Middian

It is interesting you mention this connection between the coil and the starter. Bought the car a few weeks ago. Car would start fine but after car would start i could hear the starter making some weird noise for about 2 or 3 second before going away(starter disengaging?) not sure how long the car was like this but it ran fine until a few days ago when i took my trip to Las Vegas from Los Angeles. So I make it to Las Vegas where the car dies again and I cant seem to get it started until I did what OLDSX reccomended I did. Car started, let it run for about 5 minutes, pulled off the ramp and the car just shut right off in drive at a stop, no die down , no nothing, just plain shut off. Called tripple A and got a jump but the starter wouldnt budge. Pulled it off and tested for a bad starter(which i found strange again because the starter worked just fine a few minutes ago and i never had cranking issues) So i replaced the starter and the car started up first crank. Ran it all day around town and it seemed fine to me. Next day we leave for California, car starts fine, drives fine for about 20 miles and it starts to die on the highway just like before, throttle half way open, 70mph. Happens a couple of times with me starting the car back up and it dying again until one time it just doesnt start. Pulled starter off, tested, starter engaged but did not spin. Another bad starter.... hmmmm... two starters in two days. Luckily it is under warranty and I replaced the starter yet again but this time i made sure to replace the coil as well. Here is the interesting part. I tested the old coil from penske and i wasnt getting any readings at all. I also noticed it didnt have a ignition coil resistor! It had a capacitor on the positive end but the auto parts man told me it was an am radio suppressor. new coil clearly stated to run it with a resistor which i could do because i dont know how to access the ignition switch or where to put it (i know this was a horrible idea but i HAD to get home that night. so i bought an extra coil in case that one burned up on the way home. i decided to leave the radio suppressor off as i dont use it. Again, car started RIGHT up. This time i got a little further out before the symptoms reappeared. The thing is, I managed to find a way to start the car back up before completely dying down. Car would lose power and slowly shut down (decreassing rpms untill total shut off)I would depress the gas pedal all the way down until juuust before it would shut off i would release and car would start back up, sometimes the car would stay on for a good while, sometimes i would have to fight to keep it running, sometimes car would not die down but it would be as if i lost spark INTERMITTENTLY and sporadically. Symptoms would definitely vary. One interesting thing i noticed as well it i would have the car running at a constant rpm and i could hear the exhaust tone change, it would quiet down a bit, sometimes i would head a tick or knock as well.. i was able to tell after i removed the mufflers fro being blown(expanded) and straight piped it for the trip home. Would back pressure have any play in this? Maybe elevation? i was 4000 ft above sea level where car usually runs at sea level. Just throwing as much ifo out there as possible to i can give you uys a better idea of whats going on and what isnt. also, dist/coil wire seems good. not lose no corrosion. This morning car wouldn't start again, replaced the coil the the spare but still wouldn't start so i dont believe this could be the coil

Middian

how would i test my condenser?

oldcutlass

Have you checked the condition of your points, dwell, and timing? Have you checked the voltage at the coil? Have you checked the wires from the coil to the points and the ground inside the distributor? Condensers are either good or bad, never in between. When they are bad the engine not run, it will miss, sputter and back fire.

Middian

Ill be doing that today but im not completely sure how to do so. If you can give me a quick run down on how to check these component that would be very helpful

Middian

I have all necessary tools and a voltmeter

Octania

points n condenser- replace with new. Look at the old pts for curiosity if you wish, and if there is a huge crater on one side and a mountain on the other side, the condenser was likely bad also.

tug on the wires in there, look for chafes, shorts, looseness.

Even if that does not cure the issue, it cannot hurt to have new pts.

wiggle the dist'r shaaft side to side when the pts are open, see if there is so much slop that the pts gap is changing visibly.

oldcutlass

Do you have a dwell meter and a timing light?

Middian

No dwell meter no timing light

oldcutlass

Do you have feeler gauges?

Middian

No but i can buy some at autozone

oldcutlass

Instead can you buy or borrow a tach/dwell meter and timing light? Then we can walk you through checking all of your ignition and getting it tuned up properly. If not, with some feeler gauges, a new set of points, and condenser, we probably can get your engine running close. Does your car have separate points and condenser under the distributor cap or a combo uniset?

In the mean time, perform the checks in post 42. Check the voltage at the coil+ to make sure you have 12v. Ohm the wire from the coil- to the points and wiggle it around through its entire length to make sure its not broken inside.

Middian

So i got the car home from las vegas last night and today the car started but died almost right away and didnt want to start again. Let it sit all day til about an hour ago when i pulled the distributor cap. I think the distributor is new because it sure looks new on the inside. The point contact didnt look corroded obviously as its new but i did notice it looked a little burned. Very grayish. Ill take photos tomorrow morning because i wouldnt be able to say if points and condenser are one piece or not. Ill look into borrowing those as well. All your help is much appreciated. Oh! By the way, after i pulled the distributor apart and checked the points I got in the car and it started right up. Hmm.

