Robertoho

My 68 Toronado runned smooth all the time - even with about 250'000 km (150'000 miles). It was about 3 years ago that it suddenly refused to start the engine when turning the key. It was a matter of waiting for some minutes and after a new try it startet as usual.

It was a single experience in that year, in the next year it happened about 3 times. (Let's say 3 out of 60 starts of the engine). And the idea growed that I'll have to do something somewhen.

I didn't use the car last year for several reasons and when I tried to start it a month ago it didn't do anything any more. So I jacked it up today and removed the starter having a new solendoid ready to go attached to it.

But now after having it open I see that the problem is some bigger than I imagined.

All 4 brushes are grinded completly down so that alread the holding screws are grinded half away...

The contact surface on the rotor of course looks appropriate.

I assume this starter is crap now?

Lady72nRob71

Ouch... I think the armature commutator is gone now.
We have places here inthe states that could easily rebuild your original starter but not sure about over in Switzerland. Check around though.
Being the car is a survivor, rebuilding the original unit might be the way you want to go.
Member 'stellar' here rebuilds these as a living and would be able to give you the best advice. PM him and tell him Rob sent you!

redoldsman

I would guess it probably is. I doubt rebuilt parts are as accessable in Switzerland as they are here in the US. You might try sanding the armature with some fine sandpaper (not emery cloth) and put a new set of brushes in. Be sure the armature is smooth so it doesn't eat the brushes up. Probably a long shot but there is not much money at risk in a set of brushes.

stellar

Thanks Rob. It looks like the armature is pretty well shot. It looks like it would work with just brushes, but it won't be anywhere near right. There is not enough copper left on the commutator bars for a good cut, but you may ask a machinist to take a light turn on it to at least get the ends of the new brushes to ride true. I can send you an armature and brushes if you want them. I would suspect it is time to replace the bushings too. If you do get someone to turn the commutator down on a lathe do not let them try to get it where it is all cleaned up because then there will not be enough copper left and the bars will be very thin. If you are only going to start it once in awhile you may get away with just sanding and new brushes.

stellar

Robert, I got your PM. I will get back to you when you let me know which armature (rotor) you need. Give me the starter number if you can. 1108386 349 333 348 330 ? Mark

Robertoho

Thanks Mark

Replied to the mail address you gave me.

stellar

Bob, Parts are boxed and ready to ship. Hi torque armature with new drive installed with clips, new brushes, bushings, leather washer and 2 extra fiber washers to get propper spacing, and grease. Do you still want this? Mark

stellar

Bob tracking shows a friday 12/30/11 delivery date. PM email or call 412-563-2100 with any questions. Mark

Robertoho

While waiting for the parts coming from stellar space I took some time to disassemble the rest of the starter - just for cleaning and recoating the painted parts.

When removing the stator coils I found this (see pics)!

The one wire passing behind one brushes pin - was fairly naked! The brushes spring cut that V-shape into isolation and passing current melted then isolation material.

Impressing that the starter still worked some time before. I assume there was just enough dirt and debris coating the wire...

stellar

It looks like you still have the copper there, so reinsulate it and all should be well. Be sure to tuck that wire behind the brush pin like I said in the instructions I sent. Usually the problem you show in the pics is if the wire is NOT tucked behind the pin. If it isn't behind the pin the armature (rotor to you) will rub through like the pic shows. This wire should not be touching the spring if it is in correct behind the pin. I suspect someone changed the brushes at one time and did not put the wire behind the pin. let us know how it all works out. The tracking # shows the parts arrived at your US address Friday. Let us know how it works out. Mark

Robertoho

Yes, I will tell you. Parts are on the way from my US address to me here in Switzerland.

In my opinion the wire WAS behind the pin. See that pic here. It was under the spring that press the brushes agains the comutator. Between the bracket that is attached to the housing and holds the pin on one side and that spring on the other side.

You can see that also in the one pic of my first post: https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...rushesdown.jpg

But is was seated very low and tight in that bracket so that it slided partially under the edge of that spring. Then the spring cutted the isolation over the time.

It was for sure not the armature doing this.

But yes, the copper is still there and looks okay. I will reinsulate it. I just wonder if that must be heat resistant in any manner. If I should try to remove the brush-connection tongue to be able to slide a shrink tube over it and reattach the tongue (is it soldered?). May be the tube should be shrinked when everything is together since it will become a bit hard.

Or if isolation tape would be okay?

stellar

Now I see what happened. The lead was behind the spring. That is not right. I will try to take some pics to show how it should be. It should be under the metal piece holding the brushes and behind the pin. The toung piece you mention is welded. A sleeve over the lead would be ok, or tape. Even larger heat shrink, just to insulate. Pics coming soon I hope.

stellar

pics. 1st from underside. It show proper position best.

Robertoho

Thanks! That makes it clear now. That also explains why that lead was so tight inside that bracket. It is what you call goofed I assume.

(And it seems that mine was not the only starter with brushes scrapped down to the iron )

If that tongue is weldet than it would not be a good idea to remove it - right?

I think tape will not be resistant enough because it will be warm there - and glue will loose it's strength. I will sleeve something over that is large enough.

stellar

Don't remove the tounge unless necessary. If you must remove it you can use a ring terminal if it is crimped and soldered. An old shoelace will make a good sleeve in a pinch.

Robertoho

After the stellar parts were arrived now I rebuilt that starter.

Could easy reinsulate the thick wire with a shrink sleeve and two layers tape under.

Thanks to Mark the stellar helper!

Or wanna more pics??

Robertoho

I reached the end of that project - the car runs again.

After reinstallation of the starter into the car I experienced a shocking surprise: the engine didn't do any move when turning the key !

Same as before ...

It took me some minutes to realize that I've left the gear selector in neutral position and there that gear-selector-switch does not make proper contact. After putting it in park position - it startet. And HELL how it starts now! No longer the tired and slow just-being-able-to-turn-the-engine-once-more. Big difference - it acts very powerful now!

The Toronado definitively looks more happy now!

Lady72nRob71

Congrats on a job well done! And kudos to Mark who set you up with all the right parts!!

stellar

Thats great. It looks good and works good. Ya can't ask for more. You did a good job, but you know it will have to be done again in about 40 years. Thanks for the compliments Rob and Rob. You guys are the ones doing all the work. I hate to admit this, but I scrapped about a dozen of the toronado starters by accident. I still have a few left. My helper was cleaning up for me. He didn't know.