joestrollo

I am new to this forum: I signed on, for the first time, this morning. I am interested in purchasing a 1970 442 convertible. I have a few questions

1) I found a VIN decoder on the internet. The VIN is 344670M337354 and from what I can see, this is a 1970 Twilight Blue 442 convertible (white top) built in Lansing, MI., serial number 337354, correct?
2 I found the cowl plate but I could not find a decoder. The information on the plate reads as follows:
ST70 34467LAN435896 BDY
TR 977 28 A PNT
04E
Can someone tell me what to what these codes translate? Is there a cowl plate decoder online?
3) I'm told the car is numbers matching and all original. How can I prove that? There is a protect-o-plate but not sure if there is a build sheet.
4) Would you prefer buying a car from an agency or a private owner? I can make cases for and against both.

Thanks, in advance, for your help.

scottv442

http://datatagdecoder.com/tag/69-72

joestrollo

Your link was exactly what I was looking for. Many thanks. One thing, and I went back and verified the trim code on the cowl tag, TR 977 is not listed on the dropdown. The pictures of the car show it with white, bucket seats. Am I missing something?

joe_padavano

Yeah. Stop believing that everything on the interwebs is true or correct.

These decoders are not factory authorized or validated. This one is apparently just wrong. 977 is the trim code for ivory bucket seat interior in both the 442 convertible and Supreme convertible for the 1970 model year. That comes directly from the trim codes chart in the factory parts book.

This is why I always say buy paper originals of factory literature and don't rely on stuff on the web for free.

jaunty75

There will be a derivative of the car's VIN stamped on both the engine and the transmission. I don't know exactly what the derivative shows (others will), but I believe it ends with the last six digits of the VIN, which are the numbers that "match."

This is irrelevant, in my book. These cars don't grown on trees these days. You do your due diligence in checking out the car, as you appear to be doing here, you decide if you want the car after doing so, you make an offer, and if you come to an agreement with the seller, you buy the car. I wouldn't turn down an otherwise perfectly good car that meets all my expectations simply because it was being sold by a private seller or because it was being sold by a dealer. That's shooting yourself in the foot.

I know this probably puts me in a distinct minority amongst the members of this site, but in my time I have purchased five old Oldsmobiles. Four were from private sellers and the fifth (the first one I ever bought, actually) from a small, used-car lot in a nearby town. I've had great fun with all five and still own two today.

rcorrigan5

Joe is right. Having the real thing in front of you is so much better than using an on-line decoder or relying on other on-line info. Don't get me wrong - the on-line sites are honest efforts to be informational and correct but sometimes they are just wrong. Here is what I was able to decode from your info out of my books.

VIN:

344670M337354 - 3=GM division=Oldsmobile, 44=model series=442, 67=body style=convertible, 0=model year=1970, 337354=plant sequential number.

TRIM TAG:

ST 70=style/model year=1970, 34467=the same as the front end of the VIN, LAN=assembly plant=Lansing MI, 435896 BDY=Fisher body number, which has absolutely no relationship to the last 6 numbers of your VIN.
TR 977=interior color and front seat type=ivory in color with bucket seats, 28 A PNT=lower body color (28)=twilight blue, and upper body color or, in the case of a convertible or vinyl top, its color (A)= white.
04E=time build code=April (04), fifth week of that month (E), 1970.

By "numbers matching", for the most part it means that the engine and transmission are original to the car. There is a VIN derivative (specifically, the VIN derivative for this car would be 30M337354) stamped into the engine block and the transmission casing. For the engine block, it is stamped onto a raised pad on the block just below the #1 spark plug. If the car has power steering, that pad will be hard to see as the bracket for this option goes right over the top of the pad. As well, if the engine has a grime build-up on it, the stamped pad will be doubly hard to read. It can be done if the pad gets cleaned off and with the use of a mirror and a flashlight. For the transmission, it depends on if the car is an automatic or manual shift. For both, the VIN derivative is stamped onto the driver side of the transmission casing, horizontally for the THM 400 and vertically for the Muncie's. It's best to have the car on a lift to see the transmission stamping.

"Numbers matching" can mean a lot of other things as well. Generally, it goes along with everything that is attached to the engine or functions from it, like the water pump, the alternator, the A/C compressor, the carburetor, the coil, the distributor, the starter, and so on. You can even take it to date codes on certain components like gauges, the steering column, the side mirrors, wheels, the jack, and on and on. It just all depends on how detailed you want to be.

I drove myself practically nuts restoring my '68 to nearly all of those entities, to the point that I'm almost afraid to drive it. It was so much nicer restoring my '69 as I didn't pay attention so much to those "other things" I mentioned above. In my opinion, my '69 looks just as good as the '68, plus I do enjoy driving the '69!

