Octania

Got this the other day

F150s self-ignite due to iggernut injunearing praktisses

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So…I was sleeping this morning, and heard athree-second horn blast outside. Then there was a small thud, sort of like acar door closing, then the sounds of a couple of vehicles driving away. Kathyasked me what time it was, I replied 4:55.

I wasn’t too concerned. We don’t get a lot ofhorn blowing in our area, especially at that time, but it wasn’t unusual enoughto get up and check it out. I’d already made up my mind to get up at 5:00 andgo running, so I just laid half-awake for the time being.

I got up at 5:00 and shut off the alarm.Entering the living room, I noticed a reddish glow coming through the windows.I just figured whatever had gone on in the road had drawn some emergencyvehicles so I pulled back the curtain for a look. There were no vehicles atall, and the neighbor’s place across the road was pitch black – except for15-foot orange flames shooting from his F-150!

I pulled on some pants, asked Kathy to call911, and headed over there in my bare feet. Because no house lights were on, Iwanted to make sure the four occupants were awake and aware of the situation.But by the time I got within 50 feet of the truck I could see that Tom and Deb(parents) were outside, and Josh and Kendra (kids) were on the back porch. Tomwas vainly trying to get some water on the truck via a garden hose. I don’tknow if the hose was too short or if the heat kept him out of range.

After a few minutes a couple of fire trucksshowed up and doused it. As far as I know, the only damage was to the truck.There had been vehicles parked next to it, but Tom and Deb had hustled themaway – those were the vehicles we had heard. The truck was a good 50 feet fromthe house. That, and the fact that the house is basically made of concreteblocks, prevented any damage there. From my view out of my living room door, ithad looked like the truck was right next to the house.

Deb mentioned that Fords are known for doingthat. Since I got up an hour and a half early to go running, and it was nowclear that I wasn’t going to run, I had plenty of time for a Bing search for“F-150 fire.” Deb was right!

There are many, many, many descriptions ofother Fords doing the same thing, right down to (ironically) blowing their ownhorns! There must be something in the horn circuit that fails due to the heatand causes the horn to blow. (Maybe Ford decided if they were going to build anincendiary time bomb they may as well throw in a fire alarm.)

Scuttlebutt on the internet is this:

Ford decided to change the way the cruisecontrol shutoff signal is created. Instead the good old cheap, reliable SPSTnormally closed plunger switch on the brake pedal lever, they decided to mountthe switch on the brake master cylinder and use hydraulic pressure rather thanmechanical movement for actuation. So they used a switch with electricalcontacts actuated by (flammable, of course) brake fluid. Which is fine, as longas the brake fluid and contacts stay separated. But, alas…
And then Ford decided to double down bymaking sure the switch always (as in even when the ignition is off)has power.

So now there’s a switch containing flammableliquid as well as electrical contacts in the same housing, receiving power 24/7unless the battery is dead, begging two questions:
- What could go wrong?
- What kind of bonehead replaces a simpledesign that has worked well for 50 years, with this kind of Rube Goldbergnonsense?

m371961

Hmm, many old brake light switches were pressure switches in the brake line.

oldcutlass

I don't know, for decades there are a lot of cars that have the brake light switch operate the very same way. I would not think there would be an issue either, maybe they used a $h!t switch.

bob p

My old 80s F-150 was recalled because the ignition switch circuit could cause a fire.

Self-start electrical problems aren't unique to Ford. My sister's Volvo started itself and drove right out of the garage -- right through the garage door. It turns out that this is a documented problem with old Volvo when the wiring goes bad. The wiring defect can cause the cars to start, and the manual transmission cars can take off if left in gear. Volvo paid for the repairs to the garage and the car.

m371961

I will have to remember not to stand in front of or behind old Volvos.

joe_padavano

Since when is brake fluid flammable? And more to the point, how does brake fluid leaking into a pressure switch even cause the switch to short out and overheat?

joe_padavano

The more I think about this, the more ludicrous that story becomes. First, the pressure switch is normally closed. Applying brake fluid pressure opens the switch, turning off the cruise. Second, brake fluid is neither conductive nor flammable. Third, if brake fluid were leaking into the switch, the pedal going to the floor would have been a giveaway.

Sorry, I'm raising the BS flag. Of course, this is already all over the internet, so everyone believes it's true.

RetroRanger

yeah really cmon who uses BING for a search engine LOL (i mean beside @ MS where they have to)

actually IIRC this was an issue w 90s F150s there was a recall or TSB for cruise switches that could start fires

and who besides my wife uses a garage to park in ?

RetroRanger

the skinny

http://www.autosafety.org/ford-cruis...ls-and-history

Octania

DOT 3 sure as heck is

I was oh maybe 18
working on the... 67? Cutlass, sure.

Brake line popped, meh I will fix that later. Warmed up the engine... jumped in to move the car a little. pressed brake pedal... it spewed BF onto the hot xst manifold... resulting in a nice brake fluid FIRE. I was not aware before that of this capacity. I have heard that Bleach and BF makes copious amounts of smoke but I must be old because I have not done it.

