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I'm checking out a '72 Cutlass supposedly with the 455 "born with the car story." The car is automatic transmission with the usual story "442 appearance package.". I see no U or V in the VIN number telling me the car was not originally assembled with a 455.
I obtained the following numbers and what is in this '72 Cutlass??
VIN: 3J67M2M192131
Heads: C
Block 396021Fa
VIn Derivative: 68M157405
Undoubtedly not numbers matching... lol. C heads with a Fa block and vin derivative 68M157405?
What is in this car please.....
The block number shows it is a 455. The vin derivative on the block should start with a 3 not 6. 38M157405 would be a motor from 1968 Lansing build car with a vin ending in 157407. The vin on the car shows it came from the factory with a 350 4bbl with dual exhaust. That doesn’t mean it’s not a w29 car just that it didn’t come with a 455.
The 442 appearance package.
Is the correct statement. Because in 72 the 442 went back to an appearance and suspension package.
It was no longer it's own model.
3J67 indicates a Cutlass Supreme convertible. The first "M", as noted, shows the car was born with a 350 4bbl dual exhaust motor, rated at 200 HP net. RPO W29 COULD have been ordered with this car, but there is no way to prove that without a build sheet or other documentation. One telltale is the chrome rocker trim. This was standard on Supremes but was deleted with RPO W29. Most clones neglect remove this trim, so if the trim is there, it is certainly is not a real 442. Yes, a well done clone could have had the trim removed, so still not proof.
3J67 indicates a Cutlass Supreme convertible. The first "M", as noted, shows the car was born with a 350 4bbl dual exhaust motor, rated at 200 HP net. RPO W29 COULD have been ordered with this car, but there is no way to prove that without a build sheet or other documentation. One telltale is the chrome rocker trim. This was standard on Supremes but was deleted with RPO W29. Most clones neglect remove this trim, so if the trim is there, it is certainly is not a real 442. Yes, a well done clone could have had the trim removed, so still not proof.
I agree!! The car does not have the rocker mouldings. The car can't have the matching numbers '72 455 engine in the car based on the VIN number and VIN derivative number stamped on the engine and provided. Looks like the '72 car has a 1968 455 CI engine from who knows what model car??
And another point I failed to mention. The car is being represented as the original 455ci engine. I see no U or V in the VIN. Therefore, the car could not have been born with a 455 engine and the engine in the car doesn't match and is from a different year??
And another point I failed to mention. The car is being represented as the original 455ci engine. I see no U or V in the VIN. Therefore, the car could not have been born with a 455 engine and the engine in the car doesn't match and is from a different year??
Actually, you did say that in the first post. In any case, either the seller is uninformed or lying. Worry about the validity of any other claims made. The VIN very clearly shows the car was born with a 350 4bbl motor. There is no fuzz on this whatsoever.
I'm checking out a '72 Cutlass supposedly with the 455 "born with the car story." The car is automatic transmission with the usual story "442 appearance package.".
If the price is right its a cool car, whether it was a 350 convertible or a 442 with a swapped engine.
Originally Posted by 4speed455
The block number shows it is a 455. The vin derivative on the block should start with a 3 not 6. 38M157405 would be a motor from 1968 Lansing build car with a vin ending in 157407.
Nice !
Originally Posted by 4speed455
The vin on the car shows it came from the factory with a 350 4bbl with dual exhaust. That doesn’t mean it’s not a w29 car just that it didn’t come with a 455.
Very nice ! This is the best factory Olds small block available in 1972 and the same whether its a 442 option or just a plain jane Cutlass.
Originally Posted by twilightblue28A
The car does not have the rocker mouldings.
Exciting isn't it, like a killer scratch-off card and the numbers are lining up...
Originally Posted by twilightblue28A
Looks like the '72 car has a 1968 455 CI engine from who knows what model car??
You cant lose here twilight, every single 455 Oldsmobile ever produced is more powerful than a code M 350, when true dual exhaust. And a 68 455 is a very good one.
In the end twilight if it being a 442 is what may seal the deal, you may want to check out Oldsmobile Junction. They have a very elaborate checklist for trying to authentic this model 442. Bonus, Joe P contributed to the verification info.
If the price is right its a cool car, whether it was a 350 convertible or a 442 with a swapped engine.
Nice !
Very nice ! This is the best factory Olds small block available in 1972 and the same whether its a 442 option or just a plain jane Cutlass.
Exciting isn't it, like a killer scratch-off card and the numbers are lining up...
You cant lose here twilight, every single 455 Oldsmobile ever produced is more powerful than a code M 350, when true dual exhaust. And a 68 455 is a very good one.
In the end twilight if it being a 442 is what may seal the deal, you may want to check out Oldsmobile Junction. They have a very elaborate checklist for trying to authentic this model 442. Bonus, Joe P contributed to the verification info.
I get it. Please understand the car was originally represented as a '72 442 with the original to the car numbers matching 455 CI engine and numbers matching transmission until I checked the numbers. I haven't begun to identify the transmission.
