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Hello everybody, i try to be as detailed as poisible. I daily drive i 87 Cadillac Brougham with the 307 olds. I recently had a stalling issue once the engine was warm. So like after 20 min driving when i had to stop she would die on me. Turned out the distributor was no good anymore and the upstream sensor failed. It was still the factory one so im not complaining about that. Just had the new distributor,rotor,cap sensor ect installed and she is now running fine,no more stalling when warm. But it still shows error code 41 and the cel is no constantly on,before she only come up for a minute. And now she is stalling on a coldstart,once i hit the throttle couple of times and she warms up its all good but still the cel is on constantly and because its my daily i dont want to worry about her. What would be the next thing to check?
Did you erase the stored codes by disconnecting the battery for a few minutes?
The mechanic installed the distributor,its hard to say.I had code 41 for a while but the cel was never constantly on, just a few seconds here and a minute there,from time to time. Since the new distributor is installed the cel is on allthe time and she runs rough,i dont get that.
Runs full rich with base timing setting. If you're getting the 41 signal by itself, then it may be a VAC sensor issue. If you're running the car and ground the test terminal, check to make sure you're not getting a code 12 too. If you are, deal with that. A 41 alone means there may be some sort of issue with the pickup inside the distributor as well, physically. CSM doesn't say that, but if your reference signal is missing, the ECM goes to full rich with base timing and the car will run like crap.
I'd take it back to the mechanic who put in the distributor and tell him to fix it.
Also, yeah, clear any codes first, then see what happens.
Runs full rich with base timing setting. If you're getting the 41 signal by itself, then it may be a VAC sensor issue. If you're running the car and ground the test terminal, check to make sure you're not getting a code 12 too. If you are, deal with that. A 41 alone means there may be some sort of issue with the pickup inside the distributor as well, physically. CSM doesn't say that, but if your reference signal is missing, the ECM goes to full rich with base timing and the car will run like crap.
I'd take it back to the mechanic who put in the distributor and tell him to fix it.
Also, yeah, clear any codes first, then see what happens.
Thank you for your feedback, i scanned the car today again, i always do that with a paperclip but engine not running just the key turned. 3x code and 3x code 41. The problem i have is that the car runs worse with new distributor. The mechanic is a mobile mechanic cause im in the highlands of NC and the shops around dont want to work on her. He will come back next week. Im gonna disconnect the battery tomorrow and see whats then.
Runs full rich with base timing setting. If you're getting the 41 signal by itself, then it may be a VAC sensor issue. If you're running the car and ground the test terminal, check to make sure you're not getting a code 12 too. If you are, deal with that. A 41 alone means there may be some sort of issue with the pickup inside the distributor as well, physically. CSM doesn't say that, but if your reference signal is missing, the ECM goes to full rich with base timing and the car will run like crap.
I'd take it back to the mechanic who put in the distributor and tell him to fix it.
Also, yeah, clear any codes first, then see what happens.
I disconnected the battery but it didnt helped. Still getting code 12 and 41.
Yep, code 12 should always be present in diagnostic mode and engine not running, but not when the car is running. Code 12 is your tach signal to the ECM so the ECM knows how fast the engine is turning (calculated). When the car isn't running, the ECM can communicate and display the Code 12 in diagnostic mode which is perfectly normal and expected on the OBD1 software. This tells you that the ECM is at least communicating through the "network". If you get a code 12 when running, such as you describe, this is NOT a good thing. A code 12 won't be stored in memory, so whenever you see it, it's current issue, not a legacy issue. I don't have access to my CSMs at the moment, but Code 41 is a loss of distributor reference signal to the ECM at certain vacuum conditions, again, bringing in the D/P (aka VAC) sensor that should be under the hood somewhere. Check to make sure the vacuum line going from the engine to the d/p sensor is hooked up, as well as the sensor's electrical plug. Sensors of this type rarely go bad, but sometimes they do.