I have done the Diet Coke & mentos thing though

From "the skinny" link above:

"On April 25, 1996, Ford Motor Company recalled 7.9 million vehicles for defective ignition switches that could short circuit and start fires in parked vehicles with the engine off because the switch circuit was hot or powered at all times. In a virtual replay on October 9, 2009, Ford Motor Company announced the last of its six recalls for defective Cruise Control Deactivation Switches that suffered from the same failure mode as the earlier ignition switch – an electrical switch in a continually powered, non-fused circuit. (In both cases, the suspect switch was made by Texas Instruments.) This latest recall in the series brought the total number of vehicles involved to 14.9 million. The switches, which run continuously even when the vehicle is not in operation, are prone to fail over time and cause electrical fires. One side of the switch is electrical and the other side is flammable hydraulic fluid, a combination conducive to fire. Fires in these vehicles have caused numerous house and garage fires, and resulted in deaths in several states. "

oldcutlass

Here's a good read as all fluids under the hood will flash at certain temps.

http://garrett-engineers.com/2005/10...o-fluids-burn/

Whats funny is everyone knows transmission fluid is an issue, yet auto manufacturers route the cooling lines where?

Koda

I had an explorer, a 97, and it had no power to that switch with ign off, so I called it good. I did check, though. It is fail safe, so unplugging it means no cruise.

TripDeuces

I want to see windshield washer fluid ignite at 108F. You'd be in extreme danger every time you added WW fluid if that were the case. Maybe pure methanol but I doubt that when mixed with water.

joe_padavano

So again, how is this any different from the tens of millions (hundreds of millions?) of stop light switches that operate off of hydraulic pressure? Sorry, but the BS alarm is still going off. And how is this any different from the differential pressure switch in every 1967-up automobile?

The problem is NOT that you have hydraulic fluid on one side and electricity on the other. The problem is HEAT, and since the hydraulic fluid isn't conductive, the heat is NOT coming from it. Either the switch has a failure mode that internally shorts to ground, or a short downstream from the normally closed switch is causing it to overheat. The problem is the unfused circuit, not the proximity of hydraulic fluid.

And if washer fluid ignites at 108F, gallon jugs of the stuff must spontaneously combust in Phoenix in the summer.

Koda

Joe, from what I understand, that particular switch's membrane was bad and would crack and leak brake fluid onto the always on, closed contacts. I am not sure how it ignited from there.

Fun71

Koda pegged it.

I had a '97 Lincoln Mark VIII that had a recall for this exact issue. This car was designed with a backup cruise control disable switch operated by hydraulic pressure in the passengers side brake caliper circuit, and on some vehicles a Teflon(?) membrane could leak and the brake fluid could cause a short that then causes the wires to overheat and possibly catch fire (not the brake fluid). The recall involved inserting a fuse in the wiring; many of us owners just unplugged and bypassed the sensor and didn't have a backup and relied on the primary brake light switch to disengage the cruise when the brake pedal was pressed. If that failed for some reason, the cruise can be disabled via the "On/Off" switch on the steering wheel.

This is something that has been known in the Ford community for a long time (it was discussed on the Mark VIII forum in 2007) so I question this as a recent "news flash". Sounds like it's a chain e-mail that has been circulating the internet for several years and just got resurrected.

Link to recall discussion on Mark VIII site back in 2007:
http://www.markviii.org/htdocs/dc/dc...ode=full&page=

rocketraider

I'm second owner of my 93 F150 and in 2007 Ford tracked ownership to me for the CC brake switch recall. Part was on backorder so I went two months without functioning cruise.

But I'll give it to the truck- it has as well-working cruise as I've ever owned. It works better than the one in my 02 Grand Marquis- sometimes I have to lift the brake pedal on that to get the brake pedal CC switch to reset and let it engage. I actually blame that on the adjustable pedals, though I have never moved them.

Octania

Stories have been around for years I am sure due to the nature of the phenomenon...

But THIS story is from my brother, within the last week. He wrote it, he lived it.

4/2015

Near Gr. Rapids. MI

So.... add another case I guess.

Destructor

I had a Cadillac that self stated and drove into town to the red light district.

gs72

Here is the story from years of first hand experience with thi issue. The problem is like it was stated, the switch is wired to constant power. The brake fluid leaks around the wire terminals and into the harness connector. This causes the connector shell and the wire insulation the soften and fall apart. Once this happens the wire terminals short together in the connector with sometimes results in a fire. We have had several trucks towed into the dealer that were total losses. One customer's garage burned down as well. Ford did come up with a fix which was nothing more than a jumper harness with a fuse in it. We joked because we waited a long time for the recall parts and when they finally arrived, they looked like a couple of pot heads made them in their garage. We must have been right too because the fuse was on the wrong side of the switch. Fords solution to this new problem was to put fuses on both sides of the switch. Usually they just need the jumper harness. The really bad ones get an updated switch and a new style connector.

