Advice!!!
May 5th, 2014, 08:57 PM
#1
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Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 17
Advice!!!
I was just given a 1977 Cutlass S 4 door hardtop Sedan with 80 K and all original W/ exception of an aftermarket Ac (Mark IV )
These are the options from 1977
Ao1 Windows, Soft RayTinted $57.oo
B84 Moldings, Protective Side $45.00
Gu1 AXLE - 2.41 Ratio 0 .0000
L34 Engine, 350 V-8 ,4BBl $190.00
M38 Transmission, Turbo Hydra-Matic $289.00
QBW Tires, FR78X15 White Stripe $88.00
U63 Radio, AM Pushbutton $ 79.00
Trim: 18 $ 748.00
69 Metallic Brown $ 233.00
$ 5,367.65
Should I keep it original or throw Duals, Higher CFM carbs and intakes etc while keeping the original intake and Quadra-Jet for a possible ( not probable) later sale? What is it worth in great running all original condition? The only wear is driver side bench seat and corner dash on same side (imagine that!)
I don't care about turning into a "muscle car" but how can I increase a few HP without affecting Value? It's not a top o the line but 4 doors this nice are rare. What about vinyl tops?
I just love Cutlass' as this is my 3rd 77 (2 earlier Supreme's and 1 73 Supreme) and affecting value is a concern but I really don't see it being 4 sale. Please help me balance my concerns! I know it's no 69 442 Hurst but IT IS BEAUTIFUL!!!
These are the options from 1977
Ao1 Windows, Soft RayTinted $57.oo
B84 Moldings, Protective Side $45.00
Gu1 AXLE - 2.41 Ratio 0 .0000
L34 Engine, 350 V-8 ,4BBl $190.00
M38 Transmission, Turbo Hydra-Matic $289.00
QBW Tires, FR78X15 White Stripe $88.00
U63 Radio, AM Pushbutton $ 79.00
Trim: 18 $ 748.00
69 Metallic Brown $ 233.00
$ 5,367.65
Should I keep it original or throw Duals, Higher CFM carbs and intakes etc while keeping the original intake and Quadra-Jet for a possible ( not probable) later sale? What is it worth in great running all original condition? The only wear is driver side bench seat and corner dash on same side (imagine that!)
I don't care about turning into a "muscle car" but how can I increase a few HP without affecting Value? It's not a top o the line but 4 doors this nice are rare. What about vinyl tops?
I just love Cutlass' as this is my 3rd 77 (2 earlier Supreme's and 1 73 Supreme) and affecting value is a concern but I really don't see it being 4 sale. Please help me balance my concerns! I know it's no 69 442 Hurst but IT IS BEAUTIFUL!!!
Last edited by jpb123; May 7th, 2014 at 07:57 PM. Reason: more info
May 5th, 2014, 09:21 PM
#2
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Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Evansville, IN
Posts: 10,305
A 2.41 axle? I did not know they went that high. That would put you about 2200ish at 70, nice highway gear. However, if you want performance, that rear would have to go. You need to figure out how well the engine will breathe through the stock heads before you go throwing exhaust, intake and carbs at it. Find what the weakest link is and fix it first (and it's not the intake or the quadrajet right now.)
As for value, good news and bad news. Those cars aren't worth much, nor will they be any time soon. Anything post 72 is taking a hit, although the 83-87s have an increasing following. Anything 4 door is taking a hit. I would say, without pictures, that it's probably worth ~4-5k, and nothing you do to it other than trash it will change that too much.
The bad news is it isn't worth much, but that's the good news, too. This thing is crying out for a budget sleeper build. Get a posi 3.33ish or lower rear end and swap that out. That will absolutely wake the car up, and it may be all you want from it. To realize big improvements from the engine, you'll have to throw decent coin at it, and maybe the car isn't worth it, so try the rear end first.
As for value, good news and bad news. Those cars aren't worth much, nor will they be any time soon. Anything post 72 is taking a hit, although the 83-87s have an increasing following. Anything 4 door is taking a hit. I would say, without pictures, that it's probably worth ~4-5k, and nothing you do to it other than trash it will change that too much.
The bad news is it isn't worth much, but that's the good news, too. This thing is crying out for a budget sleeper build. Get a posi 3.33ish or lower rear end and swap that out. That will absolutely wake the car up, and it may be all you want from it. To realize big improvements from the engine, you'll have to throw decent coin at it, and maybe the car isn't worth it, so try the rear end first.
May 5th, 2014, 09:52 PM
#3
Connoisseur d'Junque
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: The Hudson Valley
Posts: 21,183
Your first order of business would be to wake up that smog motor (cam, compression, etc.).
Frankly, it sounds like this is a nice original car, so I'd recommend just keeping it like it is.
