Elephant_Engine_Ernie

A fairly broad topic but with the level of expertise on this site, it would be helpful if we discussed some of these obscure "1 of xxx" metrics that are often published for the 1970 W-Machines. It would be nice to come to a consensus based on our knowledge, as well as our findings, and educate the masses. Post what you have for the W-Machines, as well as the source, and let's see where we end up. Here is what I have.

1970 W-30 4-speeds (no 3-speed manuals)
Holiday Coupe 1,032 of 2,574 (40%)
Sports Coupe 142 of 262 (54%)
Convertible 96 of 264 (36%)

1970 442 W-30 4400 Series

August 1969: 0
September 1969: 0
October 1969: 367
November 1969: 643
December 1969: 366
January 1970: 420
February 1970: 321
March 1970: 324
April 1970: 291
May 1970: 203
June 1970: 155
July 1970: 10
TOTAL: 3100

1970 W-31 3200 Series

August 1969: 0
September 1969: 0
October 1969: 0
November 1969: 33
December 1969: 46
January 1970: 13
February 1970: 39
March 1970: 26
April 1970: 42
May 1970: 6
June 1970: 2
July 1970: 0
TOTAL: 207*
*I've seen numbers posted on this site of a breakdown of 54 automatics and 153 4-speed F-85 cars, but the numbers listed don't have a source. Can anyone confirm?

1970 W-31 3600 Series

August 1969: 0
September 1969: 0
October 1969: 139
November 1969: 198
December 1969: 193
January 1970: 99
February 1970: 150
March 1970: 97
April 1970: 187
May 1970: 63
June 1970: 19
July 1970: 0
TOTAL: 1145 (1,029 Cutlass S Holiday coupes and 116 Cutlass Sports coupes)

What doesn't make sense is how the breakdown is available for the 1970 W-30 but NOT 3-speeds and 4-speeds for the 1970 W-31.

W-27 Aluminum Axle Carriers

1970: 355 (This doesn't include the number of axle carriers sold over the counter)

Source: Kurt Shubert's findings from GM Heritage Center


Rallye 350 Production

F-85 Club coupe 1,020
Cutlass Sports coupe 160**
Cutlass Holiday coupe 2,367***
TOTAL: 3,547

Source: Oldsmobile History Center sourced by Helen Early 04/1989
**Published on this site was the rumor of 12 Cutlass Sports coupe 4-speeds which sounds low
***I've heard numbers like 25 Cutlass S Holiday coupe 4-speeds, but that number also seems very low based on the percentages proven out for the W-30.

joe_padavano

Kurt and Diego have accessed an incredible amount of production data at the Heritage Center. That data is not easily accessed, nor is it well catalogued. It's not that the information isn't available, it's that no one has necessarily spent the time to dig it out. This isn't something that's in a searchable database. We've all been spoiled by Google.

Elephant_Engine_Ernie

I don't want it to seem that I'm not appreciative of the work they've done. I know talking with Kurt years ago when he first gained access to the data at the Heritage Center that it was a tedious process. Thank you to Diego and Kurt for their efforts.

joe_padavano

And I certainly didn't take it that way, just pointing out the reality of life - boxes of poorly-indexed paper documents to slog through.

70-442-W30

I would add something to your numbers above, but unfortunately the numbers I have, you have also. Nothing new for me to add.

This is a huge topic of interest for people who enjoy this data though. Maybe BlackGold will post something here as he seems to also have a love for the numbers.

Diego

I was lucky enough to tag along with Kurt once so, yeah, I've seen what the GMHC has.

I've also seen Helen Early's binder with production info, one page for each year. In some page and with some models, there's additional info, like the number of diesels or T-tops, etc.

But none of the records she had access to seem to be in the GMHC's archive. I've never seen docs on how many W30s were sticks, so all we have to go by are the numbers that have been handed down to us from 35 years ago. What if they're wrong?

I've never seen stick W31 numbers published at all. I think "54 automatics and 153 4-speed F-85 cars" makes a hell of a lot more sense than the other numbers, but since we don't know where they came from, I personally would not quote them. The 12 and 25 4-speeds are hogwash and make no sense, especially since a performance car should have a higher percentage of sticks than that. But what if there was a grain of truth in those numbers? Maybe someone who had access to those records indeed did see 12 and 25, but maybe they were M21 (versus M20)? By word of mouth, it could have turned into total number of 4-speeds....whatever the case, they are undocumented numbers and I hate to see them perpetuated by people whose only agenda is $$$$.

Another undocumented lie is 10 1971 W30 ragtops built with AC.

70-442-W30

Diego, when I was pushing them for numbers, Jim Vehko of the Historical Center offered me an invite to meet with their archivist. What exactly is involved in that process?

Diego

I dunno - just make an appointment? I'll be there next week before Pure Stock Drags.

70-442-W30

Good you are getting there. Any focus in particular you have for this trip? Also, do they allow you to take pictures of the documentation?

Diego

I usually take notes to compile for later. Currently working on 1967-68 Pontiacs. I have some 1964 Olds numbers but they are much more complicated than the Pontiac stuff. Also have some manual tranny and J2 numbers, plus random notes from Helen Early's binder.

My intention is to continue what Fred Simmonds did in 1989, like this.

davebw31

I know for a fact that the 70' W31 numbers for automatic and 4 speed are 53-auto and 154 4 speeds. How do I know this to be factual? I knew the W31 was no more and I constantly was reviewing the production numbers via micro-fiche for quality and warranty info as part of my job. I ordered the last W-31 F85 on the last Friday of April, 1970, at 4:45 PM, which is the cut off date/time for production orders for a car to be built. I personally filled out the Warehouse order and had one of our in-house sale rep sign/approve it. Then I personally took it down to the basement of building 70 were "key punch" was located to initiate the "order".

