TheRuss

Hi Olds buddies!

I'm running across a problem with my 72 Cutlass S (350/TH350) not starting for me. I'm hoping maybe you guys can point me in the right direction so I can get this thing rolling (I saw a 56ish Buick today and got all jealous!).

I've had it in storage for a few months, but have run it about once a month for at least a few minutes (back when it actually started). For the past few weeks, I have not been able to get it going at all. Here's what's happening:

- When I turn the key, all I get is a loud click (probably from the starter or solenoid). If I try it 800 times in row over and over, I can get the car to start trying to turn over once or twice. So it's not impossible...

- When I had the car in storage, I did have to boost it once or twice (which might have made something mad).

- I figured it was the battery, so I trickle charged it with my battery tender (new). Tried to turn her over, no dice. Figured the battery might be bad. I took it to Advance Auto and it had it tested. They say it's good.

- Okay....moving on. Since not the battery, I figured it was a bad starter. I took the starter out and had it tested at Advance Auto. They say it's good too. (Not happy. Getting that thing out was killer on the sausage hands).

-Today I reinstalled the starter after cleaning it up a little, as well as the wires and contacts that attach to the starter (S, Big Red lead, R?). It still clicks when I try and start it (which I guess means I put it back right).

-------------------------------

From what I've been reading on previous posts, it looks like the next thing to try is to test/replace the battery cables (Black/ground wire to block/radiator support; red wire to starter). Before I do that, I have a few questions:

1) Is there a way to test whether or not this is the problem with a multimeter before I do any replacing? If so, how? (I'm new to troubleshooting electrics, but really wanna learn).

2) Is it possible that the tests at Advance are bogus, and the starter/solenoid could still be the problem? Same with the battery?

3) If I do end up replacing the negative and positive cables, what is the best way to get at them? I noticed there was an accessory bracket blocking the bolt where the negative meets the block. What do I need to take off to get to this? I assume the red goes directly to the starter....

4) Is there anything else I should check out? Is it something dumb I'm not thinking of it? Hit me with it.

I do have a factory service manual...I just seem to be slow when it comes to looking at wiring diagrams.

Thanks Olds friends! I'm sure you will be as helpful as always.

(Sorry for the essay)

-Russ

Eric Anderson

First thing I would do is try a battery you know is good, (as I'm sure you know the battery cable is clean and tight as you just had the starter off), then start the trouble shooting after that. I've had a couple batterys test good when they weren't. The most recent was our Trailblazer the thing was about two years old and the green eye was still green on the battery took it to the dealer told them the battery was bad, service manager dissagreed they took it in to check it out, after two hours of the guy going over the car the service manager came out to tell me it was done, I asked him what the problem was " Uh yeah it was the battery"

joe_padavano

Clean all the connections in all the wires. Verify that the battery cables are not internally corroded (or just replace them anyway). Frankly, with the starter out I would have installed a new solenoid and brushes. What is likely happening is that a combination of small resistances at every contact point is building up to cause a hard start problem.

stellar

typical bad starter symptoms. Most likely just worn out. How old is it? Sounds like worn out solenoid contacts. If they are worn then the rest of the starter is in similar condition. Rebuild or replace or at least do as Joe suggests with solenoid and brushes. Chances are bushings are worn also and commutator is out of round. Very good advance test is bogus. Nothing beats a good visual test when the starter is out and apart.

citcapp

Make sure the ground strap bonding the engine to the body is still in good shape often overlooked and they do build up corrosion over time

TheRuss

Thanks a lot for the replies, guys! I think I'm starting to understand the possible issues involved. Yous guys are a great resource.

I'm going to go ahead and see if I can wrangle up a 'known good' battery and a junkyard (or reman-ed) starter for testing purposes. I've never taken apart a starter, so it may be a good opportunity to get a look inside on the cheap...The one in the car was in it when I got it in the Spring of 2006 (so at least 3 years). I suspect it's been in there since late 90s when I believe the car was at least partially restored. It's a Delco, but based on the stickers (Precision?) on the starter, I gotta believe it's a reman. I imagine wires were also changed at that time...but again, I'm just guessing.

It's hard for me to tell if the cables are corroded as I'm not exactly sure what to look for. The cables look okay, but who knows what's under the insulation. I already bought new ones, so I might as well give 'er a shot right? Then I've done it before...

CitCapp, you mentioned the ground strap bonding the engine to the body...where would I find this? What would I be looking for?

