Kevin W

Does a 68 442 W30 4 speed get a fan shroud?

Looking at the assembly manual, section 11, page 113 has the following verbiage:

NOTE:
DO NOT INSTALL FAN SHROUD ON CARS WITH 35W30 WITH 35M21
INSTALL FAN SHROUD ON CARS WITH 35W30 WITH M40

This tells me no, it shouldn't get the shroud but I've seen a few 4 speed W30 with the shroud installed (doesn't mean it's correct, though).

Kevin W

Anyone?

dnmfranco

yes only the ram rods did not in 68
Lets put this way have not seen a 68 w-30 w/o it
On the Ram Rods they were omitted un-intentionally

Kevin W

Thanks Dean.

dnmfranco

np

Paladin31

Hey Dean did your 69 come with a shroud?

dnmfranco

yes sir

Paladin31

interesting, I bought mine in 79 and it didn't have one then....I never gave it a second thought, well that's not correct, it did seem odd to have the 4 row radiator and fan clutch etc, to achieve better performance (clutch) & greater heat dissipation(4 row) but no shroud to maximize draw-thru...

dnmfranco

Yeah in 69 they came w them , 68 oddly enough they were omitted from the punch cards mistakenly as well as the sway bar and boxed arms

Paladin31

sway bars & boxed arms are one of the many reasons I have loved the W-31's so much, handle so tight [as compared to the BBO] and most other offerings back then, course a bucket load of HP doesn't hurt either! Cool info, Thanks Dean!

Kevin W

interesting! The 68 ram rods didn't get the rear sway bar and boxed control arms. I didn't know that.

dnmfranco

funny story:
When I finally struck a deal w Ebbs on my Ram Rod while looking underneath it realized they were missing (have walked around this car from 2007-2011 never went underneath).
Also no shroud, so thinking John took the shroud and knew the car was raced so thought maybe original owner removed them for whatever reason.

So in summer of 2011 get car , now I am on a mission. I buy boxed arms, sway bar and shroud (correct 68 now not as common as 69)
I put the shroud in and getting ready for arms and sway bar.

I got Dave's info from Michigan most knowledgeable guy on Ram Rods out there, well after talking to him I explain the missing components and how I diligently found them. He laughs, "Dean they didn't come w them they were omitted" I was like oh yeah I knew I was just going to put them on anyway (of course my attempt to save face) lol.

Now John who surprisingly thought they were missing.
Next day I am doing a fire drill removing that shroud.

It was pathetic because when I say mission I located these parts before the car came lol

dnmfranco

Kevin nice stable what do you have besides W-30?

wmachine

Ok, let's back up here. The assembly manual specifically says no fan shroud and we not only question it, but come away *believing* it should have just because we've seen ones with them?? That makes no sense to me at all. Unless there is more to the story, no they should *not* have a fan shroud. And I would figure by extension the W31s would not too, but I'd like to know how it was determined the the w31s were left off unintentionally. You said that Dave said "they didn't come with them", but that does not mean it was unintentional.

The FE2 suspension (with the rear sway bar) was not part of the W31 package in '68. It was "recommended", however.

dnmfranco

From what he told me or Glen Morris they were omitted by accident on the old IBM punch cards???

Also sent you an email re: WAC and meeting w my club

Kevin W

I found this to be interesting with this page of the assembly manual (section 11, page 113), these notes were added in mid and late production:

Revision G (1-29-68) added note:
NOTE:
DO NOT INSTALL FAN SHROUD ON CARS WITH 35W30 WITH 35M21
INSTALL FAN SHROUD ON CARS WITH 35W30 WITH M40

Revision H (3-1-68) added note:
NOTE:
DO NOT INSTALL FAN SHROUD ON CARS WITH 35W31 OPTION.

Kevin W

Dean,

I have in my stable:

71 Cutlass Supreme - My first car, dad brought it home in the spring of 1984, I'm the second owner.

71 442 4 speed, bought in 1995 finished restoration in 2000.

67 442 4 speed, purchased in 2010.

68 442 W30 4 speed, purchased in 2012 in the middle of frame off restoration.

wmachine

Okay, one thing at a time. First, shrouds. Both the W30 and the W31 had the V01 as a mandatory option. That got you the fan shroud. So the assembly manual had to specifically say that the 4-spd W30 and (all) W31 did not get the shroud. Sure, they would be omitted on the punch cards because they were not supposed to be there.
Another note too here: The date of the print revision was not always the date the change went into effect on the line. Sometime it was before and sometimes it was actually *after* the production line change. It helps to remember production was not an exact science. And changes on the fly did not always go A-Z.

I think where there is some confusion about "forgetting" has to do with the FE2 suspension. What was possibly forgotten was the availability of the Sport Suspension that included the rear sway bar. In fact the FE2 was not even brought out as an order option until into the '69 model year. So I believe none of the '68 W31s had the FE2 (including the rear sway bar). And even after the FE2 became an ordering option in '69, it was still not part of the W31 (nor mandatory), as the W31 option read "FE2 recommended".