You know I liked Helen Early and she was good at her job in the Public Relations Dept. , however her info was not always accurate. I had to correct her on several occasions about "Olds" facts in production, especially W cars/Rally 350s, and other limited production models. I even went so far as to document to her that there where NO Rally 350 s sold with the W31 option, which she told people that there were "5 or 6 built". There was two built, one auto and one 4 speed for engineering and sales to evaluate. Sales killed that option for the Rally 350 as the whole idea of that model concept sold to GM corporate, was to be a model to compete in price with the Ply. Road Runner or as it was know as "the Road Runner Fighter"! Also that W31 option if available for the Rally 350 would have been in conflict with the F-85/Cutlass/Cutlass S model sales and would have drove the price higher. GM corporate mandated that the Rally 350 be within $50.00 of the base Road Runner. Have you ever wondered why we built so many Rally 350 post coupe bodies?

jharsh

Dave,
Would love to hear more. I remember you telling me something about the possible colors that were considered. What were they and how did they finally decide on yellow.

mrolds69

I'm not trying to derail the thread. I THINK the rallye colors were purple + lime green (maybe orange). I THINK a couple were built to gauge public reaction. I also THINK I've seen a pic of them some place.

Diego

Dave, with all due respect, I wouldn't rely on anyone's memories from 46 years ago. Those numbers could be valid, but they're undocumented.

davebw31

Diego: I have those numbers/info written down on a piece of note paper with my name and a Olds Rocket symbol at the top of it somewhere in my stash of papers. Also, I ordered the last W-31 built as a "Brass Hat" car, drove it for 3,000 miles, and then bought it through Labadie Olds. Because early in 1970 at a meeting I got the info that the W31 option was not carrying over to 1971 model run due to emissions/lower performance and I was going to be ready to buy one (A Body with W option) in a few months. I studied the W option production figures pretty much during that time till I ordered one in late April. There are things you just do not forget in life when it is "drilled in to your mind". Remember "Flash Cards" in math. well to this day I do. It is like the guy I watched install A body fuel tanks for four hours and I can still to this day vividly see that! I don't make comments like this unless I am 100% sure and 45 years has nothing to do with my memory!

jharsh: There were four (4) colors used for testing of employee and public opinion. Each o0f the four (4) colors were painted on four (4) 1969 Cutlass S hardtops, driven by engineers. Grape (dark purple), Lime (green, just a shade lighter and less glaring than the Ply/Dodge Lime Green). Apple (candy apple red), and Banana (Sebring Yellow). Sebring Yellow was choose because it was already in the system and the paint suppliers were consistent in quality and pigment, Plus the cost of those other three (3) custom colors would have added to the build cost!.

Diego

I understand that you wouldn't make the comment if you were not 100% sure, but it cannot be cross-referenced.

Besides, I've been 100% sure and I've been wrong. I've also written wrong info by mistake. Hell, I've seen factory docs that don't agree with each other!

oldsmobiledave

Dave


What happened to the two W-31 equipped Rallye 350 cars after sales & engineering got done with their evaluation?


Were they scrapped? Were the engines pulled & regular 350s installed & then sold off? Or????

davebw31

oldsmobiledave: I believe they were not driven very many miles. I saw them in the engineering parking lot and in the engineering garage on various occasions. After I attended a meeting just belore "the strike" started in late Nov. 1969, I saw both of them having their drive-lines removed. I also noticed two complete 310 HP 350 C. I, engines, with one each, 4speed and auto. trans., in broken down crates. I asked one of the mechanics "obviously they were not going to be scrapped since they were changing out drive-lines, what was going to happen to them". He told me "that they were going to Story to be sold as Brass Hat cars". Now these two cars were painted Sebring Yellow and they did have chrome bumpers, but no striping or W31 emblems. Other than that they were Rally 350s. One was a F-85 Sport Coupe with Cutlass emblems and the other a Hardtop Cutlass S. Did not pay attention to which one was 4 speed or auto. I heard from a sales rep that they sold pretty fast!

70-442-W30

davebw31, I like hearing the history you had with the company. It is a good thing we have someone on here that was actually there when Oldsmobile's best muscle was built. What a cool time that must have been.

Do we have any additions to Elephant_Engine_Ernie's numbers? I'm thankful you posted this, EEE. It needs to get more visibility and hopefully more additions/clarifications. There has to be a lot of people with interest in this topic.

davebw31

Yes, I was very fortunate to work for Olds during the "Performance Years" and to get in to the "inner circle". To this day I truly regret quitting and moving to Florida to run that Olds dealership for Mr. Story!

You probably wouldn't believe what I saw, experienced, and was involved with during those years! It truly was "AWSOME". I will always be loyal to the Oldsmobile marque as I was taught so much, saw some really neat things, and the total experience is something I cherish everyday!

70-442-W30

I have to ask you this since I have nobody else to ask that would know. And yes, Diego (and others) I know that I cannot accept whatever answer I get as truth without data to back it up.

But, Dave...just wondering. Do you remember if the W-30 started production in the beginning of October 1969 or if it was the middle of the month? I know, total shot in the dark, but the Heritage Center says they don't have production records for Oct, other than the 367 for the first month.

70-442-W30

Bump for more data.

Diego

Picked up some more 1964 data, but it's gonna be awhile till I get it compiled.

Jacoz70442

I just ran across this thread looking for more details on Sebring Yellow. Had no idea Olds tested other colors for Ralleye 350. Has anyone seen these or have any idea where the other three color cars went?

no1oldsfan

I know this thread is old but I have ask. Are there any pictures of those test color cars?