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I was just wondering how many 442's were 4 speeds vs. how many were auto's. I know I'm not mentioning a year in particular but back in the day it seemed all muscle cars were 4 speeds. To get an auto just wasn't what speed was about. It seems to me that there are a lot of auto trans cars out there. Did folks just hang on to the auto's and the hot rodder's crashed and got junked? Just curious.
I agree, I'm getting a bit older and an auto is nice. I have a friend that has W-30 with a 4 speed and has said at times he wished he had an auto. I just wondered if they made more 4 speeds than auto's.
It seems to me as the newer year models were produced the less 4 speeds there were produced with 1973 being the last year for a 4speed behind an Olds engine. The Turbo 400 was a HD trans so no need to look for anything else.
As companies started producing higher stall converters and shift kits for autos, the 4 speed advantage became less and less. Dragracers started to realize and prove the advantage of driving an auto at the reace track.
Yup. When musclecars ruled the world I heard so much crap from four speed car drivers. Shut every single one of them up. I Never lost a street race ever. Not one. 455 had plenty of torque to power that turbo 400. No problem.
As a teenage kid back in the late 70s I remember seeing two 1970 Corvettes at a well known drag area. Every time the 4 speed car shifted, it lost more ground to the automatic car. That sold me on automatics.
Flash forward to 2020 and I was at Bondurant for a performance driving class in Hellcats. We were given the choice of auto or manual; I chose the auto and beat the pants off all of the other Hellcats, especially the MT cars. I'll admit that some of that was driver and some was transmission type.
The other big factor was insurance .
In the early sixties , 4 speeds were hot .
But , as mentioned , a lot of them ended up wrapped around trees .
Mostly by under 25 drivers .
Around '65 or '66 they realized this fact and jacked the rates WAY up for under 25 drivers with a 4 speed .
By 1968 or so anyone under 25 that wanted to insure a 4 speed car had to pay as much or higher monthly insurance payment than the car payment
Last edited by Charlie Jones; Jan 13, 2021 at 08:57 AM.
I was just wondering how many 442's were 4 speeds vs. how many were auto's. I know I'm not mentioning a year in particular but back in the day it seemed all muscle cars were 4 speeds. To get an auto just wasn't what speed was about. It seems to me that there are a lot of auto trans cars out there. Did folks just hang on to the auto's and the hot rodder's crashed and got junked? Just curious.
Steve
Steve - I own a 1967 Cutlass Supreme Holiday Coupe 442. I can't speak about other years because I haven't done the research. For 1967 these numbers vary slightly across multiple sources, but in 1967 there were approximately 12,530 442's built with the TH400 3-speed automatic, 11,380 4-speed manuals, and 920 3-speed manuals. All of these were in Cutlass Supremes because the 442 performance package was only available as an option on the Cutlass Supreme in 1967. The 442 option was not available on the standard Cutlass or F85 models. It shocked the heck out of me when I saw there were more automatics produced than 4-speeds.
...Every time the 4 speed car shifted, it lost more ground to the automatic car...
Automatics simply shift quicker than anyone driving a manual. On top of that, depending on how the vehicle was driven, an eventual clutch plate replacemnt is inevitable
Last edited by Killian_Mörder; Jan 9, 2021 at 12:50 AM.
Yup. When musclecars ruled the world I heard so much crap from four speed car drivers. Shut every single one of them up. I Never lost a street race ever. Not one. 455 had plenty of torque to power that turbo 400. No problem.
Not to be disrespect, however if you never lost a race the you probably were racing inferior cars to yours, who gets the jump , who hooks up better, and is it stoplight to stoplight or true quarter mile.. All these factors came into play..I won many and lost some due to leaving to hard, spinning not hooking up..short distance races with guys with super stout rear gears etc.. got humbled real bad once racing a 70 LS6 chevelle, never even heard of that LS6 until that day..Guy pulls over after whoopin my *** to talk, shows me the paperwork..whole different league.