Is the wiring intact and not burnt/crispy, insulation cracked, etc. to the distributor connection points? There's a flat 4 pin weatherpack plug out of the distributor that connects to the ECM normally found in the vicinity of the passenger side rear of the intake. Sometimes, the wiring is broken INSIDE the insulation around that plug. I've only seen that once, and repairing the plug fixed it (wasn't mine) so it can't be taken off the potential problem list. You say it was running fine at first, and now it isn't. This leads me to believe that something changed recently. Such as a broken/loose wire,
The OTHER question I have- is it a true HEI distributor for your application? GM or aftermarket? Many times the aftermarket HEIs are vacuum can advance and aren't set up like the ECM-controlled timing HEIs that came on the car. It's getting harder to find the ECM-controlled ones. If you left it up to your mechanic to decide, did he make the right decision? I'm not disparging your guy, but all HEI distributors for Olds are not created equal.
If you look at your distributor and see a vacuum can hanging out the side, it's not correct for your ECM.
Here's a troubleshooting chart for code 41. You will need a way to scan the D/P sensor signal to check it. Note at the end, it discusses wiring grounds and connections. Note, 307 Olds V8s don't use a MAP sensor. It's a D/P or VAC sensor. They look similar, but operate differently.
Yep, code 12 should always be present in diagnostic mode and engine not running, but not when the car is running. Code 12 is your tach signal to the ECM so the ECM knows how fast the engine is turning (calculated). When the car isn't running, the ECM can communicate and display the Code 12 in diagnostic mode which is perfectly normal and expected on the OBD1 software. This tells you that the ECM is at least communicating through the "network". If you get a code 12 when running, such as you describe, this is NOT a good thing. A code 12 won't be stored in memory, so whenever you see it, it's current issue, not a legacy issue. I don't have access to my CSMs at the moment, but Code 41 is a loss of distributor reference signal to the ECM at certain vacuum conditions, again, bringing in the D/P (aka VAC) sensor that should be under the hood somewhere. Check to make sure the vacuum line going from the engine to the d/p sensor is hooked up, as well as the sensor's electrical plug. Sensors of this type rarely go bad, but sometimes they do.
Is the wiring intact and not burnt/crispy, insulation cracked, etc. to the distributor connection points? There's a flat 4 pin weatherpack plug out of the distributor that connects to the ECM normally found in the vicinity of the passenger side rear of the intake. Sometimes, the wiring is broken INSIDE the insulation around that plug. I've only seen that once, and repairing the plug fixed it (wasn't mine) so it can't be taken off the potential problem list. You say it was running fine at first, and now it isn't. This leads me to believe that something changed recently. Such as a broken/loose wire,
The OTHER question I have- is it a true HEI distributor for your application? GM or aftermarket? Many times the aftermarket HEIs are vacuum can advance and aren't set up like the ECM-controlled timing HEIs that came on the car. It's getting harder to find the ECM-controlled ones. If you left it up to your mechanic to decide, did he make the right decision? I'm not disparging your guy, but all HEI distributors for Olds are not created equal.
If you look at your distributor and see a vacuum can hanging out the side, it's not correct for your ECM.
Here's a troubleshooting chart for code 41. You will need a way to scan the D/P sensor signal to check it. Note at the end, it discusses wiring grounds and connections. Note, 307 Olds V8s don't use a MAP sensor. It's a D/P or VAC sensor. They look similar, but operate differently.
First of all thank you so much for that detailed answer,thats a lot of input, i really apreciate that.
He is a master technician and i really doubt that he put the wrong distributor in it but of course i verify that.
Im waiting for him to come back and i will post a update here.
As i said,im in the Highlands of NC and the clock is ticking way slower here,i learnrd that the hard way,lol.
Yep, code 12 should always be present in diagnostic mode and engine not running, but not when the car is running. Code 12 is your tach signal to the ECM so the ECM knows how fast the engine is turning (calculated). When the car isn't running, the ECM can communicate and display the Code 12 in diagnostic mode which is perfectly normal and expected on the OBD1 software. This tells you that the ECM is at least communicating through the "network". If you get a code 12 when running, such as you describe, this is NOT a good thing. A code 12 won't be stored in memory, so whenever you see it, it's current issue, not a legacy issue. I don't have access to my CSMs at the moment, but Code 41 is a loss of distributor reference signal to the ECM at certain vacuum conditions, again, bringing in the D/P (aka VAC) sensor that should be under the hood somewhere. Check to make sure the vacuum line going from the engine to the d/p sensor is hooked up, as well as the sensor's electrical plug. Sensors of this type rarely go bad, but sometimes they do.