CollectorCarMarket Review says $2,475 in #3 condition, which is what this sounds like.
I'd agree with that - Somewhere south of three grand.
Doesn't matter. It's worth $__t. Do whatever you want to it, and you really can't lose.
That being said, I always feel that when presented with a nice, original car, you have a moral obligation to preserve it, within reason.
- Eric
May 5th, 2014, 10:22 PM
#4
Just an Olds Guy
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
A nice original car GIVEN to you? You owe it nothing. Drive it and only spend $$ on it if you feel like you have nothing else to spend it on. A 77 4 door colonade sedan is nothing special.
Only thing I'd change to increase performance is change the gears from 2.41 to 2.93 or 3.08. If you do that, you'll also have to change the speedo gear accordingly. A 350 should move that car along nicely with the right gear selection.
Only thing I'd change to increase performance is change the gears from 2.41 to 2.93 or 3.08. If you do that, you'll also have to change the speedo gear accordingly. A 350 should move that car along nicely with the right gear selection.
May 6th, 2014, 08:02 PM
#9
Proud Viet Nam Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Rowlett, TX
Posts: 9,971
Don't worry about resale. It will never be a lot so do what you like to the car and enjoy it. You will have to do a gear change if you ever plan on getting any kind of performance from it. I have never heard of gears that high.
May 7th, 2014, 08:00 PM
#11
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Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 17
I've had 2 77 2 door and 1 73 2 door! I love the 76 & 77's look! They are what I like although I know they don't have he HP and collectability of the 67- 72's but I LOVE my 1st 77 2 dr! I haven't driven this one yet, the 81 year old man has the pulleys outa line and he just gave it to me! It runs well though but I have'nt had time to align them properly to assure they won't get thrown off on a trip!
I don't really wanna BUILDit. I've just seen some 2 dr 77' Supreme's for like 12 grand so I didn't wanna do anything that might affect the value too much even though I know a 2 dr usually brings less!
The 2.41 ratio is what is on my dealer copy so I guess it's right.I really like your 76, 76 Olds and all you guy's pics! Thanks again for all your help!
I don't really wanna BUILDit. I've just seen some 2 dr 77' Supreme's for like 12 grand so I didn't wanna do anything that might affect the value too much even though I know a 2 dr usually brings less!
The 2.41 ratio is what is on my dealer copy so I guess it's right.I really like your 76, 76 Olds and all you guy's pics! Thanks again for all your help!
May 7th, 2014, 10:01 PM
#12
Hookers under Hood
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,543
Put-r-ther thanks jpb123 I like Eric's 67 much better than the 76 but I could never come up with that amount of $$$ to get one. Hey post some pics and let us have a looksee, we all like new pics here.
May 8th, 2014, 05:27 PM
#13
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Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 17
I will post pics soon. IMHO I give it a mid 2 condition. It has seat wear and a couple of scratches where Mr Patrick ran it in my ditch but no rust! I just didn't know if cutting the caty off and dualling it (OK in GA I think) and throwing a little Edelbrock or Holley Carb/intake would affect the "original" status!
I kinda like the "open slate" thing!!! It's what I like (almost, I prefer 2 doors) and I can do what I want w/ no major value effect! Thanks men!!
P.S. What is that badass pink machine MDmechanic?
May 8th, 2014, 05:29 PM
#14
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Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 17
I'l post some soon and what a profile pic!!! 1 happy gent and 2 beautiful ladies!
May 8th, 2014, 06:40 PM
#15
Connoisseur d'Junque
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: The Hudson Valley
Posts: 21,183
1973 Oldsmobile Delta 88 Royale convertible.
- Eric
May 8th, 2014, 07:31 PM
#16
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Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 17
A 2.41 axle? I did not know they went that high. That would put you about 2200ish at 70, nice highway gear. However, if you want performance, that rear would have to go. You need to figure out how well the engine will breathe through the stock heads before you go throwing exhaust, intake and carbs at it. Find what the weakest link is and fix it first (and it's not the intake or the quadrajet right now.)
As for value, good news and bad news. Those cars aren't worth much, nor will they be any time soon. Anything post 72 is taking a hit, although the 83-87s have an increasing following. Anything 4 door is taking a hit. I would say, without pictures, that it's probably worth ~4-5k, and nothing you do to it other than trash it will change that too much.
The bad news is it isn't worth much, but that's the good news, too. This thing is crying out for a budget sleeper build. Get a posi 3.33ish or lower rear end and swap that out. That will absolutely wake the car up, and it may be all you want from it. To realize big improvements from the engine, you'll have to throw decent coin at it, and maybe the car isn't worth it, so try the rear end first.