In the sixty’s automatics weren't out all that long they were more expensive than standard drives (sticks). It wasn't unusual to install two automatics over the life of the vehicle, people were skeptical mostly due to it being a new item It takes time for change. These mid size cars were targeted, designed, marketed, and reasonably priced for young people. Some men and women had the forethought to order or buy a bench seat 4-speed, yes you could get a SS, 442, GTO even a Camero with a bench seat. Then in 1971 leaded gas was on it’s way out, unleaded was in. The market was changing fuel economy air pollution where the concerns. In a short period of time these machines were also on their way out. Newspaper ads and used car lots were full, you could drive one off a lot for $ 1500. I worked at a full service gas station in hi-school a guy pulls in the station with a 1968 Willow gold 4 speed, glass pack, air shock, chrome reverse wheels 442, I was digging it. He ask me if I would give him 3.00 worth of premium for a set of new in the box headphones, I pump the gas he handed me the headphones. While he was pulling away I yelled if you want to sell something else you come back. Well guess what a few days later he came back pulled up to the pumps to ask for three dollars of the premium and paid me. While cranking the Olds he looked up and asked, you want to buy this car. Hell Ya I bought it that Friday for 350.00 dollars. You take 365 plus ft. lbs. of torque, 4 speed, 50 series polyglas tires, rain and a 17 year old kid it can get ugly real fast. It was a telephone pole on a sharp turn. I found another one in a yard for 250.00 minus the drive train stuck mine under it and kept it for 17 years till I sold it. One 4 speed 440 drive train we installed in three, a road runner, GTX, and a Belvedere before I lost track of it. I remember running with a 1966 SS 4 speed, a challenger 4 speed, a 1969 dodge dart 4 speed all wrecked. Then we were interested in 75 and newer Cutlass Salons, Grand Prix SJ’s not 442’s. So back to your question, a lot of the 4 speed cars went to the boneyard in the sky as mine did... Looking back I guess we were all pretty lucky, no one died !
Last edited by oldsmobilejim; Jan 12, 2021 at 06:02 AM.
Back in the day when I was about 18 I had an 69 H/O My Brother had a 70 442 W30 4 speed convert. Our cars were stock and pretty much the same except for the transmissions. He wanted to race, so we did, I won only because my car shifted faster than the 4 speed. Every time he had to shift I jumped out a little and stayed that way until he had to shift again then I jumped out a little more. To this day I keep reminding him that I won 37 years later.
Back in the day when I was about 18 I had an 69 H/O My Brother had a 70 442 W30 4 speed convert. Our cars were stock and pretty much the same except for the transmissions. He wanted to race, so we did, I won only because my car shifted faster than the 4 speed. Every time he had to shift I jumped out a little and stayed that way until he had to shift again then I jumped out a little more. To this day I keep reminding him that I won 37 years later.
That must've been an interesting race. I think the early H/O engines were rated higher than the 70 W-30 MT engine, but that W-30 probably had a lower geared rear in it.
No disrespect taken. For sure there were faster cars than mine out there. My car was a bone stock 3.42 posi 70 442. Of course there are plenty of factors. I do know for a fact I knew my car very well. Had some great races for sure. Not one time did I come out on the short end. Driving an Oldsmobile people didn't expect it run as good as it did. Once I got you put of the hole it was all over. Also had the torque to catch cars in the end. I worked with a guy that had all kinds of cash in his 65 wusstang. Talked so much trash. He reached for third gear as I finally got into my back barrels right after I shifted to second gear. Easy hundred dollars. Ha ha
Ha Ha Ha. So true. Everyone knew my car. Tell you that. Sure couldn't hide. I mean I sure couldn't hide. Stood out everywhere. My car was called a Chevelle a GTO a Challenger you name it. Nope. You got your blank handed to you by an OLDSMOBILE!!
Last edited by no1oldsfan; Jan 9, 2021 at 02:38 PM.
For sure there were faster cars than mine out there. My car was a bone stock 3.42 posi 70 442. Of course there are plenty of factors. I do know for a fact I knew my car very well. Had some great races for sure. Not one time did I come out on the short end. Driving an Oldsmobile people didn't expect it run as good as it did. Once I got you put of the hole it was all over. Also had the torque to catch cars .ha
I had the exact same setup and this was my experience as well, with a couple exceptions . A warmed over manual trans 70 AMX got me barely once and I got him barely once. We were preparing to line up for the tie breaker when we were joined by the city’s finest. That will take the wind right out of you sails. The only other time was a 68 Camaro known locally as THE fastest car around. 15 years later I learned why his car was putting out so much black smoke.
Only a few opponents stayed even close off the line , none survived the second gear shift other than these two cars.
I am not saying my car was the fastest car around but I honestly never got beat. I had two roommates. One had a 68 Malibu with an SS hood with a 454 out of an Estate Wagon with a cam. THAT Was the fastest car in our town period. Period. Everyone feared that car. It got totalled by a drunk when it was parked once. He rebodied it with a true SS 396 four speed shell. He still has it. The other roommate had a 69 SS Chevelle. I waxed him over and over. Then he got nitrous. My car was bone stock from the original owner. People used to get so pissed getting beat by an Oldsmobile. I got asked to pop my hood constantly. Oh the old days. Kids these days have no clue the fun we had. We didn't post what we did. We shut our lip. Internet was an unknown word.
