1970 Pace Car at Mecum Auction 1 of 3
October 17th, 2012, 11:07 AM
#1
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1970 Pace Car at Mecum Auction 1 of 3
There is a 1970 Cutlass Pace Car advertised at the upcoming Mecum Auction in St Charles October 25-27. It is Lot # S109. Car is being advertised as one of only 3 Pace Cars sold in Canada - and the only 4 speed car with a COPO production. Was surprised at the extremely low number of Pace Cars to Canada. And I do not know what the COPO ( Central Office Production Order ) description is referring to
http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_de...e=&startRow=61
http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_de...e=&startRow=61
October 17th, 2012, 12:04 PM
#2
"Car"mudgeon
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Perry, GA
Posts: 5,191
It is referring to a Special Order High Performance engine only available to racers according to a source that claims to have GM of Canada documents on this car. Most people believe COPO to be a Chevy term, as to where I believe it was a GM term.
October 17th, 2012, 12:24 PM
#5
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ohio
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Auction descriptions are habitually full of misinformation. I wouldn't believe any of the claims without seeing documentation. Far too much trash talk out there.
Okay, call it what you want, but Oldsmobile did not have Central Office Production Orders, where Chevy did.
Okay, call it what you want, but Oldsmobile did not have Central Office Production Orders, where Chevy did.
October 17th, 2012, 12:26 PM
#6
If they put a cooler on this car they did not use the automatic transmission radiator cooler. The cooler lines to/from the rad are not present in this picture.
Did GM production ever use an external cooler on manual shift transmissions in this era?
Adam
Did GM production ever use an external cooler on manual shift transmissions in this era?
Adam
October 17th, 2012, 12:40 PM
#7
"Car"mudgeon
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Perry, GA
Posts: 5,191
COPO just means Central Office Production Order, which is a way to order an option that could not be ordered by RPO (Regular Production Order). A GM term not a Chevy specific term. Just like the way my Cutlass Supreme was ordered. And yes Oldsmobile had a Corporate Office that made the call on whether or not any special order car was approved or not, duh.
October 17th, 2012, 01:35 PM
#8
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Any special paint order, or special engine had to go through the channels, and ended up in C.O.P.O for approval.........
COPO just means Central Office Production Order, which is a way to order an option that could not be ordered by RPO (Regular Production Order). A GM term not a Chevy specific term. Just like the way my Cutlass Supreme was ordered. And yes Oldsmobile had a Corporate Office that made the call on whether or not any special order car was approved or not, duh.
COPO just means Central Office Production Order, which is a way to order an option that could not be ordered by RPO (Regular Production Order). A GM term not a Chevy specific term. Just like the way my Cutlass Supreme was ordered. And yes Oldsmobile had a Corporate Office that made the call on whether or not any special order car was approved or not, duh.
October 17th, 2012, 01:57 PM
#10
"Car"mudgeon
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Perry, GA
Posts: 5,191
Just because Oldsmobile didn't use the term COPO doesn't mean they didn't have a Corporate Office and it was the same principle as Chevy's COPO cars. All Special Order cars had to get approval from Oldsmobile executives or else every dealer in the nation would order whatever at will. This particular car the OP is referring to was special ordered in Canada through an avenue called COPO. And there is GM of Canada bulletproof documentation that states it as "SPECIAL HIGH PERFRMANCE(C.O.P.O) engine only available to racers"
This is Canadian ordered and prior to 1967 this type of order refers to C.S.L. (Canadian Special Parts List) Catalogue, and for subsequent years after refer to C.O.P.O. (Central Office Production Order) Catalogue.
Same principle in the US, dealers had special lists of specific parts or paint that were not offered to the public as RPO but could be approved through certain avenues. Not every COPO option was high performance either, in fact very few were. Most were specifically for fleet vehicles that did receive special chassis and paint such as police cars and the such.
This is Canadian ordered and prior to 1967 this type of order refers to C.S.L. (Canadian Special Parts List) Catalogue, and for subsequent years after refer to C.O.P.O. (Central Office Production Order) Catalogue.
Same principle in the US, dealers had special lists of specific parts or paint that were not offered to the public as RPO but could be approved through certain avenues. Not every COPO option was high performance either, in fact very few were. Most were specifically for fleet vehicles that did receive special chassis and paint such as police cars and the such.
October 18th, 2012, 07:06 AM
#13
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what dont you like jrzybob? 
fake documents? wrong vin plate on firewall. you seem to know alot more about this car than anyone else. was it yours at one time? 
cmon, are you bidding on the car? 
fake documents? wrong vin plate on firewall. you seem to know alot more about this car than anyone else. was it yours at one time? cmon, are you bidding on the car?
October 18th, 2012, 07:14 AM
#14
Have fun guys - live in fantasy land.
The document is a fake - and unless it was backed up by the GM Canada Printout (which came from Lansing and is available, and should be requested by the buyer) I stand on what I say.
The terminology in the letter does no match the usual letters delivered by GM Canada.
So when the person buys this car with the "VERY HIGH PERFORMANCE ENGINE" (What would that be, I wonder). I hope they get the real documentation for it.
Ya'll have a nice day.
The document is a fake - and unless it was backed up by the GM Canada Printout (which came from Lansing and is available, and should be requested by the buyer) I stand on what I say.
The terminology in the letter does no match the usual letters delivered by GM Canada.
So when the person buys this car with the "VERY HIGH PERFORMANCE ENGINE" (What would that be, I wonder). I hope they get the real documentation for it.