The seller also told me that he has the build sheet. I haven't received a copy despite multiple requests.
I was told the car was born paint code 19 (black) with a B (black) convertible top. The current color is not black. I reviewed the trim tag and the paint code is 57 (baroque gold) with a B (black top). I haven't seen photographs of the underside to clarify whether or not the car has boxed control arms and a sway bar. I do know the dash has 442 badging and should have Cutlass Supreme badging.
Given the multiple "errors" in the sellers representations, he either doesn't know what he has or at best is being disingenuous.
One of the reasons that I originally provided the VIN number and engine VIN derivative.was to determine the actual engine in the car; 68 455 CI.
Regardless of whether or not the car has the 442 appearance option, the '72 Cutlass does not the have the original 455 CI engine,
And, the original hood was replaced with a W25 OAI.
The build sheet is supposed to be presented today. We'll see.....Many inconsistencies. .
I don't believe the car is worth low 50's.
I'll keep you informed.
As always, I appreciate your help. Thank you!! To be continued.
Last edited by twilightblue28A; Feb 5, 2020 at 02:50 AM.
Build sheet for a Lansing car? Not that it did not have one rolling down the line. But for someone produce a valid one, is yet to be seen!
Broadcast card from Fisher, quite likely! And that will show W29.
Build sheet for a Lansing car? Not that it did not have one rolling down the line. But for someone produce a valid one, is yet to be seen!
Broadcast card from Fisher, quite likely! And that will show W29.
Pat
Thanks Pat!! I may have expressed myself wrong. Let's see if I am able to obtain the requested broadcast card. The last I was told, the broadcast card was "in another file."
Sorry for my confusion.
In the end twilight if it being a 442 is what may seal the deal, you may want to check out Oldsmobile Junction. They have a very elaborate checklist for trying to authentic this model 442. Bonus, Joe P contributed to the verification info.
The link provides good info, but I'm a bit confused regarding references to the rear wing on the 72 model as I thought it was not available for that year.
The OAI hood was a separate option, and the notched bumper came standard with the 455 motor. All small block cars came without notched bumper unless specifically ordered. BTW, there was no additional cost when ordering different gears. The 70-72 442 wings were fiberglass, not aluminum.
Today is the fourth day the seller has promised to send me the cars broadcast card. He just responded apologizing that he is "super busy." I'm done with the stories and excuses. Especially for a '72 Cutlass selling for low 50's and a different engine and transmission.
OK guys, I did a quick google of the VIN. This car listed for sale at $ 29,900 with 10,624 miles. And now the OP is looking at it for a listing price of $ 52,900 with only 50 new miles (10,674).
Something seems to be bad wrong with this picture. IMPO.
On Edit: When it was listed at $ 29,900, it was a Cutlass Supreme Convertible (though in the copy they do mention that it is a 442). I reckon when it jumped to being offered as a 442 Convertible it qualified to jump $ 23,000 to $ 52,900
OK guys, I did a quick google of the VIN. This car listed for sale at $ 29,900 with 10,624 miles. And now the OP is looking at it for a listing price of $ 52,900 with only 50 new miles (10,674).
Something seems to be bad wrong with this picture. IMPO.
On Edit: When it was listed at $ 29,900, it was a Cutlass Supreme Convertible (though in the copy they do mention that it is a 442). I reckon when it jumped to being offered as a 442 Convertible it qualified to jump $ 23,000 to $ 52,900
Thank you!! Unbelievable!! And the seller is ducking multiple offers to send the broadcast card????
http://capcityautocollections.com/
(844) 294-5009
Be Careful.
Last edited by twilightblue28A; Feb 5, 2020 at 01:23 PM.
I am attaching photographs of the '72 with the"442 appearance option." The photographs show the car in the "original triple black.". The car was originally #57 baroque gold, black top and black interior. The current color is white.
You will see 442, not Cutlass Supreme on the glovebox. According to the seller, this photograph depicts the car in it's "original triple black" paint. Another photograph of the car in it's "original triple black" paint. Photograph of the trim tag. Please note the paint code 57. Photograph of the vin derivative of the "original 455 engine born with the car."
Thankfully, I knew to ask for the vin number and compare the vin derivative to the car. Now I understand why sellers become defensive when asked for vin derivatives of the engines, transmissions, broadcast cards and other documentation.
The seller currently knows that the "engine and transmission are not original to the car." Further, the seller told me today that the car has a '72 455 CI engine.
I know everyone is entitled to a reasonable profit, but the profit margin on this car is excessive.
The link provides good info, but I'm a bit confused regarding references to the rear wing on the 72 model as I thought it was not available for that year.
I'm confused as to why you think something on the web is naturally true...