Like jaunty75 said, whether buying from a dealer or private seller, due diligence is your best agent.

Randy C.

joe_padavano

The VIN derivative is a nine character subset of the 13 character VIN of the car. The first character if the VIN derivative will match the first character of the VIN. The last eight characters of the VIN derivative will match the last eight of the VIN. Most sellers have no idea what "numbers matching" means and throw that term around without proof. I always ask to see photos of the numbers that "match". Simply having correct casting number is NOT a "numbers matching" car.

jaunty75

And here I always thought it meant that the number of doors matches the number of wheels on four-door cars or the number of windshield wipers on two-door cars!

scottv442

your not missing anything. the data tag decoder is. sorry
chart below:

joe_padavano

No, it really can't. Either the numbers match or they do not. A casting number or date code may be correct, but it doesn't "match" anything. The fundamental difference is that there is only ONE "numbers matching" block and trans case for a particular car - the ones it was born with. There are hundreds if not thousands of "correct" parts with the right casting number and a date code in the acceptable range. Real numbers matching parts are proven to be original to the car (restamps aside...). Correct parts may or may not be original but cannot be proven either way.

joestrollo

You guyz have been a big help. Thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions.

twilightblue28A

Joe,

Paint code 28 is twilightblue (please see my username)
A is a white top.

If you lose interest, please let me know. I have been trying to buy a 1970 442 convertible. So if you decide to pass, contact me please!! I'll make it worth your while. I hope I am helpful. Thanks, harry

vette442

See the diagrams from my website for where to find the VIN numbers on the engine and trans. (Scroll down on the page)

http://highoctaneauto.com/newpage66.htm

Terry

joestrollo

Sorry, I dropped off for a bit. Anyway, I put a bid on the 442 and didn't get it. Someone from California was the lucky owner. I continued to look and last week I found a 1971 442 in Daytona Beach, FL. I have a hold on it, an inspector is going to look at the car on Tuesday. Can anyone tell me where I can find an options list for the car? Is such an animal available? The VIN is 344671M153470 and the cowl plate numbers are STY 71 34467 LAN 305675, TR 970 and ?B PNT. The owner tells me he can't make out the paint code. It looks like 75, 73 or 13, yet the car is Matador Red (code 75). He couldn't read the manufacture date code. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks and Happy New Year.

droldsmorland

Load a clear high rez large format pic of the cowl tag here.

You're out of luck on option breakdowns. Only semi-educated guesswork. No records exist.

A 71 442 vert in good shape is a good find. Is it stick or automatic? Its not a W30, correct??? If so it needs documentation to command W30 dollars.

Production numbers are low for a 71 442 vert, 1304 total non W30s. Even lower yet for a W30 vert.(110 total of those)

So for 1971 Olds punched out 1304 regular 442 verts as follows:
3 speed 442 verts ...25 total
4 speed 442 verts...183 total
Automatic 442 verts...1096

Pay particular attention to the floors, frame and trunk pan areas. Then look at the metal dash where the windshield meets the cowl. If the metals clean and the frame is straight and mint you are in good shape.

In order for this car to command premium 71 442 vert dollars, it should be rust free with a numbers matching drivetrain. If ALL of the parts are matching, eg alternator, distributor, starter etc...even better, but less likely. Even though 344 in the vin proves 442 status having the POP and any other paperwork is a plus as well.

joestrollo

Thanks for the stats and suggestions. The 442 is NOT a W-30 and has an automatic transmission with a dual gate shifter. The owner said the trans, engine and VIN are all matching. We shall see when I get the report on Tuesday.

shockrebuild

Curious on how the inspection went for you Joe

joestrollo

I'm still waiting for the final report. I spoke with the inspector, at a high level, he’s on his way back to his house to do a more detailed study of the photos and prepare a report. The car is solid and is numbers matching. He thinks it was in an accident at some point during it’s life, right front. The paint is not in the best condition but no rust. He think’s matador red is not the original paint. Frankly, that doesn’t scare me because I would have the car repainted in the correct color. The radio & 8 track player worked, as did the a/c, power windows and locks. The clock does not work. He said the buttons for the power windows and locks were a bit sticky but not a real problem. The car drove well, had good pickup, shifted well. Top and boot are in good condition. Interior is tired but like he said, it’s a 46 year old car. I’ll wait for his more detailed report later this evening.

Olds442redberet

I can't wait to see the car. Good luck with the deal.

joestrollo

It wasn't meant to be. It appears the car, at some time during it's life, was in an accident; both the right and left front fenders were heavily shimmed and the frame appears to be bent on the left side. I decided't not to do the deal. I just didn't feel comfortable with it. I'll just have to keep looking.

droptopron

That's prob for the best. If it bothers you now, it will bother you every time you see the car