As for value, good news and bad news. Those cars aren't worth much, nor will they be any time soon. Anything post 72 is taking a hit, although the 83-87s have an increasing following. Anything 4 door is taking a hit. I would say, without pictures, that it's probably worth ~4-5k, and nothing you do to it other than trash it will change that too much.
The bad news is it isn't worth much, but that's the good news, too. This thing is crying out for a budget sleeper build. Get a posi 3.33ish or lower rear end and swap that out. That will absolutely wake the car up, and it may be all you want from it. To realize big improvements from the engine, you'll have to throw decent coin at it, and maybe the car isn't worth it, so try the rear end first.
May 8th, 2014, 09:24 PM
#17
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Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 17
I Really just wanna make 200 or so hp instead of the 170 or so stock! I was thinking duals, intake, 650 - 800 cfm carb and I just noticed today the catalytic converter was gone already! I just wanna do bolt on stuff to an engine that runs fine as is!
I'll post more next week! I'm getting the pulleys realigned and puttin insurance on it so I'll roll out in it fer a spell!
I'll post more next week! I'm getting the pulleys realigned and puttin insurance on it so I'll roll out in it fer a spell!
Last edited by jpb123; May 8th, 2014 at 09:27 PM.
May 9th, 2014, 07:08 AM
#18
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 878
Probably just echoing everyone else, but keep the QJet (rebuild if needed) & add duals, then think about gears. Any real HP gains for a stock 77 350/4bbl engine will require more than bolt-ons. That engine option was decent for the era so enjoy the car but remain realistic about the value of any mid-70's 4-door.
May 26th, 2014, 05:33 PM
#19
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Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 17
so the 77 heads, can I get them machined with new stuff or are "NEW" 67-70 HEADS reworked A better option? I want reliabiity first as I only want 2 get 200 -270 Hp (170 stock). What is e best way o achieve this?
May 26th, 2014, 05:40 PM
#20
Just an Olds Guy
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
You're not building a high HP car. Before you start looking to increase the HP and torque rating on the engine, seriously look at changing the gears, rebuild the QJet, tune it properly and if you want to put on dual exhausts, that's fine. You'd be surprised how much those 3 things can do to improve the efficiency and performance of the car.
If you're still not happy with it after that, then look at options for machining the heads, valves and cam. But then you're into some $$$ and you might not like the results......Right now the cars not broken. Those 2.41:1 gears are what's killing it right now.
If you're still not happy with it after that, then look at options for machining the heads, valves and cam. But then you're into some $$$ and you might not like the results......Right now the cars not broken. Those 2.41:1 gears are what's killing it right now.
May 26th, 2014, 06:28 PM
#21
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,286
Pulleys not aligned?
was the water pump changed?
It did not leave the factory with pulleys out of line.
There are three different water pump lengths. They differ by almost exactly 1/2"
By far the most common is the 1973+ with AC WP which is 6.1" long from gasket to pulley mounting surface. Sounds like your engine should have that WP. It typically has a "3" or "4" cast into the RH outlet boss.
If your WP pulley is about 1/2" too far aft, and the WP looks fresh and/or replaced [new gasket...] then it's the wrong pump. There is a 1" shorter pump also but it's pretty old [mostly used pre-68] and pretty rare to run across one.
Also, look for the stamped PN and/or 2-letter CODES on your pulleys, usually right across from an "S" stamped into it. Get that info (or at least the diameter and overall width of the crank and WP pulleys). And, the 6-digit factory casting number off the WP near the inlet [radiator hose] nipple. If that is not present, then it may not be a factory casting, and you NEEEEED the length of the WP to get the right pulleys to match the WP or vice versa.
With that info, it can be determined how to get the pulleys aligned right.
can you provide photos?
was the water pump changed?
It did not leave the factory with pulleys out of line.
There are three different water pump lengths. They differ by almost exactly 1/2"
By far the most common is the 1973+ with AC WP which is 6.1" long from gasket to pulley mounting surface. Sounds like your engine should have that WP. It typically has a "3" or "4" cast into the RH outlet boss.
If your WP pulley is about 1/2" too far aft, and the WP looks fresh and/or replaced [new gasket...] then it's the wrong pump. There is a 1" shorter pump also but it's pretty old [mostly used pre-68] and pretty rare to run across one.
Also, look for the stamped PN and/or 2-letter CODES on your pulleys, usually right across from an "S" stamped into it. Get that info (or at least the diameter and overall width of the crank and WP pulleys). And, the 6-digit factory casting number off the WP near the inlet [radiator hose] nipple. If that is not present, then it may not be a factory casting, and you NEEEEED the length of the WP to get the right pulleys to match the WP or vice versa.
With that info, it can be determined how to get the pulleys aligned right.
can you provide photos?