Thanks again guys. I'll update you when I get this beast running (and send some sad before and happy after pictures ).

-Russ

PS - I'm pretty sure I got power steering fluid in my ear when I was under the car last...Is it terminal?

citcapp

The ground strap is usually at the back of the engine and bonds to the fire wall from a bolt on the back of one of the heads or from the intake manifold. Could be either

Jamesbo

No, I believe the terminal is on the battery.



I bought a brand new battery last week and put it in and found out that it was bad. I jumped off my car to take it back and when I got there and turned off the engine. 'Eveybody was at lunch."

So, I said I just got out by tools and put a new one in.

I have always bought rebuilt starters, They are very easy to find and don't cost much.

stellar

no such thing as a "known good" junkyard starter. Buy a rebuilt one they are cheap. Or I can send you one. Which do you want rebuilt or junkyard I have both.

Danny Wiseley

Be glad it was p.s. fluid instead of gasoline!

-DW

TheRuss

Hey guys,

Thanks again for the advice.

Quick update. I figured I would give a remaned starter a try for funsies. I connected it all up and gave it another shot. (It gets a lot easier the more you do it). No click or anything when I turn the key. Accessories are on (and again, battery tested good at Advanced Auto).

I got a much better look at the positive battery cable on the starter end this time which looked icky, the wire was slightly exposed at the end, and the insulation looked burned in a couple places near the exhaust (the car has 'aftermarket' dual exhaust). The cable also seems pretty brittle. I'm definitely leaning toward that being my issue. Oh, and I may have pulled on it (further damaging it) to get the new starter in (hence the no click now).

I bought a new set of positive and negative cables, but I do have one question about the positive. The way the car is currently wired, the positive goes from the battery to the starter. Then at the starter end of the wire, there is another smaller red wire that goes up to the junction block. The new positive cable's starter end does not have this wire (It's made by Autocraft), and the end does not look friendly for splicing it on. Do you guys have any suggestions? Can I buy a different cable that allows for this? Or do I need to splice the wire on? Or does this smaller wire not belong at all?

I apologize if I'm asking newb questions...but as I said, this is the first time I've had to do this, and I'm trying to learn . And I'm trying to make more car friends....

Thanks again...I'll be sure to keep you updated if I make some progress, as well as share pics of me driving around town

Russ

TheRuss

Oh, and Stellar-- I was saying a known good battery...Thanks so much for the offer to send me a starter. I just picked one up at the parts store for now. I appreciate it though.

Eric Anderson

Yes get a pos. cable with the second wire, they are useually on the battery terminal side of the cable. They will normally have a crimp connector that you will splice the old wire into. The ground cable also has a pigtail that grounds to the core support.

TheRuss

Hi Eric,

Quick response! The wire I bought does have a crimp connector on the battery side. I was wondering what that was for. Should I just buy a length of similar smaller wire and crimp it in to that? Would I just route that long smaller wire along with the bigger positive cable (down to the starter, then up to the junction block)? Just looking for best practices on routing....

Thanks again,

Russ

Eric Anderson

Cut the wire that goes from your current cable to the junction block then when you install the new cable crimp that wire to your new one, unless it looks nasty then you would want to replace it. You don't need it to go all the way down to the starter just right over to the junction block.

TheRuss

Cool. Thanks! I'll give this a shot tomorrow and see if the bad boy starts up.

-Russ

Eric Anderson

If you have a good battery, new cables and new starter you should be all set, good luck with it.

stellar

Are you sure there is a wire connected to the actual positive cable at the starter or is it a separate wire with an eyelet on the solenoid post with the pos cable?

stellar

with the old starter you got a click and with the new starter you get nothing? sounds like you forgot to put one of the wires back on.

TheRuss

Hey Stellar,

That's what I thought. Well, I thought maybe I reversed the two little wires. So, I pull the starter, switched 'em, and tried again. Same result. I think the first way was correct, as there was an S indicator on one of the wires, and the first time it matched the S on the starter.

I think I what I ended up doing was damaging the positive battery cable the rest of the way by pulling on it while I was trying to manhandle the starter back onto the engine. Either that or the starter I got from Autozone came to me bad. I guess I could put the old starter back in one last time with the old cables to find out....but that cable is nasty, and I think it needs to be replaced. Unfortunately, I didn't have any one to help me out to turn the key, so I couldn't do any tests with a multimeter at the starter...