Ya'll have a nice day.
October 18th, 2012, 07:21 AM
#16
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 573
Hey guys
Remember , with the VIN number stated for the car - that now anyone can call GM Canada Vintage Vehicle Services and get the GM docs for this car.
Now to get rid of "fake" documented GM Canada cars, the service now includes for an extra fee an embossed stamped seal on the paperwork to confirm authenticity of the car and the paperwork!
The service costs about 75 Canadian dollars.
Call George Z at GM Canada Vintage Vehicle Services to really find out!!!
Something doesn't seem right - I have 3 GM Canada documented W cars and the terminology on the paperwork is very different and so is the font used on the print out!
Cheers,
Sam
Remember , with the VIN number stated for the car - that now anyone can call GM Canada Vintage Vehicle Services and get the GM docs for this car.
Now to get rid of "fake" documented GM Canada cars, the service now includes for an extra fee an embossed stamped seal on the paperwork to confirm authenticity of the car and the paperwork!
The service costs about 75 Canadian dollars.
Call George Z at GM Canada Vintage Vehicle Services to really find out!!!
Something doesn't seem right - I have 3 GM Canada documented W cars and the terminology on the paperwork is very different and so is the font used on the print out!
Cheers,
Sam
Last edited by 72xw30; October 18th, 2012 at 07:27 AM.
October 18th, 2012, 07:25 AM
#17
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Join Date: May 2011
Location: Delta BC Canada
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The fact that some loser has faked & altered these docs does not surprise me & it does not discount the real unaltered GM of Canada documentation on other cars.....mine included. Also in recent times the documentation costs $75. For an extra fee one can get an embossed stamped seal on the paperwork to confirm authenticity of the car and the paperwork!
If anyone is interested 1 of the alleged two automatic trans 1970 Pace Car rag tops sold in Canada was sold new in Saskatoon SK & is still there today.
EDIT....I got thinking about this....there were 2 pace car convertibles in Saskatoon...one was a fully restored car & then there was another one needing resto...I remeber looking at the car & seeing the Y-74 on the cowl tag & informing the owner that it was a real Pace Car. With that info he kept the car & decided to restore it. Never saw that car again after that. That would have been in the summer of 1993 since I moved to Calgary from Saskatoon that fall.
This being the case with 2 cars in Saskatoon & this one from the Vancouver area that accounts for the 3 the seller claims were sold new in Canada. I will not be surprised if there were more than 3.
Last edited by oldsmobiledave; October 18th, 2012 at 12:09 PM.
October 18th, 2012, 08:19 AM
#21
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Seneca Falls, NY
Posts: 5,261
Originally Posted by 72XW30
Hey guys
Remember , with the VIN number stated for the car - that now anyone can call GM Canada Vintage Vehicle Services and get the GM docs for this car.
Now to get rid of "fake" documented GM Canada cars, the service now includes for an extra fee an embossed stamped seal on the paperwork to confirm authenticity of the car and the paperwork!
The service costs about 75 Canadian dollars.
Call George Z at GM Canada Vintage Vehicle Services to really find out!!!
Something doesn't seem right - I have 3 GM Canada documented W cars and the terminology on the paperwork is very different and so is the font used on the print out!
Cheers,
Sam
Remember , with the VIN number stated for the car - that now anyone can call GM Canada Vintage Vehicle Services and get the GM docs for this car.
Now to get rid of "fake" documented GM Canada cars, the service now includes for an extra fee an embossed stamped seal on the paperwork to confirm authenticity of the car and the paperwork!
The service costs about 75 Canadian dollars.
Call George Z at GM Canada Vintage Vehicle Services to really find out!!!
Something doesn't seem right - I have 3 GM Canada documented W cars and the terminology on the paperwork is very different and so is the font used on the print out!
Cheers,
Sam
October 18th, 2012, 08:42 AM
#22
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 573
Hi
Just talked to George Z at The GM Canada Vintage Vehicle Service about the car. I have just requested the docs, he is going to fax me back with what he finds about the car. I provided the VIN number to him and didn't tell him anything about the car except for its a 1970 Cutlass.
This cost me 135.60. The paperwork will also have a SEAL stamped into it to confirm authenticity of the paperwork and the car.
Will keep you posted - will know today!
Sam
Just talked to George Z at The GM Canada Vintage Vehicle Service about the car. I have just requested the docs, he is going to fax me back with what he finds about the car. I provided the VIN number to him and didn't tell him anything about the car except for its a 1970 Cutlass.
This cost me 135.60. The paperwork will also have a SEAL stamped into it to confirm authenticity of the paperwork and the car.
Will keep you posted - will know today!
Sam
October 18th, 2012, 09:00 AM
#25
Oh Yeah! This is good! Sort of like waiting to see who shot J.R. Ewing. I do have a pretty dumb question. Were the pace cars 442's or Cutlasses? I've never paid that close attention to them but noticed this one had Cutlass fender badges.
October 18th, 2012, 11:12 AM
#35
Lansing built
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Grand Ledge, MI
Posts: 3,228
definite fake, just like most said wordings wrong, some options codes and descriptions are wrong, vehicle description from GM of Canada you like to think it would say Cutlass Supreme Convertible.
For the experts could you get a inside locking hood latch with the W-25 hood. Per picture hood/saftey latch is not there! but interior picture shows the lock.
For the experts could you get a inside locking hood latch with the W-25 hood. Per picture hood/saftey latch is not there! but interior picture shows the lock.
October 18th, 2012, 11:28 AM
#37
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 573
