No Power to fuse block. Want to try a jumper wire.
June 30th, 2011, 11:44 AM
#1
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No Power to fuse block. Want to try a jumper wire.
Hi,
I've seen the post from Gibbo69olds describing the same problem I have with my '70 Olds Cutlass. Here is his initial question:
"I have a 69 cutlass and the car is completely dead. I don't have headlights interior lights, horn, radio, nothing. Battery is got 12.73 volts. i have been poking through the wiring but nothing obvious has jumped out at me. all the fuses are good inside. What am i missing here? What does this horn relay do? Does it bring power to the fuse block?"
My lack of power was intermittent at first but now is permanent. I replaced the negative batrtery cable and made sure the engine was properly grounded to the body. I have full power at the horn relay and it is properly gounded to the body.
The previous owner must have done some bastard wiring. I have only two wires to the starter. The positive battery cable and a 12 ga. wire that goes from the solenoid to the ignition switch. The starter is an aftermarket gear reduction type with two posts. Usually the big post on the starter has two wires. One which is the postitive battery cable and the other is a fusable link that powers the fuse block. The third wire is ignition switch wire that goes to the solenoid. The guy who owned this car before must have re-wired some things because I only have the postitive battery cable and the ignition wire going to the starter. No fusable link wire. So I'm thinking the fusable liink is my problem and I'm guessing he ran the fusable link from the horn relay to the fuse block. My problem is I can't figure out how to remove the fuse block to work on it. The car has a power brake booster on the firewall so it is hard to get to the back of the block from under the hood. I've removed the two screws from the fuse block inside the car but can't pull it out far enough to see behind it. I want to try a jumper wire from the horn relay to the fuse block but can't figure out how to see where battery power would connect to the fuse block. The wiring diagram I have is useless in this case. Can anyone help please???
I've seen the post from Gibbo69olds describing the same problem I have with my '70 Olds Cutlass. Here is his initial question:
"I have a 69 cutlass and the car is completely dead. I don't have headlights interior lights, horn, radio, nothing. Battery is got 12.73 volts. i have been poking through the wiring but nothing obvious has jumped out at me. all the fuses are good inside. What am i missing here? What does this horn relay do? Does it bring power to the fuse block?"
My lack of power was intermittent at first but now is permanent. I replaced the negative batrtery cable and made sure the engine was properly grounded to the body. I have full power at the horn relay and it is properly gounded to the body.
The previous owner must have done some bastard wiring. I have only two wires to the starter. The positive battery cable and a 12 ga. wire that goes from the solenoid to the ignition switch. The starter is an aftermarket gear reduction type with two posts. Usually the big post on the starter has two wires. One which is the postitive battery cable and the other is a fusable link that powers the fuse block. The third wire is ignition switch wire that goes to the solenoid. The guy who owned this car before must have re-wired some things because I only have the postitive battery cable and the ignition wire going to the starter. No fusable link wire. So I'm thinking the fusable liink is my problem and I'm guessing he ran the fusable link from the horn relay to the fuse block. My problem is I can't figure out how to remove the fuse block to work on it. The car has a power brake booster on the firewall so it is hard to get to the back of the block from under the hood. I've removed the two screws from the fuse block inside the car but can't pull it out far enough to see behind it. I want to try a jumper wire from the horn relay to the fuse block but can't figure out how to see where battery power would connect to the fuse block. The wiring diagram I have is useless in this case. Can anyone help please???
July 1st, 2011, 03:49 AM
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The little metal can on the horn relay 'is' the horn relay with the two plugs on it...the metal bar with the two screws holding the wires from the alt. and the battery is the buss bar (part of the horn relay)...the fusible link goes from the battery to the buss bar, thus feeding towards the fuse block with a 10 guage wire...Olds only has one fat wire on the solenoid, with the other two smaller wires on the other two terminals, unlike some early Chebbies... You might have a butt connector somewheres in there that has come apart...check for power at the buss bar then check at the fuse box...feeds directly to the clock, tail lights and stop fuses...there will be a splice behind the fuse block that feeds the ign switch, head light switch and the afore mentioned fuses...
July 1st, 2011, 06:47 AM
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Thank you for taking time to respond. I have checked for power at the buss bar and it is OK but I get no reading at the fuse block. It sounds like you have removed the fuse block to see the "splice" behind the fuse block and that is where I am having a problem. I can't get to the back of the fuse block. Once I have it loose from the firewall inside the car, can it be unplugged as a unit leaving the "mating" block still on the firewall? How do you get it out to work on the wiring? By the way, do you know what gauge the fusable link is supposed to be (between the battery and the buss bar)?