I'm going to try new cables with the old starter this afternoon (then with the new starter if necessary .I can probably still return it at this point if it ends up being the wire's fault).

We'll see how my splicing and crimping skills are. Does anyone have any recommendations for connectors between wire sections for the small wire that goes to the junction block? I usually use my old friend mr. electrical tape...but that's usually on the inside of the car.

Again, newb questions...but who knows...it could help other newbs down the line searching for answers.

Thanks again for the help, guys.

- Russ

TheRuss

Hey Olds buddies!

She lives!!! After installing new battery cables (and doing some not-yet-so-pretty routing) and the old battery and starter, I continued to get only the click. I decided to try a new battery just for the heck of it...same outcome.

Then I decided that maybe Stellar was right and one of the wires for the new starter wasn't tightened all the way the first time I tried it. I reinstalled the new (well, re-maned) starter, made sure that all connections were nice and tight, and SHABAM! Life! Starts better than ever!

So, new starter, new cables and old battery . Can't trust those Advance Auto Parts starter bench tests after all.

One question: I didn't use any of the shims that came with the starter because it started fine and I didn't hear any odd noises or grinding... Is there something else I should be looking for?

It's too dark for pictures today...but I'll take some tomorrow to share.

Thanks so much for the advice guys..I almost feel like I accomplished something hehe.

Russ

Yellowstatue

The shims are to get rid of the odd noises or grinding..now you have to go around and find something that is too tight and shim it!!

TheRuss

Yeah...I was kind of disappointed because I've never shimmed anything before. At the same time, I was happy because the starter is damn heavy, so I didn't have to mess with it.

I guess I'll go look for some pickle jars or short table legs to shim. hehe.

- Russ

TheRuss

To core or not to core?

The starter I took out may or may not be the original. Is there any way to tell? Also, is there any reason I shouldn't take it apart to see what's in there, and then put it back together and return it to Autozone for the $10-15 core pay day extravaganza? I didn't want to waste something that may be worth holding on to.

Thanks,

Russ

stellar

What are the numbers on it?

New'n72

Russ.....love the color!

TheRuss

Hey guys!

As promised, here's a couple pictures of me cruisin' around town. Thanks again for the help!

- Stellar, I'll get the numbers up here in a bit. I have the old starter in my trunk..finally brought it home.

- New 'n 72-- Your color also rules. What do we call it?

Russ

TheRuss

More pics....

TheRuss

And one more...

TheRuss

Hey Stellar,

I finally checked out the numbers on the starter. Worth rebuilding/keeping? The numbers on the front of the starter were 1998557 and 6K314. it also Delco Remy USA around the same ring.

Thanks,

Russ

PS - Thanks again! Can't wait to drive 'er to Carlisle this weekend.

New'n72

I think, in the original paperwork I have for this car that the color was called Forest Green.......the saddle tan interrior was called Indian Bronze.

I should find that again. Probably a good trivia question tidbit for these forums?

What's going on at Carsile? (Guess I missed that bit of information?)

TheRuss

Hey New,

Good to know on the colors. Now I don't have to describe as green, dark green.

Spring Carlisle is this weekend. I'm not sure about specific activities, but I do like to drive 'er there whenever I go.

-Russ

stellar

The number on that starter is for 1987 maybe 1986 cars. It is correct for many chevys including camaro and corvette as will as some GMC and Quite a few Pontiacs, BUT I think the housing on yours is incorrect for the 1987 models. I think your housing mounts with 2 long bolts directly across from each other mounted on the driver side of car and the correct housing for that number is 1 long and 1 short bolt directly across from each other fitting on 4.3 and 5.0 engines mounting on the passenger side. If you paid a core charge you might want to get your money back or rebuild it for a spare. Wish I could see you in Carlisle, but I have to work. If anyone is passing Pittsburgh Pa. feel free to stop in and say hello, or if you are having a start or charge problem, I'll fix ya up. I'll be working at stellar generator 1415 west liberty ave Pgh. Pa.

TheRuss

Hi Stellar,

Thanks for the info. So this was most likely a re-maned or rebuilt junk yard starter...not an original. I will probably just get the core charge back. "New" starter is still working great. I drove her into work again today.

Sucks about Carlisle...maybe you can get down here in the summer or the fall. I'm only coming from Hershey, so I won't be around Pittsburgh, but if I'm ever in that neck of the woods, I'll let you know.

Thanks again for all the help.

- Russ