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'70 442 Starter brace mounting - starter case differences
A quick edit on this in case anyone in the future searches for the same info and pulls up this thread... Without having to scroll through this whole thread and the various twists and turns it holds, there is no difference in the placement of the brace mounting hole on the side, no matter the service duty of the starter itself. There is a difference in where and how the solenoid attaches at the front edge, but that is all. This is in reference to the 110387 and 110389 starters and others that share the same housing (of which there are many).
Referring to this thread and a few others I have dug up... I'm trying to get things buttoned up on my 442 and I am having zero luck in getting the starter brace installed. It misses the block hole by a good inch in distance and alignment when attached to the side of the starter. As seen in the above post, there are case differences in the HD starter. I don't see where anyone has compared the mounting hole placement for the brace and I'm wondering if a new starter is in my future (I have the smaller/incorrect starter in place now). I know many may say just leave the brace off, but the reason I'm down there in the first place is that the positive cable had moved to the side over time, melted on the exhaust, and did a number on my wiring and some metal pieces. I'd rather have the brace in place as designed. And yes, I'm installing it right side up, not upside down Thoughts on the starter cases?
ALSO - any tips on removing the driver's side exhaust manifold are welcome. I have a 4-speed, and there appears to be no way on God's green earth to slide this thing out no matter what I've removed - starter, exhaust pipe, etc. Won't come out the top or the bottom - not even close. Thanks for any tips!!
Last edited by BSiegPaint; June 15th, 2021 at 06:27 AM.
Well, I dug out some older starters and I don't see a difference in the mounting holes. I swapped to the higher torque starter, and nothing really changed. As nearly as I can see, the positive battery cable is the issue, with no room to fit under the bracket as it should (I've gotten the bracket to within about 1/2" of fitting). This is a reproduction cable - I'm just wondering if it's too large for this space - and if so, do I run it outside the brace? The ASM shows the cable distinctly in the space under the bracket hole, indicating the cable goes under the bracket. And the reason I want the brace installed is to keep the cable from melting on something hot again... Ugh!!!
And I still can't get the exhaust manifold out. It seems the only way to do that is tilt the motor, and I'm finding it hard to believe that's my only option.
I think either one should fit Bob. But do you have the thin arm type or the larger shield type? Photos attached are what I'm calling the shield type and I'm not sure which was correct for 1970. I've removed several of these but never put one on, can you share a picture with us of what your up against?
I think either one should fit Bob. But do you have the thin arm type or the larger shield type? Photos attached are what I'm calling the shield type and I'm not sure which was correct for 1970. I've removed several of these but never put one on, can you share a picture with us of what your up against?
I have the thin arm type, not the wider design. My third attempt this evening resulted in my snapping off one of the harness connection bolts on the solenoid, so now I'm out of the game for a while until I can find another. I exhausted a few local parts places with no luck this evening, and can't seem to find one online. I really think my issue is the thickness of the positive cable. I'll try again tomorrow if I can scare up a solenoid or another starter. What I'm finding is that I can't install the starter with the top brace bolt installed, so it has to go in last, after installing the stud in the side of the starter. But at that point, once I get it rotated up in to position, it's held away from the block mounting point because I can't tuck the positive battery cable between the solenoid and the block.
Last edited by BSiegPaint; June 12th, 2021 at 08:54 PM.
OK, here's a couple pictures I snapped tonight. I came up with the narrow arm which you said you have. I also set two starters side by side and it looks like the holes are in the same location. Yeah, if the cable is too large maybe that's where its having the problem. I've got a 1970 442 4 speed car too, but mine has been messed with so many times not much is original. Are you sure about the location where the battery cable should go?
The 'thin" brace is correct for '70, but either style will work. You've got to somehow get the positive cable tucked under. Does your cable have the correct 90 degree terminal?. My '68 442 has a very thick pos. cable & it fits ok. I put up a pic of my friends W31. We used the later "shield" style brace since we have headers on that car, everything tucks behind the brace just fine but it's tight!
WOW, THANK YOU guys. Yeah, I've got the cable with the correct bend - and it looks to be the same one you show, Rob. So I see there's room to get it in there - once I find a new solenoid. The biggest hindrance is the exhaust pipe and manifold that are in the way. I'm not sure how they got them in there, honestly. Someone installed 3" studs on the manifold, and it makes it impossible to release the exhaust pipe completely, so I can only push it aside. If I could remove the manifold somehow, all this space would be freed up to apply a little push here and there to get the brace bolts in the right place.
So - once I find a solenoid I'm going to try once more to start the upper brace bolt and then work the starter up into place. I think that's the only way to get the entire assembly where it needs to be.
I think you are supposed to have bolts for the exhaust pipe, not studs.