July 1st, 2011, 07:12 AM
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I'm working on a 69 and I think most of the basic electrical stuff will be very similar or the same. So let me offer you what I can.
As pointed out by Yellowstatue, your car should only have the battery cable going to the large post on the starter solenoid. 69 has a purple wire going to the S terminal and then a yellow wire to R. R is the resistance wire that runs up to the coil and it drops to voltage down to about 6-8 volts I believe. If someone installed an HEI distributor in your car, the wire from R could be eliminated as the HEI needs a 12V source. They likely picked that up somehwere else.
On 69, the fuseable link comes off of the horn relay and is part of the engine harness. This engine harness aside from connecting to varios things on the engine, connects to the outer half of that bulkhead connector on the firewall and it has a 10 or 12 ga red wire. I believe this is the source for the 12V going inside the car for many systems. This firewall connector is hard to reach with the fender well in place. There is also bolt with a 3/8 head that holds the outer connector to the inner part. So just removing the screws from inside the car, as you did, will not allow you to separate this connector. If you look carefully at the inside connector, you should find 2 plastic posts that hold the fuse portion away from the part that sits on the firewall. You can carefully bend the ends of these posts and it will allow you to separate the 2 interior pieces a little more and maybe enough for you to do some testing.
If necessary, try to see if there is power in the red wire going to that plug on the engine side. Then check on the interior side. If yes on the outside and no on the inside, then it's possible you could have a dirty contact in this bulkhead connector. You would need to remove the plugs on the firewall side to clean them up. And this will likely involve removing the wheelhouse to gain access to the plug. GM did have a dark brown dielectric grease inside that connector to protect the terminals so if you open it up don't freak if you see this stuff as it's supposed to be there. It's also a sticky mess.
You could also check to see if you have any power to any of the terminals for the fuses. Some should be hot all the time. You'll need to use a test light or a volt meter to diagnosis this problem so pick one or the other up if you don't have one. Little test lights are very inexpensive and they have a pointed probe to allow you to push through wire insulation into the conductor to test a wire if you can't get to a connector on the end. See what you have and go from there.
As pointed out by Yellowstatue, your car should only have the battery cable going to the large post on the starter solenoid. 69 has a purple wire going to the S terminal and then a yellow wire to R. R is the resistance wire that runs up to the coil and it drops to voltage down to about 6-8 volts I believe. If someone installed an HEI distributor in your car, the wire from R could be eliminated as the HEI needs a 12V source. They likely picked that up somehwere else.
On 69, the fuseable link comes off of the horn relay and is part of the engine harness. This engine harness aside from connecting to varios things on the engine, connects to the outer half of that bulkhead connector on the firewall and it has a 10 or 12 ga red wire. I believe this is the source for the 12V going inside the car for many systems. This firewall connector is hard to reach with the fender well in place. There is also bolt with a 3/8 head that holds the outer connector to the inner part. So just removing the screws from inside the car, as you did, will not allow you to separate this connector. If you look carefully at the inside connector, you should find 2 plastic posts that hold the fuse portion away from the part that sits on the firewall. You can carefully bend the ends of these posts and it will allow you to separate the 2 interior pieces a little more and maybe enough for you to do some testing.
If necessary, try to see if there is power in the red wire going to that plug on the engine side. Then check on the interior side. If yes on the outside and no on the inside, then it's possible you could have a dirty contact in this bulkhead connector. You would need to remove the plugs on the firewall side to clean them up. And this will likely involve removing the wheelhouse to gain access to the plug. GM did have a dark brown dielectric grease inside that connector to protect the terminals so if you open it up don't freak if you see this stuff as it's supposed to be there. It's also a sticky mess.
You could also check to see if you have any power to any of the terminals for the fuses. Some should be hot all the time. You'll need to use a test light or a volt meter to diagnosis this problem so pick one or the other up if you don't have one. Little test lights are very inexpensive and they have a pointed probe to allow you to push through wire insulation into the conductor to test a wire if you can't get to a connector on the end. See what you have and go from there.
July 1st, 2011, 08:47 AM
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Very helpful. Thank you. I've taken the electrical tape off the harness and located the fusable link. I want to repace it just to be sure but don't know what gauge it is. Any ideas? I do see the bolt head on the engine side of the firewall where the plugs go into the back of the fuse block. From your description, I'd rather not take it apart. I can see two heavy gauge wires plugged into the back of the fuse block from inside the car. I'll put in a new fusable link and see if it gets power.
