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I'm using W-31 for both years, but I am aware it was called Ram Rod in 68.
68 and 69 year Olds A bodies interest me for the reason that they are a little more complicated in performance order than 67 or 70. In 67, you had the 330 Cutlass, then jump to the 400E 442, and the 400E 442 W-30. In 70, you had the 350 Cutlass, the 350 W-31, the 455 442 and the 455 442 W-30.
In 68 and 69, there was a 350 Cutlass, 350 W-31, 400G 442, 400G 442 W-30, 455 H/O (and there were a couple engine variations in those.) The W-31 is rated at 325 HP, the 400G 442 is rated at 350, and the 455 442 in 70 is rated at 370 (I think those were right). Question I have for those that were there, or know otherwise personally, how close is a 68-69 W-31 to its 442 counterpart in performance? The gap is much wider in 70 due to the 455, but how close did that high-strung 350 get to catching the long stroke 400G in terms of street brawling and strip use?
Idle question, no real reason other than interest.
I'm using W-31 for both years, but I am aware it was called Ram Rod in 68.
68 and 69 year Olds A bodies interest me for the reason that they are a little more complicated in performance order than 67 or 70. In 67, you had the 330 Cutlass, then jump to the 400E 442, and the 400E 442 W-30. In 70, you had the 350 Cutlass, the 350 W-31, the 455 442 and the 455 442 W-30.
In 68 and 69, there was a 350 Cutlass, 350 W-31, 400G 442, 400G 442 W-30, 455 H/O (and there were a couple engine variations in those.) The W-31 is rated at 325 HP, the 400G 442 is rated at 350, and the 455 442 in 70 is rated at 370 (I think those were right). Question I have for those that were there, or know otherwise personally, how close is a 68-69 W-31 to its 442 counterpart in performance? The gap is much wider in 70 due to the 455, but how close did that high-strung 350 get to catching the long stroke 400G in terms of street brawling and strip use?
Idle question, no real reason other than interest.
From my recollections......
68 and 69 had the H/O's and a few W-31's out on the street to "play" at night. You never saw a 68 or 69 442.
At the local drag strip you saw a few H/O's and a smaller number of W-31's. The 442's were 65, 66, 67, 70. .
Personally, I think a W-31 would run within a couple car lengths (ahead or behind) of a 400G. A 400G was about as fast as a "Nail head" 401 Buick. A 400E would easily beat a 400G.
Last edited by OLDSter Ralph; November 4th, 2023 at 08:16 PM.
Reason: clarified
I'm using W-31 for both years, but I am aware it was called Ram Rod in 68.
Option code was the same in either case, wasn't it?
Forgive me, because although I was in fact "there" I was just a bit too young to be driving any of them off the showroom floor. However, my recollection from magazine road tests of the day and other reading that I've done was that G-block '68-9 W-30s with minor tuning or tweaking would maybe dip below 14 @ 100 MPH+ with a good tailwind, W-31s would run mid to high 14s/mid-90s under similar circumstances, and a 4-4-2 G-block would manage low 15's/low 90s out of the box.
By the time I got any actual seat time in any of these, they were at least ten years old and it was hard to find one that was close to factory stock. Even by then many of the G-blocks had been swapped for 455s.
Please don't make me dig through boxes of old magazines to verify any of this.
My bone stock 68 442 would run neck and neck with 396/325 hp chevelles. Not the 375hp. 400g just not super quick..now considering the average curb weight of a 69 442 3660 lbs depending on trim and a 69 w31 was 3465 depending on trim..If both were bone stock 4 speed cars with equally talented drivers I would put my money on the w31..My buddy had a 69 cutlass 4 speed 4 barrel factory car that was very very quick, it wasn’t a w31, but his out ran a lot of stocker cars of many models. Of course my opinion on this is speculative at best but I would bet money on the w31
As the current caretaker of a 69 W-30 4 speed with a 342 rear, and a 69 W-31 4 speed with a 342 ( original 391 removed for my driving pleasure ), I think on the strip the W31 would outrun the W30. I have never had either on the strip, or really "beat the eyesballs" out of either car, but I think the lighter weight W31 would be a factor.
Im not into the technical data of either car, but just street driving them both, I feel the W31 would be a winner of the two on the strip....JMO!
I am in the process of restoring a 69 HO, and it will be next summer before it is done, but I assume that car would be the winner between the three of them!
Wow, that's about as good of an apples-apples comparison as you could hope to get. Pretty cool that the lighter 350 car is so noticeably quicker during street driving. I'm curious as to the options on both those cars - PS, PB, AC, etc.
The W31's really need the stiffer gears to run well (3:91-4:33).I have seen them in the 12's at Purestock, but just how stock they are is unknown to me. I have somewhere a list of times from back in the day, where a '68 W30 with 4:33 gears ran in the 13.30's.
The history on my W31 is that a gentleman In Massachusetts bought it to race. It was sold thru Berejik in July 69. At some point they removed the 391 and installed 466 gears. It was raced for one or two seasons ( info passed on to me by the 2nd owner ). It was sold to 2nd owner in 72 / 73, and he also raced it for a year or so, then it got parked, and he ended up losing it in a divorce in the mid eighties. It remained parked until the third owner ended up with it sometime around 92/93. The 4th owner keep it until I purchased it in 2012, still having the 466 gears in it. I had 391’s put back in it in 2019, but decided last year to put in 342’s so it would be driver friendly.
It was a beast with the 466, but not road friendly!
when the time comes to sell it, the original 391 will be reinstalled and the 466 will go with it.
Ive been searching for photos of the car on or at the track, but have come up empty. The car still has original paint on it and you can see outlines of the Berejik lettering on the rear qtrs, and the original owners name outlined on the driver side roof.
I have copy of the window sticker ( courtesy of George Berejik via the 4th owner ), and the original top copy of the invoice!
A very cool car imo…and happy to be the caretaker for now!
I think that he may have had some factory experimental parts from back in the day. It was there this year running even quicker times. I think that the guys from Inline Tube own it now. The '68 Ram Rod that Ligenfelter ran in NHRA back in the day, ran 12:70's, but that would have been with slicks, headers, etc.
I think that he may have had some factory experimental parts from back in the day. It was there this year running even quicker times. I think that the guys from Inline Tube own it now. The '68 Ram Rod that Ligenfelter ran in NHRA back in the day, ran 12:70's, but that would have been with slicks, headers, etc.
Which leads us down this rabbit hole: I had assumed we were talking about showroom stock. If modifications are permitted, things can change in a hurry.
My OP was bone stock thinking. Thanks to all that have replied so far. I had not mentioned rears, as since it's an engine to engine comparison, I would think a fair comparison would involve the same rear ratio.
Further thinking: For automatics, the 400 / th 400 will lose a little HP to the trans over the 350 / th 350 combo.
Like Andy says, the reduced weight also matters.
This jives with what I thought, the 68 69 442 was an underperformer for its intended role.
This jives with what I thought, the 68 69 442 was an underperformer for its intended role.
Not really, not for its intended role. While the weakness of the G is almost universally acknowledged to the extent that it's become something of a tired trope, off the showroom floor the '68 4-4-2 would run 15.1 in the low 90s. I believe it was equipped with a TH400, but I don't recall the gears. This was mid-pack for A-bodies that year, and also competitive with midsized muscle car offerings from other manufacturers. I have a 1968 MT comparison somewhere that says so. Don't make me dig it out.
When we start to talk about modification and potential, however the G-motor starts to get left behind.
The history on my W31 is that a gentleman In Massachusetts bought it to race. It was sold thru Berejik in July 69. At some point they removed the 391 and installed 466 gears. It was raced for one or two seasons ( info passed on to me by the 2nd owner ). It was sold to 2nd owner in 72 / 73, and he also raced it for a year or so, then it got parked, and he ended up losing it in a divorce in the mid eighties. It remained parked until the third owner ended up with it sometime around 92/93. The 4th owner keep it until I purchased it in 2012, still having the 466 gears in it. I had 391’s put back in it in 2019, but decided last year to put in 342’s so it would be driver friendly.
It was a beast with the 466, but not road friendly!
when the time comes to sell it, the original 391 will be reinstalled and the 466 will go with it.
Ive been searching for photos of the car on or at the track, but have come up empty. The car still has original paint on it and you can see outlines of the Berejik lettering on the rear qtrs, and the original owners name outlined on the driver side roof.
I have copy of the window sticker ( courtesy of George Berejik via the 4th owner ), and the original top copy of the invoice!
A very cool car imo…and happy to be the caretaker for now!
Extremely cool. Thanks for the additional information. To be honest, I'm surprised that car had the lungs to make it to the end of the quarter with 466 gears. Good lord! I would have thought it would run out of breath before the finish line.
The first time that I saw Casey Marks car there, it was certified factory stock. At that time, they would remove one head, and check cam lift, valves etc. to make sure that it was in the parameters of factory stock. I believe that they did allow for a higher compression with carbon build up on the valves. The engine was then sealed, with the head bolts painted to ensure that no tampering could go un noticed. But there are cars that compete in the F.A.S.T. drags that show up there now, so I have to assume that the term "factory stock" no longer applies. Sorry if I got off track a bit.
Not really, not for its intended role. While the weakness of the G is almost universally acknowledged to the extent that it's become something of a tired trope, off the showroom floor the '68 4-4-2 would run 15.1 in the low 90s. I believe it was equipped with a TH400, but I don't recall the gears. This was mid-pack for A-bodies that year, and also competitive with midsized muscle car offerings from other manufacturers. I have a 1968 MT comparison somewhere that says so. Don't make me dig it out.
When we start to talk about modification and potential, however the G-motor starts to get left behind.
Extremely cool. Thanks for the additional information. To be honest, I'm surprised that car had the lungs to make it to the end of the quarter with 466 gears. Good lord! I would have thought it would run out of breath before the finish line.
With 466 gears that car had some tall *** slicks on it..must have been bouncing off 7200 rpm plus at the finish line
Woodland & Anderson 68/69 held the NHRA class record for a period of time 12.20's post stick 442 W30. Pete Kost held the class record for a period of time 12.40's in a 69 442 W30 convertible.
In the day they were as quick as the W31's in NHRA race trim.
My experience with both these engines is that the 350 has the greater potential to be a performance engine. The 400 G spun rod bearings when ran hard while the 350 you could hot lap with out any issues.They both respond well to typical bolt on performance up grades, gears, headers, camshaft, and tuning. Woodland & Anderson as well as Pete Kost were very good at extracting maximum performance from their cars. They both are stock class legends. I have a few news paper clips from others that had some success running the 400 G back in 68 & 69 so Pete and Woodland & Anderson were not the only ones running stock with the 400G
It takes very little to run low 13's high 12's with a 350 while the 400 G has to be better sorted to perform as well.
As the current caretaker of a 69 W-30 4 speed with a 342 rear, and a 69 W-31 4 speed with a 342 ( original 391 removed for my driving pleasure ), I think on the strip the W31 would outrun the W30. I have never had either on the strip, or really "beat the eyesballs" out of either car, but I think the lighter weight W31 would be a factor.
Im not into the technical data of either car, but just street driving them both, I feel the W31 would be a winner of the two on the strip....JMO!
I am in the process of restoring a 69 HO, and it will be next summer before it is done, but I assume that car would be the winner between the three of them!
Woodland & Anderson 68/69 held the NHRA class record for a period of time 12.20's post stick 442 W30. Pete Kost held the class record for a period of time 12.40's in a 69 442 W30 convertible.
In the day they were as quick as the W31's in NHRA race trim.