Last edited by no1oldsfan; Jan 10, 2021 at 01:46 PM.
I had no chance in my town. The local hangout had a 1970 W-30 4 speed, headers, etc. and his buddy had a Vega with a built 350 Chevy, that eventually got turbocharged. I was not worth their time.
I get it. I am the last of a big family. So So many fast cars in Denver way back then.
We had a huge cruising scene. Once I was center lane on a main cruise night. 75ish Camaro pulled up on my right. Small block Chevy powered 68 Firebird on my left. No hood. Talking so much sh##. They were talking trash back and forth. I yelled Ha Ha. Both you fools are about to lose to an Oldsmobile. Got them both of them rialed up. Guess who whopped them? 442B4U. That was my license plate.
Last edited by no1oldsfan; Jan 10, 2021 at 02:11 PM.
...Everyone feared that car. It got totalled by a drunk when it was parked once...
Sounds like a false flag operation, to me . A rival owner of a weaker car probably slipped the guy a couple hundred dollar bills and a fifth of whiskey, in order to get him to do it. That would be like paying off someone to get rid of a local bully.
Back then, when there were still Gentlemen, if some female civil servant picked you out for getting surly with you, you could hire a female junkie to go out and kick her butt, so that you wouldn't have to go do it yourself. Both instances run along the same lines.
Just guessing. Even if it's unlikely that the collision was deliberate, I still wouldn't rule anything out anymore, these days
My next door neighbor was the “when I had my Chevelle” always faster than he really was kinda guy. He was the nicest guy around, always wanted to help, but also so full of **** sometimes.
He always asked how my track days went. It also never failed he would always remind me that he thought a mid 11s street car is nothing impressive, his 396 Chevelle ran in the 9 back in the 70s. I resisted the urge to ask him what it was like to race with Bob Glidden, Grumpy Jenkins, and other pro stock drivers. Considering what Pro Stock cars ran in the 70s, his Chevelle could have cleaned house!!
Guy that use to live down the street had a older Ram with the 24 valve Cummins. Swore his truck ran in the 10s with minor upgrades. While I’m well aware of the potential of the cummins engine, I’ll bet real money his truck isn't anywhere near the 10s, especially since his had a 6 speed manual. Anyone who has driven a Ram with the manual trans knows very well your not rowing gears very fast with that gearbox!
My next door neighbor was the “when I had my Chevelle” always faster than he really was kinda guy. He was the nicest guy around, always wanted to help, but also so full of **** sometimes.
He always asked how my track days went. It also never failed he would always remind me that he thought a mid 11s street car is nothing impressive, his 396 Chevelle ran in the 9 back in the 70s. I resisted the urge to ask him what it was like to race with Bob Glidden, Grumpy Jenkins, and other pro stock drivers. Considering what Pro Stock cars ran in the 70s, his Chevelle could have cleaned house!!
Guy that use to live down the street had a older Ram with the 24 valve Cummins. Swore his truck ran in the 10s with minor upgrades. While I’m well aware of the potential of the cummins engine, I’ll bet real money his truck isn't anywhere near the 10s, especially since his had a 6 speed manual. Anyone who has driven a Ram with the manual trans knows very well your not rowing gears very fast with that gearbox!
Maybeche ran 1/8 and didn’t know any different???
I've learned that the best thing you can do in that situation is just nod your head and say "oh, wow".
I’m not about to argue with him. For all I know, the Chevelle or truck in question did run really well.
In 30 years I’ll be reminiscing to my next door neighbor (while he is washing his electric flying machine) about the times I raced and beat Warren Johnson.
No my roommates Chevelle was not hit intentionally. Rebuilt it with a four speed. Even faster after the rebuild. He still has it. Those days are close to forty years ago now. My how time flies.
By the way I am quite aware that there were plenty of cars faster than my Olds trust me. I am not "that guy" that thinks my car was faster than a drag car.
My personal take on transmissions back then was it was cheaper to replace a clutch and pressure plate than to rebuild/replace an automatic transmission.
. A rival owner of a weaker car probably slipped the guy a couple hundred dollar bills and a fifth of whiskey, in order to get him to do it. That would be like paying off someone to get rid of a local bully.