The previous owner has many wires going from the post on the horn relay. One comes from the alternator; one is the fusable link and one goes to the MSD Ignition box. My fusable link goes between the horn relay and the fuse box. It is not between the battery and the horn relay. Not sure if that matters. There is one additional wire that I cannnot trace though the firewall but it also appears to be 10 gauge. I did a continuity test with a meter on the fusable link wire from the horn relay to the fuse block inside the car and it tested OK but there is no voltage at the fuse block so you can understand my frustration. Thank you again for helping me out. I really appreciate it. I'll do some more testing and fiddling and report back to you.
The previous owner has many wires going from the post on the horn relay. One comes from the alternator; one is the fusable link and one goes to the MSD Ignition box. My fusable link goes between the horn relay and the fuse box. It is not between the battery and the horn relay. Not sure if that matters. There is one additional wire that I cannnot trace though the firewall but it also appears to be 10 gauge. I did a continuity test with a meter on the fusable link wire from the horn relay to the fuse block inside the car and it tested OK but there is no voltage at the fuse block so you can understand my frustration. Thank you again for helping me out. I really appreciate it. I'll do some more testing and fiddling and report back to you.
July 1st, 2011, 09:24 AM
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No. I only have two wires to the starter and soloniod. The main positive battery cable and a smaller wire that comes from the ignition switch. It is attached to the soloniod. If I short the two together, the starter will engage.
July 1st, 2011, 10:12 AM
#8
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I can't contribute anything about the exact routing of any wires, but if you want to jump into the hot bus of the fuse panel, why not just take a decent sized wire, solder a female 1/4" spade terminal on the end, plug that into the "BATT" terminal on the fuse box, and connect the other end to the positive battery terminal?
As far as what goes where, here is a zoom from a scan of your schematic in the area where the battery connects to the starter and the horn relay:
And here is a larger chunk of that same schematic, so that you can follow the red wires to the fuse box, the ignition switch, and the headlight switch:
- Eric
As far as what goes where, here is a zoom from a scan of your schematic in the area where the battery connects to the starter and the horn relay:
And here is a larger chunk of that same schematic, so that you can follow the red wires to the fuse box, the ignition switch, and the headlight switch:
- Eric
July 1st, 2011, 12:39 PM
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Thanks again everyone. Eric - The pictures didn't come through very clearly. I can't identify the picture in between the starter motor and the alternator. If a "battery" wire goes from the horn relay to the light switch like you say, wouldn't they work independantly of the fuse block? I have no headlights, taillights, radio, interior lights or power at the fuse block. Nothing works. Does the battery wire go to the headlight switch after going through the fuse block? Do you happen to have a picture of the fuse block showing all the fuse designations? Mine are hard to read.
July 1st, 2011, 01:04 PM
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OK. I just found a blown up picture of the wiring diagram and the symbol I couldn't make out was the regulator. I have electronic ignition and an alternator. It looks like the hot wire from the horn relay goes to the ignition switch, headlight switch and fuse block. This is in addition to the generator and regulator in the picture. I'm only focusing on the last red lead from the horn relay and it appears to split in three directions (ign. switch, headlight switch and fuse block). Wouldn't this allow my headlights to work even if I didn't have any power to the fuse block? If this is true, my problem has to be before the fuse block which makes me think it's at the horn relay. Is my logic correct?
July 1st, 2011, 01:22 PM
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Sorry about the quality - that's what happens when you use an internet picture and then have to reduce it to fit within the posting standards.
In answer to your question: Yes.
The big red wire goes through the fuse block connector (shown in two pieces as two vertical boxes on the diagram), and THEN splits into three red wires: one to the headlight switch, one to the ignition switch, and one to the fuse block.
If you have no power to ANY of these things, then the interruption is in the red wire or its connections before the split (could be in the rat's nest of wires in and around the fuse block, could be elsewhere). If you've got good power in the red wire all the way from the horn relay to the fuse block, then the problem must be in the fuse block connector, or in the wire on the other side of the firewall. Use a pushpin to check the voltage as the wire goes into the connector (push it through the insulation till you hit copper, then attach your meter to the pin). If you've got nothing, then the problem is before that, on the engine side. If you've got good voltage, then the problem is past that, and you'll probably have to pull the firewall connector. If I recall it's a single 3/8" head screw right in the center, on the engine side - remove it, then pull the two engine-side halves of the plug off with decisiveness. Once it's off, you have access to the plug terminals for testing, and if necessary, you can mobilize the fuse block and its associated harness (no, you really don't want to do that if you can avoid it).
Good luck.
- Eric
In answer to your question: Yes.
The big red wire goes through the fuse block connector (shown in two pieces as two vertical boxes on the diagram), and THEN splits into three red wires: one to the headlight switch, one to the ignition switch, and one to the fuse block.