Is the wiring intact and not burnt/crispy, insulation cracked, etc. to the distributor connection points? There's a flat 4 pin weatherpack plug out of the distributor that connects to the ECM normally found in the vicinity of the passenger side rear of the intake. Sometimes, the wiring is broken INSIDE the insulation around that plug. I've only seen that once, and repairing the plug fixed it (wasn't mine) so it can't be taken off the potential problem list. You say it was running fine at first, and now it isn't. This leads me to believe that something changed recently. Such as a broken/loose wire,
The OTHER question I have- is it a true HEI distributor for your application? GM or aftermarket? Many times the aftermarket HEIs are vacuum can advance and aren't set up like the ECM-controlled timing HEIs that came on the car. It's getting harder to find the ECM-controlled ones. If you left it up to your mechanic to decide, did he make the right decision? I'm not disparging your guy, but all HEI distributors for Olds are not created equal.
If you look at your distributor and see a vacuum can hanging out the side, it's not correct for your ECM.
Here's a troubleshooting chart for code 41. You will need a way to scan the D/P sensor signal to check it. Note at the end, it discusses wiring grounds and connections. Note, 307 Olds V8s don't use a MAP sensor. It's a D/P or VAC sensor. They look similar, but operate differently.
It seems i found the issue,there is a big hose going to the air cleaner housing,the mechanic forgot to put that back on,i popped it back on and see there the check engine light is off. No more weird smell either of course because the hose is back on. I disconnected the battery but the code 41 is still in memory but the light is not on anymor and she runs super smooth again, so im not sure about that.
I attached a pic of the hose which was disconnected,thats not my engine bay just for attention.
Last edited by 87Brougham307; Aug 22, 2022 at 11:23 AM.
It seems i found the issue,there is a big hose going to the air cleaner housing,the mechanic forgot to put that back on,i popped it back on and see there the check engine light is off. No more weird smell either of course because the hose is back on. I disconnected the battery but the code 41 is still in memory but the light is not on anymor and she runs super smooth again, so im not sure about that.
If you disconnect the battery for a few minutes, the 41 code should clear itself. But if the car is started and it returns, then you still have an issue there.
I'm assuming you're talking about the air cleaner vent from the Air Injection Reaction (A.I.R.) pump? The one located right behind the A/C compressor muffler? Normally, when warmed up, air is pumped to the cat converter 2nd bed and the exhaust via the pipes running to the heads. When the system no longer requires A.I.R., the switching valve swaps to divert the air to the air cleaner so the engine can filter and use the air. You could take that hose going from the pump to the air cleaner completely off, toss it up on a shelf, and the car shouldn't run any different. You're obviously on to something, though if you put it on and now your car is running better. But it confuses me when you say you're still getting the code 41? Something still doesn't smell right.
If it is the long skinny air cleaner hose that taps into the port for the primary choke pull-off (a little "Tee" on the front passenger side of the carb), that's for the intake air diverter valve controlled with the "thermac" system based on ambient temperature. When cold outside, the vacuum is applied from the primary choke pull-off connection on the carburetor the thermal sensor in the air cleaner. This directs the valve closed to outside air and open to exhaust manifold heat stove air. Once the air inside the air cleaner warms up, it will start to adjust vacuum signal and allow the valve to open and draw in air from the normal outside ducting. On some cars, this setup also uses another plastic Tee in the line to supply vacuum signal to the D/P sensor. If this was unplugged, you'd have no d/p signal and possibly could cause a code 41. I'm just guessing here since I'm familiar with G-bodies and not the big bodies. Your setup may be a tad different. Find the D/P sensor under the hood wherever it is, and then check to make sure the electrical plug is tight and the vacuum hose running to it is connected and crack free.
Sorry, just shooting in the dark here. It really depends on how you have your air cleaner and D/P sensor vacuum lines set up. I don't know how Caddys utilized the Olds 307 with the underhood goodies.
The sensor should look something like this...about 2" long or so.
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Here's a quote from another forum I made about the manifold differential pressure sensor but it may help you out here. It's a bit of a read, but it always helps to try and understand what's going on when your car is sick.