Railguy

When you say it doesn't start or starts hard do you mean it it won't turn over or it turns over but won't start.
railguy

Middian

turns over but wont start as if im getting no spark. sometimes car will start first try

MDchanic

ARE you getting a spark?

Better go here.

- Eric

Middian

Well the car is turning over but im getting no combustion. There are times when the car will start with no issue

MDchanic

So when it's not starting, have you checked for a spark?

- Eric

Middian

I havent done that. How would i check?

MDchanic

Have you read the link I posted?

- Eric

304forest

I run a holley and last year I could go a few miles then it would just die, let set for a few minutes then it would run a few more miles, problem was fuel filter in carb, your 4 barrel should have the same brass looking filter, mine was plugged enough to where the pump couldn't keep up because of the filter being plugged, when it would die the pressure would slowly fill carb,

Middian

ill do that today

Middian

So i cant manage to get my hands on a timing light or a dwell meter til after pay day. found some decently priced items on harbor freight website.
http://www.harborfreight.com/lcd-aut...kit-95670.html
http://www.harborfreight.com/timing-...nce-40963.html

in the mean time i will perform the full ignition system test and get back to you guys

oldcutlass

The timing light will probably work the meter is just a tach.
Tach/dwell

MDchanic

You're in LA where the weather is always nice - just pick 'em up at a yard sale.

- Eric

Railguy

There should be some on ebay. Timing lights and dwell meters have been obsolete for a long time. Unless you have a car that's 40 years old. Just be careful who you buy from.
Railguy

Middian

those items arent very common i dont think so haha
ill check ebay as well

MDchanic

Seriously?

I see them all the time.

Dwell/Tachs go for $2 to $10.

Timing lights usually $5 to $20.

Everybody who cleans out their garage has these on a table.

- Eric

Middian

not in Los Angeles. Not many people around here that would probably have one of these for sale

RROLDSX

Don't forget your 20% coupon available in most car mags

68442

Had this exact problem with two of my cars over the years and both times it was a faulty ignition switch( The one at the base of the steering column.)
With the vibration it would die intermitantly. Start up a few more miles die again. Bad/worn contacts inside switch.
No one has mentioned this, try it, easy enough to swap.

Middian

This makes a lot of sense however, correct me if im wrong here, if it were a bad ignition switch, wouldnt the car just not crank at all to begin with at all?

68442

Inside the switch there are many contacts. It is possible the contacts to "RUN" are not being made(Or grounded or open??) yet the contacts to crank are good. Open one up and you will see.

oldcutlass

You can eliminate all of the cars electrical system out of the scenario by removing the existing wires from the coil+ terminal and running a temporary 14-12ga jumper wire from the battery back to the coil+. Then start the car with the key, and see if your problem goes away. In order to turn the engine off the wire must be removed and the key turned off.

Just remember that the coil may over heat if the engine is run for a very long time.

Railguy

No the voltage to start the engine comes from the silanoid (12 volts),then when it starts and you turn the key to the run the 12 volt shuts off and 8 volts comes from the key . So if the key is the problem it would start then shut off as soon as the was turned to the run possession.
Railguy

Middian

So youre basically saying the ignition switch would not be at fault here as thats not whats happening to me, right? Also nobody has chimed in on the fact that im running a points ignition coil without the resistor that the coil is asking for. Do some coils have this built in? Is it common knowledge that all coils must have a resistor? Cause my last coil had a marking on it asking to run a resistor with coil but the newest coil i bought at oreillys(standard coil) doesnt have anything stating for a resistor to be paired with it

MDchanic

The wire feeding the coil is the resistor.

- Eric

Octania

the resistor wire looks a little different from a normal wire. Dashed line? Woven appearance? stray insulation fibers sticking out at the end? It's been a while.

So, make a long jumper wire and keep it in the car.

When you catch it misbehaving, connect battery + to coil +. If that cures the problem, then the feed to the coil is the issue. This is what used to be called "hotwiring" the ignition. It bypasses the ign switch and whatnot.

Oh, be aware that this cannot be done unless the ign switch is also "on" for some models because they use the ign switch to ground the ign wire if it is "off" to discourage hotwiring.

Middian

ok because ive heard there is a resistor that hooks to the positive of the coil and goes to the ignition switch causing the coil to run on 7 amos instead of 12 i believe, so the coil doesnt burn up. I shouldnt have a problem running the stick wires right? sorry im a little new to this

Railguy

I think it keeps the points from burning up. What Octania said is right just don't leave it on to long. Especially if the engine isn't running. If you haven't changed the points yet I'd do that first. If you don't have a dwell meter you should be able to use a feller gauge to get it close enough know if that is the problem .
Railguy

m371961

Do what Octania suggests.
Dwell meters are still being made and sold. Cheap also. Actron for one. I bought a new one a few months ago. Some of the older ones required batteries and I wanted to avoid that as my old ones had them and from disuse it would corrode.
Actron CP7605 at Amazon for 22.99 I prefer an analog for this.