If you have no power to ANY of these things, then the interruption is in the red wire or its connections before the split (could be in the rat's nest of wires in and around the fuse block, could be elsewhere). If you've got good power in the red wire all the way from the horn relay to the fuse block, then the problem must be in the fuse block connector, or in the wire on the other side of the firewall. Use a pushpin to check the voltage as the wire goes into the connector (push it through the insulation till you hit copper, then attach your meter to the pin). If you've got nothing, then the problem is before that, on the engine side. If you've got good voltage, then the problem is past that, and you'll probably have to pull the firewall connector. If I recall it's a single 3/8" head screw right in the center, on the engine side - remove it, then pull the two engine-side halves of the plug off with decisiveness. Once it's off, you have access to the plug terminals for testing, and if necessary, you can mobilize the fuse block and its associated harness (no, you really don't want to do that if you can avoid it).
Good luck.
- Eric
July 1st, 2011, 04:56 PM
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Hooray!!!
After reading what you said, the light went on (in my head). I had voltage at the horn relay but not at the fuse block or anywhere else. I could see the connections in the horn relay were corroded somewhat so $69.00 later I had a new Delco horn relay. I hooked everything up and (Yippy) everything works. I really hate tracking down electrical problems especially when it is 95 degrees and humid. The beer was good though. Thank you for uncovering the issue.
After reading what you said, the light went on (in my head). I had voltage at the horn relay but not at the fuse block or anywhere else. I could see the connections in the horn relay were corroded somewhat so $69.00 later I had a new Delco horn relay. I hooked everything up and (Yippy) everything works. I really hate tracking down electrical problems especially when it is 95 degrees and humid. The beer was good though. Thank you for uncovering the issue.
July 1st, 2011, 05:34 PM
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A battery-powered Dremel MotoTool with tiny wire brush attachments is an indispensable thing to have in cases like this - you can get in there and, in seconds, polish all of those connectors to a shine.
- Eric
- Eric
July 2nd, 2011, 06:29 AM
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95* and humid sounds pretty nice when all we get is 102* and humid.
Yep - excellect tool to have, esp. a cordless one. I use mine a lot!
July 2nd, 2011, 08:36 AM
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I have a Dremel tool as well but the horn relay looks so crudy all around including the tin can and I don't know what is inside yet so just cleaning up the male and female connectors didn't seem to be a good solution at the time. "My bad" - as they say. I believe the old relay is the original. I will open up the old one and see how everything works.
I borrowed a neighbor's miniture file set (for jewelers) and was able to get up inside the female connectors to polish the contacts. It was easier than trying to find the release tabs and pulling the connectors out of their casings. All is well. Life is good again. Thanks
I borrowed a neighbor's miniture file set (for jewelers) and was able to get up inside the female connectors to polish the contacts. It was easier than trying to find the release tabs and pulling the connectors out of their casings. All is well. Life is good again. Thanks
July 2nd, 2011, 08:55 AM
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Don't mention it.
If your horn was working (when everything else was working), then there's no need to open up that relay. All those wires are just connected to that stud as a junction point - it doesn't "go anywhere" (except to the horn, and, dare I say it? to the "door open" buzzer).
If the terminals and the stud are clean, then that's all you need. You could replace it with a bolt that's insulated from ground, and it would do the same thing.
- Eric
If your horn was working (when everything else was working), then there's no need to open up that relay. All those wires are just connected to that stud as a junction point - it doesn't "go anywhere" (except to the horn, and, dare I say it? to the "door open" buzzer).
If the terminals and the stud are clean, then that's all you need. You could replace it with a bolt that's insulated from ground, and it would do the same thing.
- Eric
July 2nd, 2011, 11:13 AM
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Yeah, I know. What I didn't realize is that the three skinny wires that plug into the underside must have something to do with the two terminal bolts working as a hot junction and a ground. They were rusty and corroded and when I put the new relay in place and shined up the female sides, everything worked again. Where do the three wires go to anyway. Are they what leads up to the horn button on the steering wheel? If so, what do they have to do with the two isolated bolts on the relay that form the junction point and ground?
July 2nd, 2011, 11:24 AM
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One wire goes to the horn button,
one wire goes to the horn, and
one wire (pink) goes to the key warning switch in the steering column.
They have absolutely no connection to the junction point terminal (other than that that's where the horn relay gets it power from).
- Eric
one wire goes to the horn, and
one wire (pink) goes to the key warning switch in the steering column.
They have absolutely no connection to the junction point terminal (other than that that's where the horn relay gets it power from).
- Eric
Last edited by MDchanic; July 2nd, 2011 at 11:26 AM.
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