Completely correct - and now I can't get the manifolds out to remove the rusted in studs and replace them with bolts. This car is a rabbit hole, and I'm in deeper and deeper every step I take...
Mrolds, that’s just the stuff I needed last night…. I’ll follow up via PM.
So it was a really difficult install, really hinging on the fact that the positive cable didn’t care to tuck back where it should, and the exhaust manifold studs - which shouldn’t be there - interfering with everything. I hogged out the holes on the brace - that was the only way to gather some wiggle room. I had to remove the inner starter bolt, loosen the outer, install the exhaust pipe (but remove the exhaust manifold bolts) and dance an Irish jig to get everything to slide into place all at once. Then tighten bolts one by one, in the correct order, to get everything to button up.
First I had to repair this crimp connection on the purple wire, which obviously came apart. And I repaired it as correctly as possible, matching the 10 gauge wire and soldering the connection after removing the crimp connector. A new harness is on order.
When the brace popped into place there was all kinds of room for the wires above and below. But here’s where I found out the exhaust manifold position wouldn’t allow the flange to slide back up. This is where the idiot who installed the manifold studs really made it to the top of my s**t list.
Welcome to the dance… all the parts intermingled and attached as they should be. Clutch spring bracket, starter brace, wiring on solenoid bottom, positive cable on top. If I could have figure out how to get the exhaust manifold out, I would have had the studs removed - no such luck.
The car now starts on the first twist of the key, but all is not well, of course. Once I got everything wrapped up and done, starting the engine turned on the GEN light bright as the sun. No idea what’s up with that - it’s now the next project in a long line. Every day is a new surprise, unfortunately.
Last edited by BSiegPaint; June 14th, 2021 at 02:53 PM.
Think of all the stuff you are learning. There will be a test later and then a diploma from 'you know who',
Oh, I'm looking for that diploma lol!! Alternator was bad - probably from the spark show the last time the positive cable grounded to the exhaust. Got a new one from Autozone - and it's bad. Something banging on the inside. So the Never Ending Story continues, but it seems to be near the end of this chapter. more tomorrow, I'm sure.
And after finding out Autozone Duralast alternators aren't meant to be clocked (oops), I got a replacement that works and the car runs. At least it ran for 20 minutes without catching on fire, shooting sparks, belching fluids, leaking oil, or otherwise rendering itself inoperable. Now, after two months (three?) of fighting through mess after mess, I should be able to get the title changed and put tags on this thing - hopefully to enjoy it for a while before a complete teardown this winter. Still plenty of things to keep me busy, but it should go and stop and be safe from this point. I should yell a big THANK YOU to everyone who has given me information and shared tips and tricks along the way. It wouldn't be running without PM's and threads and the Search function on this site!!!!
I strongly suggest that you replace the harnesses under the hood. It is small dollars compared to burning up your car. Those splices are trouble.
And, you need to take a close look at the factory assembly manual. The set up for the clutch spring has it attached to the side of the starter with the thin brace.
I have oversized battery cables with no fitment issues.
Okay unless you are building a # correct car for show judging ect. Why would you want to install those old heavy junk POS even if it's new it's a POS. Go do yourself a favor install a powermaster 9510 mini starter and you will never look back at that POS from the factory starter.
I strongly suggest that you replace the harnesses under the hood. It is small dollars compared to burning up your car. Those splices are trouble.
And, you need to take a close look at the factory assembly manual. The set up for the clutch spring has it attached to the side of the starter with the thin brace.
I have oversized battery cables with no fitment issues.
The harnesses have been on order since February. No one can seem to get them done faster. And you can see in the last pic the clutch spring is attached to the side of the starter with the factory tab that attaches on the outside of the brace. I got the starter cable to fit under the brace without crowding once it was pushed a bit. Just a tight area when you're working from below. Thanks!
Okay unless you are building a # correct car for show judging ect. Why would you want to install those old heavy junk POS even if it's new it's a POS. Go do yourself a favor install a powermaster 9510 mini starter and you will never look back at that POS from the factory starter.
Yeah, this time it's going to end up being a show car. This one will be at MCACN in Chicago this November, so I'm just getting it back together as it should be so it can be part of the Barn Find section. Then next year it goes full resto.
Alternator was bad - probably from the spark show the last time the positive cable grounded to the exhaust. Got a new one from Autozone - and it's bad.
I worked at auto parts stores through high school and college, and even back then we had so many alternators that were bad out of the box that we tested them before letting the customer leave the store.
I worked at auto parts stores through high school and college, and even back then we had so many alternators that were bad out of the box that we tested them before letting the customer leave the store.
O'Riley's will still test them for you. Starters and alternators.
June 12th, 2021, 07:00 AM
Thoughts on the starter cases?