May 27th, 2014, 07:29 PM
#23
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Thank You Octania. The waterpump has probably been changed but I know the AC is an add on.I saw the 87 year old man Monday who gave it to me but we were busy trying to crank his '46 FORD!!! He told me his wife bought the 77 from her mother who was the first owner! Mr Patrick did a wonderful job restoring the '46 and a 71 ford PU but he is a retired Army Colonel and eccentric as they come!
I broke down and took it to a local mechanic who is a great guy and his shop is right next to the CARQUEST that I ordered the new PS pump from. (Yeah, I did it with my little tire tool, I can not lie, oh no not I, Not even if I... catch it! while i was changing the PS belt ) That is why I let him have it! I don't have the tools or setup yet to tackle much and I have 80,000 since rebuild on a DAEWOO so I haven't had to worry much about busting knuckles!
I will pass it along to him though via copy and paste if it's cool with you because I also thought the water pump looked wrong and thank you for your help! I 'll also ask Mr. Patrick soon as I get a chance!
Thanks again for your generous input!
I broke down and took it to a local mechanic who is a great guy and his shop is right next to the CARQUEST that I ordered the new PS pump from. (Yeah, I did it with my little tire tool, I can not lie, oh no not I, Not even if I... catch it! while i was changing the PS belt ) That is why I let him have it! I don't have the tools or setup yet to tackle much and I have 80,000 since rebuild on a DAEWOO so I haven't had to worry much about busting knuckles!
I will pass it along to him though via copy and paste if it's cool with you because I also thought the water pump looked wrong and thank you for your help! I 'll also ask Mr. Patrick soon as I get a chance!
Thanks again for your generous input!
May 28th, 2014, 03:06 PM
#24
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My gal was in the shop 2 day w/ the bolts out!!! I can pick her up at lunch or so! I'm giving up a free Santee-Cooper fishing trip to drive it!!!! I can't bear being 200 miles away when the hood shuts! I went with my buddy Syd as he as a shop stocked to the max and I do not own an air compressor! He has already cleaned off the intake and Carb! 60-80 dollars well spent!
Thank you friends and pics soon!!
Thank you friends and pics soon!!
May 28th, 2014, 08:24 PM
#25
Hookers under Hood
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,543
Have you decided on what bolt on upgrades you are going to do? My 76 is much the same as your 77 170hp. A 3:42 rear gear made a huge difference in my car I get rubber out of second gear now .
I also added a few other things but the rear was the best seat of the pants bang for the buck. I may be pushing 200 hp maybe for sure no more with the changes I made
Waiting to see pics !!!
Eric
I also added a few other things but the rear was the best seat of the pants bang for the buck. I may be pushing 200 hp maybe for sure no more with the changes I made
Waiting to see pics !!!
Eric
May 30th, 2014, 05:06 PM
#26
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Not yet brother! really haven't driven her yet! My mechanic found some quick money projects so I told him to go for it! He also ran into some welds with the 1985 Mark V AC add on while changing the PS pump. I've had 2 prior 77's and 1 73 and I finally poked a hole in the pump using the tire tool as a lever! I don't know when the 87 year old man got the alignment of the belts off. He has driven it here and there with no problems till he ran it in the ditch at my house pickin up his dog I babysat during the day. The water pump looks new but I can't read his writing on the service record. Did you have a severe mpg drop with the new rear gear? I know so little about gear ratios as the relate to HP. How did it affect your top end? Where did you find the 3:42? Is it Posi and was it a straight swapover?
I promise pics as soon as I get her back! It's a real nice all original 4 door metallc brown w/ pretty much minor Cutlass S options ( listed up top) but in really nice shape, at least a mid 2!
Thank you so much for your help and I LOVE your ride!!! Can you do video on this forum?
I promise pics as soon as I get her back! It's a real nice all original 4 door metallc brown w/ pretty much minor Cutlass S options ( listed up top) but in really nice shape, at least a mid 2!
Thank you so much for your help and I LOVE your ride!!! Can you do video on this forum?
May 31st, 2014, 08:52 PM
#27
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I love It!!!!! Drove her today after Syd got the pulleys aligned!!! 100 or so trouble free miles!!! Not quite as stout as my 77 Supreme, but soooo smooth!! Didn't hoss it much but shifted into passing gear @ 55-75 w no hickups! Battery charged right up w/ no floating headlights!!! Need new plugs n wires but unnoticeable; man, what a ride !!! I have 2 new ( with tities) 215/75/15 s on the back and 1 215/75/15 on the front and 1 195/60/15 on the passenger! I can't wait to even her up front! I got 2 new identical 15's on te DAEWOO so she'll be right soon! Pics or vid soon!!!
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