One of the sneaky things that can get your Emission fixes in trouble on your G-body is whether you need a MAP (manifold absolute pressure) sensor or a MDP (manifold differential pressure) sensor for your 307 V8. The MDP sensor is also called a VAC sensor sometimes, but I don't usually call it that. Doesn't matter if you have a Buick or Olds, or whatever, if you have a stock 307 Y or 9 in your car, you need to make sure you get the right sensor for your application. (You Buick turbo 6 guys, you have a special MAP sensor that takes boost into account, and that won't be discussed here, either. P/N 16009886, 12569241.) Fuel injected engines typically use MAP along with MAF sensors, not MDPs.
There's also another sensor to deal with that is similar, called the barometric pressure sensor, aka "Baro", but they're pretty straightforward and I'm not going to deal with those here. I'll only say that they're under the dash behind the kick panel on the passenger side in the interior of the car. They have no hose attached to them like the MAP/MDP. GM p/n 1616834,16006833, 16006835, 12219931. Ironically, over time, GM simply included the MAP and BARO sensors into the same part number since they're effectively the same sensor and act the same way. The only difference is the tube to the intake manifold on the MAP.
As a rule of thumb, 307Y and 9 engines (and cars with 305's) take the MDP (GM p/n 16006834) and the V6 and diesels take the MAP (GM p/n 16006833,16006835, 12219931). The sensor is located on the passenger fender top behind the coolant overflow tank. I don't know any other G-body configuration that's different off the top of my head, but if there's one, I'm not sure what it is. It's very important to realize and use the correct sensor. GM made it super easy to tell by making them all look virtually the same! [img]data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7[/img] So you can see it can be very easy to get the wrong type. And the aftermarket doesn't help with alleviating the confusion on this either. More on that in a moment.
First, in a nutshell, the MAP and MDP work similarly to give input to the ECM as far as manifold pressure or vacuum, but send out different voltage signals for the same situation. Think opposite of each other. This signal helps the engine determine the vacuum signal strength and output a voltage signal to the ECM to help adjust fuel to the engine based on what the air pressure in the intake manifold is doing. There are 3 wires to the sensor regardless. A ground (black), a 5V reference voltage (gray) into the sensor, and the signal wire that feeds the info to the ECM (light green or other color).
In cars that use a MAP, the voltage tracks with engine load. Throttle opens, manifold air pressure goes up (vacuum drops), and the voltage output of the MAP goes up. Normally this is 0-5V, so as engine load goes up, so does the voltage output to the ECM. Typically, you probably won't see exactly 5V at all with these reference voltages. Due to materials, connection quality, length of wire, and other resistance issues, you may see stuff close to 5V or whatever. So don't freak out if you're not seeing the exact 0-5V on either end of the spectrum.
The differential pressure sensor that the Y and 9 engines do things a bit differently. As vacuum in the intake increases, or air pressure goes down, the voltage goes up. So as load increases, the vacuum drops and the voltage drops accordingly. Opposite of what the MAP does. The higher the vacuum or colder engine, the more electronic advance you get on the distributor, and the lower the vacuum or hotter engine, the less advance. So you can see rather instantly if you get the wrong sensor, your day won't be a fun one.
You can check your MDP with a volt meter and vacuum hand pump. First, check for any "34" code. This is If you measure voltage from the signal wire (terminal 20 on back of ECM) to ground (terminal 22 on back of ECM) when key is on but engine off, you should see between 0.50-0.64 Volts. Place 10" of vacuum on the sensor port and you should see voltage rise 1.2 to 2.3 volts above whatever it was with key on/engine off. When engine is running with minimum 15" vacuum, you should see over 2 volts. If everything is good there, the MDP is working the way it should. These should be checked with a digital voltmeter because using a scan tool may have a built-in delay. Here you want to see voltage jump rapidly, otherwise it could cause detonation/lag. If you don't get the readings above, then your connector isn't making good contact, or the MDP is likely toast deeming a replacement. The CSM also states that using the vacuum pump you MAY set a false "41" code, which is Loss of Distributor Reference Signal. So it may be good to go back and check for/clear codes when you're done.
Now, here's the fun part. If you go to find an MDP sensor, you must do it by part number only. You can't go off of just looking at one, although if it's an original it may have an 833, 834, or 835 stamped on it, which will tell you which it is. But new ones? Make sure you know what you're getting. A lot of places call everything a MAP sensor, and that just ain't right. MAP and BARO sensors are interchangeable, but not the MDP sensor. To note, these sensors are pretty durable, but they probably weren't used to living 40 years under the hood. So if you're getting quirky timing or things aren't acting right, it could be your MDP sensor.
GM part numbers for a G-body V8 MDP sensor is 16006834, 16054920, and 16231141. THAT IS IT for GM part numbers. Standard Motor Parts shows as AS 10, and Borg Warner is EC1618. Another I saw was Niehoff FE1618 and NAPA is CRB219011. At least NAPA website calls it a differential pressure sensor.
Borg Warner takes the cake. Their MDP sensor EC1618 is listed BOTH ways in their e-catalog, in the same picture. Check it out. Notice it lists MAP sensor, and right underneath it lists it as an MDP sensor. It IS an MDP sensor. Don't know of the newer ones, but I have an older BWD in the box that has the GM logo on the top of it so that should give you an idea who made them for GM at least for a while. It also has "MAP SENSOR" on the end flap right under the part number. Again, this part is NOT a MAP or BARO sensor. It is an MDP.
If you disconnect the battery for a few minutes, the 41 code should clear itself. But if the car is started and it returns, then you still have an issue there.
I'm assuming you're talking about the air cleaner vent from the Air Injection Reaction (A.I.R.) pump? The one located right behind the A/C compressor muffler? Normally, when warmed up, air is pumped to the cat converter 2nd bed and the exhaust via the pipes running to the heads. When the system no longer requires A.I.R., the switching valve swaps to divert the air to the air cleaner so the engine can filter and use the air. You could take that hose going from the pump to the air cleaner completely off, toss it up on a shelf, and the car shouldn't run any different. You're obviously on to something, though if you put it on and now your car is running better. But it confuses me when you say you're still getting the code 41? Something still doesn't smell right.
If it is the long skinny air cleaner hose that taps into the port for the primary choke pull-off (a little "Tee" on the front passenger side of the carb), that's for the intake air diverter valve controlled with the "thermac" system based on ambient temperature. When cold outside, the vacuum is applied from the primary choke pull-off connection on the carburetor the thermal sensor in the air cleaner. This directs the valve closed to outside air and open to exhaust manifold heat stove air. Once the air inside the air cleaner warms up, it will start to adjust vacuum signal and allow the valve to open and draw in air from the normal outside ducting. On some cars, this setup also uses another plastic Tee in the line to supply vacuum signal to the D/P sensor. If this was unplugged, you'd have no d/p signal and possibly could cause a code 41. I'm just guessing here since I'm familiar with G-bodies and not the big bodies. Your setup may be a tad different. Find the D/P sensor under the hood wherever it is, and then check to make sure the electrical plug is tight and the vacuum hose running to it is connected and crack free.
Sorry, just shooting in the dark here. It really depends on how you have your air cleaner and D/P sensor vacuum lines set up. I don't know how Caddys utilized the Olds 307 with the underhood goodies.
The sensor should look something like this...about 2" long or so.
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Here's a quote from another forum I made about the manifold differential pressure sensor but it may help you out here. It's a bit of a read, but it always helps to try and understand what's going on when your car is sick.
The light is only on right after i cranked her up and it shows for 2 seconds,then it goes off and doesnt come back. Once i saw the hose was not connected i knew thats the issue at least for the cel to be permantly on. In 5 years of daily driving her i never had the light constantly on,the light comes on here and there. And once the hose was back on she fires up like she used to do all those years,the last 3 days while the hose was off she was stalling,bogging and smelly its all gone and she runs so smooth, unbelievable. The 307 never let me down but i remember having issues when my preheater hose was cracked,i put a new one back on and she was like new. Every little thing matters and my advantage is i know my car and i know right away when something is not right and now everything is great.
Still, the mechanic has to come again anyway for that 41 code.
That sensor you described is brand new and the lines are fine.
I don't know for sure where the D/P sensor is on your car, but from what I could gather on Caddy forums, it might be back on the firewall by the HVAC housing. I could be wrong, as usual.
EDIT: Ah, never mind about the sensor, then, since you already checked yours. But why you still getting a code 41? Something still ain't right. I'm sure your mechanic should be able to find it, though. It's probably something simple.
I don't know for sure where the D/P sensor is on your car, but from what I could gather on Caddy forums, it might be back on the firewall by the HVAC housing. I could be wrong, as usual.
EDIT: Ah, never mind about the sensor, then, since you already checked yours. But why you still getting a code 41? Something still ain't right. I'm sure your mechanic should be able to find it, though. It's probably something simple.
So now you made me curious, i dont know about a DP sensor, on my Brougham the MAP and BAP sensor are the same but i never heard of a DP sensor.
So now you made me curious, i dont know about a DP sensor, on my Brougham the MAP and BAP sensor are the same but i never heard of a DP sensor.
One of the issues is that many people call the sensor a MAP sensor no matter what it actually is or does. Since they all look similar. So it can get confusing.
You have an 87 Caddy Brougham with a 307 V8, right? Back in 1992, GM listed the part number for your 87 D/P sensor as 16054920.
Again, other GM part numbers for the correct D/P sensor according to the parts information is 16006834 and 16231141.
See here in the 1992 parts book. Part# 16054920. About 1/2 way down the page. 86-87 used the D/P sensor. Not saying this is the issue, but if you put a MAP sensor in it, that MAY be the issue as they work backwards in voltage than a D/P sensor. As stated, all those sensors, MAP, Baro, and D/P, look almost identical from the outside. I've never swapped them so I don't know what would happen, but there's a reason they're the way they are.
And here's one on ebay, erroneously listed as a MAP sensor. It's actually a D/P sensor.
Update: I have the new distributor since 1 week and she ran fine so far. Yesterday i drove her 30 miles to the next city and first traffic light i hit she stalled on me again. This is so frustrating. I bought now a new pcv valve,egr valve and vacuum sensor. I put those in this week. I also started today to replace all vacuum hoses,step by step. Also the mechanic comes back next week and checks the idle itself.
If all those actions dont help i dont know what else to do. I might end up putting her on ebay cause as it is right now its impossible to drive to Florida from North Carolina. I have still 2 more month time but im running out of solutions.
Does it idle fine otherwise? Do you have an overdrive transmission (TH200-4R) or similar? Sorry, don't know what kind of transmissions usually come in an 87 Brougham. If it dies at a stop sign, does it start right away?
I'm asking because SOMETIMES with an OD transmission, the Torque Converter Clutch (TCC) solenoid sticks and doesn't release at the predetermined rpm and follows the engine rpm all the way down to idle. And since it now wants to stay engaged, it wants to keep your torque converter locked up in the drivetrain. It doesn't like that and normally what happens is it kills the engine at a stoplight. If it runs fine on the highway, or while driving, and idles in neutral or park perfectly fine, you can put it in drive, start going and then when it locks up it doesn't want to release. So you may not notice it until the engine is fully warmed and at 40mph or so when the TCC solenoid engages. Then when you come to the first stop sign/light, the transmission won't let go and kills the engine. The problem is, if it's intermittent sticking, it could be a PITA to isolate.
This would incur dropping the pan to change it out if it is the TCC solenoid as it is up in the front of the valve body area. I'm not saying it is or isn't, but it seemingly acts like it. That shouldn't throw any codes like you've been having, but if those codes are now resolved (you didn't mention that), then it's possible that could be at least part of the issue? Just shooting in the dark again.
Does it idle fine otherwise? Do you have an overdrive transmission (TH200-4R) or similar? Sorry, don't know what kind of transmissions usually come in an 87 Brougham. If it dies at a stop sign, does it start right away?
I'm asking because SOMETIMES with an OD transmission, the Torque Converter Clutch (TCC) solenoid sticks and doesn't release at the predetermined rpm and follows the engine rpm all the way down to idle. And since it now wants to stay engaged, it wants to keep your torque converter locked up in the drivetrain. It doesn't like that and normally what happens is it kills the engine at a stoplight. If it runs fine on the highway, or while driving, and idles in neutral or park perfectly fine, you can put it in drive, start going and then when it locks up it doesn't want to release. So you may not notice it until the engine is fully warmed and at 40mph or so when the TCC solenoid engages. Then when you come to the first stop sign/light, the transmission won't let go and kills the engine. The problem is, if it's intermittent sticking, it could be a PITA to isolate.
This would incur dropping the pan to change it out if it is the TCC solenoid as it is up in the front of the valve body area. I'm not saying it is or isn't, but it seemingly acts like it. That shouldn't throw any codes like you've been having, but if those codes are now resolved (you didn't mention that), then it's possible that could be at least part of the issue? Just shooting in the dark again.
Thanks again for your feedback. Awesome. Yes thats exactly the transmission i have. She runs perfect when i crank her up and also the whole week she ran fine. I thought it was fixed.
When she died she fires right up again thats not really the issue but of course i want it fixed. The transmission would be the last thing i look into, i gotta be honest. For now i change the pcv,egr,vavuum sensor and all vacuum hoses, my mechanic checks the car next week and who knows maybe its fixed already then. Some of the hoses i fixed today looked so horrible that im not even wondering why i have that issue. I keep you guys posted here. Thanks again
Thanks again for your feedback. Awesome. Yes thats exactly the transmission i have. She runs perfect when i crank her up and also the whole week she ran fine. I thought it was fixed.
When she died she fires right up again thats not really the issue but of course i want it fixed. The transmission would be the last thing i look into, i gotta be honest. For now i change the pcv,egr,vavuum sensor and all vacuum hoses, my mechanic checks the car next week and who knows maybe its fixed already then. Some of the hoses i fixed today looked so horrible that im not even wondering why i have that issue. I keep you guys posted here. Thanks again
A problem like a leaking vacuum hose doesn't magically fix itself after going bad. That is not the cause of an intermittent problem. A sticking lockup converter CAN cause the engine to stall at idle, and it CAN be intermittent. There is a very simple way to test this. Temporarily disconnect the wire harness that plugs into the transmission. If the car no longer stalls, you've found your problem.
A problem like a leaking vacuum hose doesn't magically fix itself after going bad. That is not the cause of an intermittent problem. A sticking lockup converter CAN cause the engine to stall at idle, and it CAN be intermittent. There is a very simple way to test this. Temporarily disconnect the wire harness that plugs into the transmission. If the car no longer stalls, you've found your problem.
I put that on the list too. Just today from looking 2 min i found 3 completely rotten vacuum hoses and the way you write it sounds like i just leave them on,of course i replaced them and i will replace every other one too. Next week when the mechanic comes back i tell him to disconnect the harness to the transmission and we gonna see. I post a update here then. Thanks again.
Does it idle fine otherwise? Do you have an overdrive transmission (TH200-4R) or similar? Sorry, don't know what kind of transmissions usually come in an 87 Brougham. If it dies at a stop sign, does it start right away?
I'm asking because SOMETIMES with an OD transmission, the Torque Converter Clutch (TCC) solenoid sticks and doesn't release at the predetermined rpm and follows the engine rpm all the way down to idle. And since it now wants to stay engaged, it wants to keep your torque converter locked up in the drivetrain. It doesn't like that and normally what happens is it kills the engine at a stoplight. If it runs fine on the highway, or while driving, and idles in neutral or park perfectly fine, you can put it in drive, start going and then when it locks up it doesn't want to release. So you may not notice it until the engine is fully warmed and at 40mph or so when the TCC solenoid engages. Then when you come to the first stop sign/light, the transmission won't let go and kills the engine. The problem is, if it's intermittent sticking, it could be a PITA to isolate.
This would incur dropping the pan to change it out if it is the TCC solenoid as it is up in the front of the valve body area. I'm not saying it is or isn't, but it seemingly acts like it. That shouldn't throw any codes like you've been having, but if those codes are now resolved (you didn't mention that), then it's possible that could be at least part of the issue? Just shooting in the dark again.
I still have errorcode 41 here and there not permanently. Once she stalled she wont run fine in park or neutral she would die once i take the foot from the gas.
I put that on the list too. Just today from looking 2 min i found 3 completely rotten vacuum hoses and the way you write it sounds like i just leave them on,
And you know very well that's not what I said.
I said a leaking vacuum hose doesn't cause an intermittent problem. It causes a problem that is constant. In your case, depending on what the hoses are for, they may not even be functional at idle. A car that sometimes idles correctly and sometimes stalls has a different problem. Of course, a leaking vacuum hose COULD cause the engine to run just poorly enough that the other intermittent problem now shows up vs. being masked if the hose were not leaking. Use a little common sense when troubleshooting. Clearly any bad hoses need to be replaced, but you still have an intermittent problem.
I said a leaking vacuum hose doesn't cause an intermittent problem. It causes a problem that is constant. In your case, depending on what the hoses are for, they may not even be functional at idle. A car that sometimes idles correctly and sometimes stalls has a different problem. Of course, a leaking vacuum hose COULD cause the engine to run just poorly enough that the other intermittent problem now shows up vs. being masked if the hose were not leaking. Use a little common sense when troubleshooting. Clearly any bad hoses need to be replaced, but you still have an intermittent problem.
Thank you for your response, im gonna post updates as i go. The fact that she runs like a dream usually still gives me hope. But on the other side the fact that the issue comes up so unpredictable is frustrating. Thats all. I really apreciate everybodys help. I take care of her and im willing to fix everything its just the unknown what upsets me.
Blowing my horn. Problem solved,no more stalling. Installed a new pcv valve and grommet,new vacuum tank and the star of the day a new EGR valve. The old one was stucked and completely shot. She now runs better than ever.
Good on you. Glad you stayed at it and solved that issue. This is why it's so hard to troubleshoot over the interwebs. If you're not there, you don't see/hear/smell everything you need to see.
BUT- what about your codes? If you're still getting a 41 and a 12 problem, even intermittently, something else is still not right.
Who would've thought that an EGR would make it run better?! LOL
Seriously, it was probably stuck open, not shut. Maybe? I really don't know how they work; they just get removed and a block off plate installed.
Good on you. Glad you stayed at it and solved that issue. This is why it's so hard to troubleshoot over the interwebs. If you're not there, you don't see/hear/smell everything you need to see.
BUT- what about your codes? If you're still getting a 41 and a 12 problem, even intermittently, something else is still not right.
I now only get code 41 on a cold start for 3 seconds. I gotta leave that for now,for now im happy she runs better than ever.
Here we go again, the stalling is back. This is unbelievable. But thats it. Im done with that car. Its time to get rid of her. I thank everybody for your input,help and effort. Thank you
SOLVED!!!! Of course i didnt gave up,it was just frustrating. Had my mechanic there again today and we focused on the carb and there it was. The source of all evil but still easy to overlook. Its the Idle Load Compensator,the tip of it is supposed to keep the throttle up so its not stalling. But the tip was completely lose and didnt even touched the throttle arm. All the new parts i installed on her and it was all wrong. Im just happy i found the solution.
The ILC is spring-loaded to extend without vacuum. When there is vacuum applied to the port, the plunger retracts. There is a computer controlled solenoid in the CCC system that switches this vacuum. The Chassis Service Manual explains exactly how to adjust this. None of this has anything to do with an Error Code 41, by the way. Note that the OBD I system on these cars is really limited in capability. There are far more failures that won't set a code than will. Unless whoever is working on this takes the time to read and understand the CSM, they stand a very low chance of finding the root of most problems.
The ILC is spring-loaded to extend without vacuum. When there is vacuum applied to the port, the plunger retracts. There is a computer controlled solenoid in the CCC system that switches this vacuum. The Chassis Service Manual explains exactly how to adjust this. None of this has anything to do with an Error Code 41, by the way. Note that the OBD I system on these cars is really limited in capability. There are far more failures that won't set a code than will. Unless whoever is working on this takes the time to read and understand the CSM, they stand a very low chance of finding the root of most problems.
The spring inside the ILC is shot and you could watch how shes stalling because the ILC cant catch the throttle. The problem is solved,thats all i care about. I apreciate all the input but at the end advice via internet is always tough. Im just happy i didnt went into transmission work. Somebody mentioned here the TCC.