That link is simply a cut-and-paste copy of the Olds FAQ, which is well known to have errors. I'll repeat this for folks who have missed it. That Oldsmobile FAQ is simply a compendium of posts from the ancient Chubecto Oldsmobile mailserver from the late 1980s. A member named David Brown simply collected interesting posts and published them as the FAQ. There was no real fact-checking, so take all of it with a grain of salt. David did try to credit the authors of posts that he used, but that's the extent of it. People have tried to claim that I said something in the FAQ simply because my name (along with several others) was at the bottom of a section that they quoted.
It's time to walk away or run! The rocker molding from the supreme as Joe said is almost a dead give away. And not insult your intelligence, 442 on the glove box is incorrect for 72. Even a real 442 vert would still have Cutlass supreme.
It's time to walk away or run! The rocker molding from the supreme as Joe said is almost a dead give away. And not insult your intelligence, 442 on the glove box is incorrect for 72. Even a real 442 vert would still have Cutlass supreme.
Pat
What bothers me is the seller lied about the car having the original matching numbers engine and transmission. Also, notwithstanding multiple promises, the build sheet was not provided. I am done.
This is to serve as my warning to other potentials buyers to look elsewhere.
I appreciate all our members help.
In the end twilight if it being a 442 is what may seal the deal, you may want to check out Oldsmobile Junction. They have a very elaborate checklist for trying to authentic this model 442. Bonus, Joe P contributed to the verification info.
The link provides good info, but I'm a bit confused regarding references to the rear wing on the 72 model as I thought it was not available for that year.
The OAI hood was a separate option, and the notched bumper came standard with the 455 motor. All small block cars came without notched bumper unless specifically ordered. BTW, there was no additional cost when ordering different gears. The 70-72 442 wings were fiberglass, not aluminum.
Originally Posted by joe_padavano
I'm confused as to why you think something on the web is naturally true...
That link is simply a cut-and-paste copy of the Olds FAQ, which is well known to have errors. I'll repeat this for folks who have missed it. That Oldsmobile FAQ is simply a compendium of posts from the ancient Chubecto Oldsmobile mailserver from the late 1980s. A member named David Brown simply collected interesting posts and published them as the FAQ. There was no real fact-checking, so take all of it with a grain of salt. David did try to credit the authors of posts that he used, but that's the extent of it. People have tried to claim that I said something in the FAQ simply because my name (along with several others) was at the bottom of a section that they quoted.
Oh boy, sorry about that guys. I was trying to help not add confusion. My apologies Joe I only added your name for credibility. Too bad the FAQ has to be taken so lightly. So much info listed and laid out in such a comprehensive way.
Originally Posted by twilightblue28A
What bothers me is the seller lied about the car having the original matching numbers engine and transmission. Also, notwithstanding multiple promises, the build sheet was not provided. I am done.
This is to serve as my warning to other potentials buyers to look elsewhere.
I appreciate all our members help.
Well, sounds like you dodged a bullet. Good for you, imagine had you gone forward on face value...
Oh boy, sorry about that guys. I was trying to help not add confusion. My apologies Joe I only added your name for credibility. Too bad the FAQ has to be taken so lightly. So much info listed and laid out in such a comprehensive way.
Well, sounds like you dodged a bullet. Good for you, imagine had you gone forward on face value...
Absolutely!! Thankfully, I know enough about the '72's to look for the U,V or X code. The lack of any of those codes raised the red flag. Numbers provided didn't tie into the VIN. And after another member posted the car was purchased for 23K and is currently selling for 53K, over a 100% profit margin, I really became disturbed.
The seller insists the engine is a '72 455 and now admits the car was born with a 350CI 4bbl.and now admits the car was originally born #57, baroque gold. He may be monitoring our site. Irrespective of whether he is or isn't monitoring our site, I want all of our members to know the seller is: Capital City Auto Collection, Mike Reed, (844) 294-5009: Cel number,517-719-0190; Email: mreedcapcityauto@gmail.com Website: http://capcityautocollections.com/ The car is currently white with a black convertible top and black interior. The car is also listed on other websites.
BEWARE!
He must be related to "Joe from Itasca" Exhibit A
Last edited by twilightblue28A; Feb 6, 2020 at 04:38 AM.
Thanks twilight, this is a helpful learning experience for many CO members who are not as savvy as they would like to be regarding 72 442s. Sorting through seller BS can be very challenging.
And that’s one of the purposes of this wonderful community - to fill in knowledge gaps. 1972 is a tricky year for 442s, and has got to be the most faked /cloned year of any 442.
Doubling the price when a seller wants to pretend his cutlass is a 442 is probably why, and also why there is great value to discussions such as this.
Even beyond specific model experience, I have learned quite a lot from googling the VIN. It is not always successful but, when it is, it can save a buyer from a lot of heart ache. Published VIN postings / info saved me from buying at least (2) cars that I was very interested in until I found the sales history of the cars....and how they changed.
When you catch someone in a lie, you learn more than that the information is wrong; you learn that the person cannot be trusted. The first lie should have made that car poisoned fruit to any buyer.