gs72

Something joe said about the switch being normally closed got me thinking. I pulled out the electrical manual for my truck and reviewed the circuit in question. The circuit is fused at the fuse box at 20 amps. And the way it is wired it shouldn't matter if the wires short together. This would only cause the cruise not to deactivate with brake pedal input. It must be the internals of the switch shorting to the switch body and grounding through the master cyl. The problem comes from the power circuit also feeding the brake pedal position switch, the high mount stop light and the trailer tow brake light circuits if equipped. A 20 amp fuse is way to big for the speed control cancel circuit. Therefore it usually won't blow when the short occurs. This results in burned wires, melted connectors and sometimes fuego! Thanks joe for jump starting my brain once again!

joe_padavano

That's what I'm struggling with. The fact that the contacts are always powered is irrelevant. Brake fluid is not conductive to my knowledge. Pretty much every brake light circuit is always powered, including the ones that use pressure-activated brake light switches. Pouring brake fluid on a set of powered contacts will NOT cause it to ignite.

Again, there needs to be a heat source. That means that a short somewhere is required to cause the switch to overheat. The problem is NOT a switch with brake fluid in proximity to electrical circuits. The problem is an unfused circuit.

joe_padavano

Now THAT is a credible failure mode. Once again, however, if you have a brake fluid leak, I would expect you could feel it in the pedal before this becomes a problem.

bob p

So what happens when you have a brake fluid leak that destroys the wires? You feel it in the pedal, you fix the brakes, and the wires are still bad. Then you might get the fire.

joe_padavano

Kinda hard to "fix" the brakes in this situation without replacing that leaking switch with the damaged insulation.

Koda

Might be a very small seep leak. You don't notice a weeping cylinder as much as a busted line.

bob p

I am not an expert with an irreversible opinion, so I'm not going to insist one way or the other. But I don't see any reason to insist that the failure mode can not exist. I'm not assuming that leaking brake fluid will confine it's damage to the wires in the pressure switch, and not effect wires anywhere else. I'm willing to consider that brake fluid contamination might cause long term damage to insulation on other wires that may be difficult to recognize. I know that human nature prevents anyone from replacing the entire wiring loom when it looks like only one switch is bad and a brake fluid leak can be wiped clean. Human nature makes people replace the bad switch and turn a blind eye to the other wiring that is "not effected."

oldcutlass

Personally, I'd just make sure my smoke detectors work and the car and homeowners insurance is paid up and not worry.

bob p

That reminds me that I need to buy some batteries...

oldcutlass

For the smoke detector or the hearing aid?

bob p

Although I may sound like an old coot, I'm not older than my car.

Fun71

Similar situation with me and my 3rd owner 1997 Mark VIII.

So I wonder what year F150? And also if the owner received a recall notice from Ford?

Octania

I had occasion to see said recent truck today

fascinating

like having xray vision

Only the metal parts remain, and not much of the aluminum. Master cylinder melted leaving only the piston.

mrhotrod

hey guy's , I can tell you what was done to fix this issue. I am a Ford tech so I have had to do hundreds of these. and the instance of there causing a fire was very low but they did happen and Ford is very proactive about anything going wrong. and they don't hide it like a lot of other makers like say BMW or GM with that ignition switch crap. but anyway Joe you are correct .. The problem was the unfused circuit and that was the fix , check and replace any leaking switches with a newer design and installing a multi fused jumper harness at the switch. if you have a vehicle that was involved in that recall you can verify it has been fixed by the presence of that jumper harness added in at that place.

mrhotrod

if you get a recall notice don't ignore it lol.. but always something you should check when you buy a used vehicle is have the vin checked for recalls. the previous owner may not have cared.

p.s. if my dealership had sold that truck without making sure all safety recalls have been done on it they would be in very deep doo. but a non ford car is another story so it's best to make sure yourself.

olds 307 and 403

That makes sense. Brake, ATF or any automotive fluid have high boiling/flash points. Otherwise they would spontaneously combust during normal use.

mrhotrod

yes, the brake fluid wasn't igniting it was causing an electrical short at the connector and the wiring was catching on fire. some of the vehicles also had the cruise control module mounted below the master cylinder and guess what ? the wiring also goes right to that module so it was possible for the brake fluid to travel through the wiring harness all the way down and into the connector at the cruise module ...all from leaking through the pressure switch into the connector. obviously it took some time for this to start happening. it does nasty things to wiring so keep that in mind.

Octania

Back when working at Fiasco Motors [FASCO], we had a bulletin from Ford about seat motors. It was serious yet funny.

For the Ford Exploder [sic] model seat motors, no smoke or flame is permitted to be emitted from the motor under any conditions.

So, 1) Exploder eh? interesting...

2) uhm you can generate all the smoke and fire you need to run the seat motor, as long as it stays within the motor... ok....

mrhotrod

right lol you would not believe what they want you to do for some of those crazy recalls. some of the corrosion repair ones are really irritating to do. glue and clamping reinforcement plates on subframes and rear axles ( windstars )

mrhotrod

Windbus, Exploder, ConFusion, Fucus, just a few lol ..