fuse panel made no difference.

MDchanic

So if you have no leakage, then nothing is draining your battery, and you need to look elsewhere for the source of your problem. Good.

6V of draw?
What does that mean?

Current flow is measured in Amps. You measure it with an ammeter, which must always be connected in series.

Potential difference is measured in Volts. You measure it with a voltmeter, which must always be connected in parallel, between the two points whose difference you want to measure.

What, exactly, did you do?

- Eric

David Man-Man Manley

Ah Dang. I measured voltage in series. Not parallel.

MDchanic

So you were measuring some other thing entirely.

That being said, if there were no leakage, the voltmeter should have read Zero as well.

I'd try the simple trick of disconnecting the (-) terminal again, and connecting a small instrument panel light bulb in series between the battery and the battery terminal. A 194 bulb normally draws 270mA, and should glow at least a bit with fairly small amounts of leakage, like 100mA or more.
If your leak is less than that, it's not draining your battery over less than a month.

- Eric

David Man-Man Manley

@MDchanic is there an easy way of doing that? I think I have the bulb. I'm gonna have to check tomorrow.

MDchanic

I think you can solder wires to the terminals. If not, auto parts stores should sell sockets.

- Eric

oldcutlass

Why not just buy one of these if your going to go the test light route: