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Ok, it's a bad clone, but the price is not too horrible. If you could get it for a few grand under his price, that would be the sort of car to daily drive and give zero cares.
The definition of "clone" is to create a duplicate of something. The notchback faux-four-two did not exist in nature. You can't "clone" something that never existed in the first place.
The street rod world calls cars like this "phantoms". These are cars that the factory could have built, but didn't, like 442 Vista Cruisers.
I know clone is in the dictionary but I couldn't find clone purest " I hope I spelled that right". So it's not an original fake or an original copy. Actually if you go back to the original post it says that it's a klone.
Railguy
shoulda gone w cutlass tribute in the title instead of 442 clone its more accurate...
Yeah, 70 rear bumper, 71 headlight bezels (one on backwards BTW), 72 grills etc. although as you know, 70-72 never offered the CS HT in the 442 lineup.
It's what it is though. Some of the tribute cars flooding the market lately cater to the folks who don't know what the factory kicked out back in the day, nor do they research what the RPOs would be. None of the mistakes on this car can't be corrected as they are all cosmetic. An Olds purist can easily look past those issues in terms of proper restoration or bargaining.
There, I used the terms 'tribute' and 'purist' so Joe pedantic Padavano won't bust my chops on that.
Originally Posted by Railguy
Probably doesn't even have the 442 engine!
No, of course not. If you look at the VIN it's listed as a 34257 which is the CS hardtop. Only the 34467, 34487, and 34477 would have been built with 455 engine in 1970, which this model year shows, having a 0 in the year placeholder position. That would also explain why the horn relay is on the drivers side fender, on the replacement front clip. Too many things to list as discrepancies. I wonder if Johnny Cash also worked at Oldsmobile...
Go to any car show how many olds'do you see? Now ask yourself if that car were there how many people would notice?
Here's something to think about . How many Chevelles do see without the SS badge. How many people call them SS clones or would it be a Chevelle SS clone.
Railguy
Go to any car show how many olds'do you see? Now ask yourself if that car were there how many people would notice?
Point well taken. They'd likely be more awestruck by the color combination and shiny paint. I think the vast majority of us will agree that the norm isn't a well informed audience anymore. The Northern Lights Oldsmobile Chapter in Alberta promotes an "ALL OLDSMOBILE" show every July. Nothing allowed but Olds of all years! You don't even have to live just in Alberta, there's long distance awards given. Ya think anyone there would notice this car and not offer comments?
Here's an interesting side snippet about the 'clone' or tribute cars. Light reading at it's best, and I'm sure it's part of the hype that's generating these presentations we all seem to put a bashing onto. Muscle car Clone?
Originally Posted by Railguy
Here's something to think about . How many Chevelles do see without the SS badge. How many people call them SS clones or would it be a Chevelle SS clone.
Railguy
Actually, a fair number of Chevelles, and maybe 35-40 % of them sporting SS badges. Of course no one will argue that some of them weren't born that way, much like many of our Oldsmobiles have been altered. Don't forget also that there were a lot of Chevelles produced also, and there's a better support market for their parts and history than Oldsmobile.
Go to any car show how many olds'do you see? Now ask yourself if that car were there how many people would notice?
Here's something to think about . How many Chevelles do see without the SS badge. How many people call them SS clones or would it be a Chevelle SS clone.
Railguy
Right on all points except the first statement, I live very close to Lansing so we have an average of 20-25% or 100% one day of the year of shows having an Oldsmobile.
My point was that any clone, tribute, replica (bad terminology) or re-incarnation erodes at the fabric what is correct/factory. The current owner if memory serves, does have the price at what a decent supreme would be selling for. The car must have had pretty good wreck at one time for it to have the 71/72 front clip installed.
It brings me back to the corral at the 2004 Auburn auction. Same body style as above with Matador red and black stripes W31 badges, it was nicely done with all new pieces. So I asked the gents sitting by it what are you guys trying to sell this as?
The reply was with a shocked look and a gulp a "cutlass" $19,995 on the window (no mention of clone) I said to them nice work, but way to pricey for a supreme. No reply!
To me it's like taking someones middle aged misses and give her lift and tuck every where that is necessary and slapping on a coat of cosmetics and saying hey I have a supermodel clone.
71 model year still had an SX. 72 U code in the VIN
A minor point of clarification Pat? In 72 the CS Hardtop could have been ordered as a U code or V code, both of which are mated to L75 455's (U code - AT, V code MT). The only 72 Cutlass Supreme that could be ordered from the factory with the X code L77 high performance 455 was the convertible (34267) using the W30 RPO.
The reference made to Hurst Olds is correct - they did automatically get 455's. It is my understanding that some of those HO's were also X code cars. That was an option Hurst left to the buyer; swap out the U code for X code. I don't know how many of these were produced. Not sure, but I believe these were the only models lucky enough to have the 3G4257X VIN starting sequence. All the HO's also got W25 hoods, and special trim, but I don't know if that came from the factory as special order, or whether they were swapped out at Hurst.
Koda: All Cutlass SX - RPO Y79 - models in 70/71 came with 455 engines, and included the somewhat revered cutout bumper with dual trumpet exhaust and special badging. Most SX models I've seen also have a Halo top. Interesting that although the 442 came standard from factory with a 455, the standard engine for the 71 Cutlass Supreme was the 350 4bbl, and the optional engine was the (L65) 350 2bbl that gave a small credit difference to the purchase. This pattern continued into 72 with the CS standard engine being the L34 and option being the L32.
That's what I thought. So, 455's could be had in Supremes via SX package for 70 and 71. In 72, you could order like you said, was w-25 available in the Supreme for 72 as a standalone option?
Now this is getting really pedantic, but, other than badging, what was the difference between a 70 442 convertible and a Cutlass SX convertible? Same body minus some badges, and both had a 455. I am thinking they were not the same 455s.
That's what I thought. So, 455's could be had in Supremes via SX package for 70 and 71. In 72, you could order like you said, was w-25 available in the Supreme for 72 as a standalone option?
The OAI hood is the RPO W25 option. As a stand alone Factory option it was available for both the base 350 4bbl at a cost of around 150.00, and was only offered for the verts. Not available for 2bbl 350 engine. Not bad considering the price these hoods go for now. By comparison, it was about 80.00 less than the cost of U58 Stereo AM/FM Radio. The W25 hood was included in the W30 package.
Originally Posted by Koda
Now this is getting really pedantic, but, other than badging, what was the difference between a 70 442 convertible and a Cutlass SX convertible? Same body minus some badges, and both had a 455. I am thinking they were not the same 455s.
Same body, yes. The 442 had a 455 that put out 270 hp, compared to the SX 250 hp. The W30 442 vert 455 put out 300 hp.
Also the 442 had numerous upgrades to handling such as boxed control arms, heavy duty front/rear sway bar, HD front/rear springs, HD shocks, HD drive shaft, and the options for M40 AT, or M20 or M22 MT's. Needless to say the 442 also had a number of trim and appearance items that gave it a slightly different look.
The OAI hood is the RPO W25 option. As a stand alone Factory option it was available for both the base 350 4bbl at a cost of around 150.00, and was only offered for the verts.
Are you saying the W25 was only available on the convertible for 1972?
Same body, yes. The 442 had a 455 that put out 270 hp, compared to the SX 250 hp. The W30 442 vert 455 put out 300 hp.
There was no SX for 1972.
Anyway, to a previous post, the 455 was available without the SX package for 1970-71.
Are you saying the W25 was only available on the convertible for 1972?
??? How did you read that into my comment? Koda asked a simple question - could the W25 hood be ordered on a CS Vert in 72. My answer was specific to his question, and it's the right answer.
To address your comment? Of course not. It was listed as RPO W25 for 1972 Cutlass, Cutlass S, and Cutlass Supreme. Is that more clear?
Originally Posted by Diego
There was no SX for 1972.
How did you ever read that I said there was? We were talking about 70/71 being the only years of the SX. We never even came close to inferring what you stated. It's pretty common knowledge amongst the folks who were discussing this thread that there was no SX model in 72. Thanks for that gem of information though.
Originally Posted by Diego
Anyway, to a previous post, the 455 was available without the SX package for 1970-71.
I agree that in 1970 the CS could be ordered with RPO L33. It was also offered in the Cutlass, Cutlass S and Vista Cruiser for 1970. I will bow to your superior knowledge if you can direct me to the information that says the 455 was available as an RPO for the 71 Cutlass Supreme Hard Tops (body style 4257) that were not Y79. We already know that the 4267 could be ordered as a 3442567 so that can't be included in your answer.
Allan, aside of the context issues I may have missed in your response to Koda, I'm not really interested in your games.
ADDENDUM:
How did you ever read that I said there was? We were talking about 70/71 being the only years of the SX. We never even came close to inferring what you stated. It's pretty common knowledge amongst the folks who were discussing this thread that there was no SX model in 72. Thanks for that gem of information though.
You said the SX was rated at 250 horsepower, and generally 1971 items were rated in gross terms - that's how I arrived at my query.
Here's part of the doc from the GM Heritage Center that shows the 455s installed in certain series.
The number of 4200-series cars built with the 455-4 almost the same as the number of Y79 cars built, which I'd attribute to a statistical error rather than a few 455-4s built without SX equipment.
Prob would be a good idea for me to lay out the engines, series, and production in another thread, no?
Allan, aside of the context issues I may have missed in your response to Koda, I'm not really interested in your games.
Games? Not playing games Diego. Your oversight of not reading the context issues generated an appropriate response IMO. No big deal, lets work past this ok?
Originally Posted by Diego
Here's part of the doc from the GM Heritage Center that shows the 455s installed in certain series.
That actually proves nothing except that a 455 was available for Vista Cruiser and Cutlass Supreme in 1971. It does not specify what models of 4200 were eligible, and I still maintain it was only for Y79 (4257 & 4267) and 442 production that used the 4267 body. Show me something more substantial. Right now I'm sticking with the Olds dealer guide and SPECS, Power teams booklets.
Originally Posted by Diego
The number of 4200-series cars built with the 455-4 almost the same as the number of Y79 cars built, which I'd attribute to a statistical error rather than a few 455-4s built without SX equipment.
Again, please show me the statistics and source documents. My research shows that there were just over 7000 SX models produced in 1970 and about 2100 in 1971.
According to Olds Marketing Bulletins, the W32 was available for 1970 (article dated 9/5/69) but the cancellation of the W33 didn't happen till 2/24/70, which is 3/4 of the way through model year production. That means till the end of W33 production, an undetermined number of L33 and L32 cars were produced, unless you can show otherwise. I keep reminding myself that back in those days, hefty insurance would likely motivate sales of the SX with W33 and tall gear ratios for better overall rates, and better fuel efficiency. The Power Teams part of the SPECS shows the CS having a 455 option, but with the taller gears that fit the description of the W33 only. The 1970 Product information spells out more clearly that the (W33/W32/Y79) was the CS option for getting a 455. I can find no documentation that shows how many of the 1970 SX models were built with the L33, and how many were optioned for the W32 455 4bbl. I don't see how you can attribute statistical error to production numbers when you haven't produced anything to substantiate your claim.
Note: I looked at 'Setting the Pace' stats and they do not break down the numbers of L74/L33 or L32 production either for 1970. Same thing for 1971, they list total production of body styles, but lump all the engine production info into a box that doesn't correlate to individual production numbers.
For the 1971 model year, there's no question the SX was only available with the L32 455 4bbl. See the Power Teams section of engine availability and it's clearly laid out - only for Y79; coupes and verts + mandatory M40 transmission. Now, If you factor out 4267 models that were used for 442 and Y79 production, what I'd like to know is how many 4257 models were able to get 455 engines, as you claim they could. According to the dealer ordering and SPECS books for 1971, the 4257 came with a L74 350 4bbl standard, with only one downgrade to the L65 350 2bbl. THAT was the issue Koda and I were discussing about the 71 model year. Perhaps you could expand on that? I'd love to know how the typical 71 4257 could be ordered with an L32 or L30 engine.
As per the attachment, the 4800 series is not part of our discussion, but I realize you knew that and couldn't alter the document to remove it.
This is a lot of info for an old geezer to digest all in one s3tting, but it leaves me with the question of what body style was our Ron Garey driven Chesrown Olds 71 Supreme with 455 and wasnt SX? (The lite blue one) that is still livung in Va and owned by Jim Michaels?
No, of course not. If you look at the VIN it's listed as a 34257 which is the CS hardtop. Only the 34467, 34487, and 34477 would have been built with 455 engine in 1970, which this model year shows, having a 0 in the year placeholder position. That would also explain why the horn relay is on the drivers side fender, on the replacement front clip. Too many things to list as discrepancies. I wonder if Johnny Cash also worked at Oldsmobile... One Piece at a Time
I think what Railguy meant by "442 engine" was the classic question we all get from the people who think that 442's had a 442 cu in engine in them. I get that question often about my '87. They always seem vaguely disappointed when I tell them it has a high output 307.
I think what Railguy meant by "442 engine" was the classic question we all get from the people who think that 442's had a 442 cu in engine in them. I get that question often about my '87. They always seem vaguely disappointed when I tell them it has a high output 307.
Ah, Gotcha! You mean it doesn't have fo hunnert and forty two hp??? Good catch Alan, I was thinking too literally.
I don't have badging on my car and I've had teen kids walking by at an ALL OLDS show saying 'these chevies were quite common back then'. I just let them walk on. Others might have stopped em and edjumicated em proper....