My experience with both these engines is that the 350 has the greater potential to be a performance engine. The 400 G spun rod bearings when ran hard while the 350 you could hot lap with out any issues.They both respond well to typical bolt on performance up grades, gears, headers, camshaft, and tuning. Woodland & Anderson as well as Pete Kost were very good at extracting maximum performance from their cars. They both are stock class legends. I have a few news paper clips from others that had some success running the 400 G back in 68 & 69 so Pete and Woodland & Anderson were not the only ones running stock with the 400G
It takes very little to run low 13's high 12's with a 350 while the 400 G has to be better sorted to perform as well.
Pete Hendel out of Delhi Ontario had a lot of success with his 68 W30.
as far as I know, he still has the car. bought it brand new and was a race car from day 1
F/S ....... 12.78 ....... 1961 Chevrolet Corvette - 283/270 HP
F/S ....... 107.47 ..... 1961 Chevrolet Corvette - 283/270 HP
G/S ...... 12.85 ........ 1957 Chevrolet #150 'Sedan Utility' - 283/283 HP
G/S ...... 107.14 ...... 1957 Chevrolet #150 'Sedan Utility' - 283/283 HP
H/S ....... 12.92 ...... 1957 Chevrolet Bel Air 'Sport Coupe' - 283/283 HP
H/S ....... 107.39 .... 1957 Chevrolet Bel Air 'Sport Coupe' - 283/283 HP
I/S ........ 13.11 ...... 1957 Chevrolet Bel Air 'Sport Coupe' - 283/270 HP
I/S ....... 104.28 ..... 1957 Chevrolet Bel Air 'Sport Coupe' - 283/270 HP
J/S ....... 13.14 ...... 1957 Chevrolet 'Beauville' Station Wagon - 283/283 HP
J/S ....... 105.50 .... 1957 Chevrolet 'Beauville' Station Wagon - 283/283 HP
K/S ...... 13.59 ...... 1957 Chevrolet #210 'Sedan' - 283/245 HP
K/S ...... 101.35 .... 1957 Chevrolet #210 'Sedan' - 283/245 HP
L/S ...... 13.73 ...... 1957 Chevrolet 'Townsman' Station Wagon- 283/245 HP
L/S ...... 100.78 .... 1957 Chevrolet 'Townsman' Station Wagon - 283/245 HP
M/S ..... 13.97 ...... 1955 Chevrolet #150 'Sedan' - 265/195 HP
M/S ..... 99.00 ...... 1955 Chevrolet #150 'Sedan' - 265/195 HP
N/S ..... 14.09 ...... 1955 Chevrolet #150 'Handyman Special' - 265/195 HP
N/S ..... 97.82 ...... 1955 Chevrolet #150 'Handyman Special' - 265/195 HP
O/S ..... 14.22 ..... 1955 Chevrolet #210 'Sedan' - 265/180 HP
O/S ..... 96.67 ..... 1955 Chevrolet #210 'Sedan' - 265/180 HP
P/S ...... 15.24 ..... 1954 Buick Century - 322/195 HP
P/S ...... 90.70 ..... 1959 Chevrolet Biscayne - 283/185 HP
Q/S ..... 16.00 ..... 1957 Chevrolet #210 'Handyman Special' - 283/162 HP
Q/S ..... 84.74 ..... 1957 Chevrolet #210 'Handyman Special' - 283/162 HP
Please note that the discussion is the 442 vs the W-31. I do appreciate the historical information and consider it valuable, but one should expect a W-30 to beat a W-31, I would think.
Please note that the discussion is the 442 vs the W-31. I do appreciate the historical information and consider it valuable, but one should expect a W-30 to beat a W-31, I would think.
The 69 442 stick is rated at 350 hp only 10 hp less than the W30 so in the right hands it can stick with a W31 in similar trim.
It comes down to the driver and the builder. Both need a tall gear, headers as well as slicks/ sticky tires and a suspension that works.
The 400G in stock form spins rod bearings unless that is addressed its a non starter. The W31 you can hot lap and tune your way to quicker et's with out touching the bottom end.
So out of the box stock I would take a tall geared W31. A 310HP 350 will run low 13's high 12's with bolt on's full weight.
November 4th, 2023, 12:35 PM