Kevin W

Kurt, I'm not trying to dispute you on this, just want to understand. What would give the line the authority to make a production change without the approval of the revision to the assembly manual? Perhaps there was red line paper work or memo.

dnmfranco

Okay spoke to Dave today he in fact says no 68's came w a shroud unless they were a/c cars.
Which is puzzling because my convert def had a shroud and it was a 68 fan shroud , but who knows.

Dave also mentioned no cutlasses received rear boxed arms and or rear sway bar not allocated for that series. But he did say FE2 was available for the Cutlass series except of course rear boxed and sway bar.

He also went into detail how 68 was such a unique year not only 4400 classification of 442 but the change over but how parts and packages were released by model series.

In addition in 68 is where they started using the IBM punch cards and reel to reel data banks which also had an impact how parts were released to specific series models whether it be the Cutlass line or the new 4400 line. Besides that he said the major source was books called "production parts lists" which listed the adds and deletes for each option and combination their of.

He also stated everything changed after 68 in that systems far as data processing became more sophisticated and easier to designate parts to specific models and furthermore to designated options and combination of options.

With that being said a worker or workers on up tine hours could have slipped a shroud in here or there.

But in conclusion his theme was 68 was an unique year.

His account for the Ram Rod building is even more fascinating - in what he calls the "white glove treatment" and rush job.

Fascinating guy who was there and a wealth of first hand knowledge

hope that helps and Kevin so I guess your car did not come w a shroud sorry for any confusion but have seen many as others apparently have.
Dean

Kevin W

Dean,

No apologizes necessary, thats what so great about this site and a forum, good stuff. I've never seen an original 68 W30, after searching the web and comparing it to the assembly manual, left me to pose this question. I strive to restore my cars back to original as much as possible.

So with this IBM punch card, was this similar to the build sheet?

Thank you for your time looking into this.

wmachine

Engineering would be doing the approval, of course. But they did not need to make the drawing change just to approve it. Sure they *should*, but the point is that it wasn't always done before the change on the line. This is something Dave has observed. And there are other instances of this too.


And this underscores that "how things were done" depends on the year to as the Production Control methods were continually evolving.

One small correction: The suspension that was available on the Cutlass that Dave was referring to without the rear sway bar was the FE1, not the FE2. (The FE2 added the rear sway bar to the FE1)

Absolutely.

dnmfranco

That's a good question if I had to guess perhaps yes.
Let me ask oh np love this stuff

dnmfranco

Kevin W

It just seams like there had to be some type of a process in which engineering authorized a deviation to the assembly manual, until the revision was made, via red lines or memo, Liaison engineering, something.
I can also see the case that the Production Parts List would in the this case remove the shroud and it took time for the assembly manual was updated to reflect it, in other words the two were in conflict.

Is it possible that design engineering controlled the Production Parts List and the assembly manuals were controlled by MEs (manufacturing engineers)?

Yeah, I know, picking the fly stuff out of the pepper.



Anyways, thank you Kurt and Dean, appreciate your time.

dnmfranco

I know almost seems absent of a "system" or lack there of.

Without knowing for sure like the rest of us I think 68 was one of those big transitional years in where things were evolving.
New body style, junior super car, 4400 series implemented and beginning of punch cards/ect.

I think you may be on to something far as the two working against each other because look how things were clearly spelled out in 69. That being only one year later.

Another interesting point Dave brought up was all parts came through the production process but not the case in 68 with the Ram Rods. But in 69 when it was an option normal protocol. Lol just think 68 was a really unique year and not just the cars.

442Fred

For whatever this is worth i have an original 68 w30 with 18,000 miles, auto trans, build date of 01D with heavy duty cooling and it does have a fan shroud. The water pump has been changed so possibly the shroud could have been added but it is a correct 68 shroud.

Don't know if this helps or makes it more confusing

allyolds68

The auto trans would have had the shroud according to the assembly manual.


I'd like to hear from more people that have documented W30's with an M21. The problem is there are so few that are documented it's harder than verifying a 7028253 carb ever existed. My personal opinion is that they didn't install the shroud on the stick W30's and if they are there now it's because they were added.


If you're restoring a car for show don't put the shroud on. You can't have points deducted because it's not there. If you're restoring it to drive I'd put one on.

Joevite12

purely from a driving point of view my 68 has a shroud but is to short hence i have an overheat problem which is why i want the longer 68 shroud

allyolds68

What do you mean by "short"? There is only one shroud for 68. If you're overheating you can probably make a 68 shroud work.

I took a non-heavy duty cooling core support, made the lower cradles narrower, put a single core aluminum radiator in it, modified a 67 top plate to look identical to a 68 four core top plate (fitting the narrower radiator), and shimmed a 68 shroud to sit against the radiator. I originally shimmed out the fan with an over-the-counter spacer to push it deeper into the shroud but I read somewhere that the fan isn't supposed to be deep into the shroud so I removed it.

I don't have a/c but it cools my 455 fine in the hottest of weather

Of course I don't care about originality either but at first glance you can't tell anything isn't stock

Joevite12

Okay