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I had my engine rebuilt in Dec. I got a new battery about a month ago. I've been driving it a lot with absolutely no starting issues. It fires right up!
I haven't driven it in 2 days. Sitting for a couple of days was never a problem until Today. I hop in to go to work. I turn the key and nothing. No click, no turn, nada. The lights still work and they're bright! I can even raise the convertible top if I wanted to waste precious juice. So I don't think it's the battery.
Since I had to get to work, I didn't get a chance to troubleshoot. I can tighten posts and things like that when I get back, but something tells me it's a little bit more complex than that.
How about a little troubleshooting? Did you check the neutral safety switch? Pull off the connector with the two purple wires, jumper across those wires in the connector, and see if the car cranks.
That was my first inclination when it wouldn't start, b/c that's the kind of result you get when your car isn't in park. I shifted through the gears hoping I wasn't in settled in P, but it still didn't turn.
That's why I think this issue is a bit more complex for an amateur like me. I have the Service Manual at home, but I don't even know how to access the switch or where it's that for that matter. I'll take a look in the book when I get home.
Oh that we can provide guidance on
try staring it in N, then in all other positions.
Floor shift, one presumes, being a sporty convertible, but perhaps not.
It matters to the location of the NSS.
1968.... say, isn't there a connector on the LH inner fender liner, fat violet and smaller uhm maybe yellow? wire, to the starter? You can ck for voltage at that violet wire when the key is in the START position. Test light or buzzer is handy for 1-man operation. If you do NOT get voltage here when the driver asks for start, then the ign switch or NSS are suspect.
You might get a peek at the back of the ign switch with a light and see if anything is obvious like melted plastic or burned wires- typically the fat red and/or violet ones.
You can get a wire with a clip on 1 end, clip to battery +, apply other end of your hot wire on that violet wire that goes down to the starter. If THAT does not make the starter turn, it's probably time to extract the starter and see what's up. If the starter brace [slash supprt slash ground strap] was not installed, then you might just have a bad starter ground path. With a voltmeter, this should be easy to detect. If you get volts all the way to the starter but it still does not work, then your possibilites are defective solenoid/ starter or no return ground path.
Ground cable from battery goes right to the engine, clean, tight, and with a star washer between cable terminal and block in order to ensure a good cneection, right?
Old cables can be bad under the insulation and appear fine at first glance also.
1968.... say, isn't there a connector on the LH inner fender liner, fat violet and smaller uhm maybe yellow? wire, to the starter?
I don't think so, at least not on a 68. The CSM wiring diagram doesn't show any connector downstream from the firewall connector. My 62 does have the connector you describe, and it makes it very easy to bump the motor over, but I don't think it exists on a 68.
In any case, there WILL be a two wire connector above the base of the steering column with two purple wires. For a column shift car, this plugs into the NSS on the column. For a factory floor shift AT, it plugs into the console harness. For an MT car, it should have a jumper in it (68s don't use a clutch safety switch).
How about we start with, Do the TEMP and GEN lights go on when you turn the key to RUN, and does the OIL light go on when you turn to START?
- Eric
Yeah everything lights up. I can even raise the top with no issues.
I do have a factory console w/ a TH350. I'm finally able to head home now. I'll start troubleshooting.
My mechanic said check fuses.
A guy a work said rock it, Or Put it in N and roll it out. He said he had that issue in his fairlane. He did that and it fired up and it never game him issues again. It just wasn't settled in P.
I don't know. I'll send an update shortly. Thanks for all the input!
The TH350 didn't exist in 1968. If you really have a TH350, has the shifter been changed to a three speed shifter? Is this a factory floor shift car at all? These questions are important because a non-factory installation may or may not have the NSS installed and wired correctly. This is also why it is very important to supply ALL details when asking for help diagnosing a problem.
The TH350 didn't exist in 1968. If you really have a TH350, has the shifter been changed to a three speed shifter? Is this a factory floor shift car at all? These questions are important because a non-factory installation may or may not have the NSS installed and wired correctly. This is also why it is very important to supply ALL details when asking for help diagnosing a problem.
I have a matching numbers three speed transmission and it's an original floor shifting car. TH?
I have a matching numbers three speed transmission and it's an original floor shifting car. TH?
One more time...
The TH350 did not exist in the 1968 model year. Either you don't have a "numbers matching" trans or you don't have a TH350. The only three speed automatic offered in the 1968 model year was the TH400, and that was not installed in the Cutlass models, only in the 442 and Vista Cruiser.
As shown in this page from the 1968 SPECS booklet, the only AT offered in a 1968 Cutlass was the two speed Jetaway.
The TH350 did not exist in the 1968 model year. Either you don't have a "numbers matching" trans or you don't have a TH350. The only three speed automatic offered in the 1968 model year was the TH400, and that was not installed in the Cutlass models, only in the 442 and Vista Cruiser.
As shown in this page from the 1968 SPECS booklet, the only AT offered in a 1968 Cutlass was the two speed Jetaway.
It's definitely a three speed. So therefore it's a th350 non original trans or it's a th400 non original trans.
I also have bucket seats with head rest. Head rests were not on 68 models correct? So who knows? Maybe it was originally a column shift car with a bench seat?
It's definitely a three speed. So therefore it's a th350 non original trans or it's a th400 non original trans.
I also have bucket seats with head rest. Head rests were not on 68 models correct? So who knows? Maybe it was originally a column shift car with a bench seat?
Headrests were an option. A very rare option, but available. A81 on Joe's sheet.
So anyway, back to the original issue. I found the NSS in the floor console located behind the shifter. I disconnected the 2 purple wires...it still didn't fire. Fuses are good, batt posts are tight. I even raised the top with plenty of batt power to spare.
I'm beginning to think it's the ignition switch. I'll start checking that out.
I found the NSS in the floor console located behind the shifter. I disconnected the 2 purple wires...it still didn't fire.
You have to place a jumper wire between the 2 purple wires, then try to start it. Make damn sure the car
is not in gear without your foot on the brake. I can cause it to start and take off on you.
So anyway, back to the original issue. I found the NSS in the floor console located behind the shifter. I disconnected the 2 purple wires...it still didn't fire. Fuses are good, batt posts are tight. I even raised the top with plenty of batt power to spare.
I'm beginning to think it's the ignition switch. I'll start checking that out.
Not disconnect. They need to be jumpered. Now that you have them off the switch, just hold them together with an alligator clamp and try starting the car. You are bypassing the switch that way. If the car starts the switch is either dead or out of adjustment.
(When you do this, please make sure the car is definitely in Park or Neutral).
Yeah I put a jumper on it and it still didn't fire.
On a complete sidenote but relevant to this issue, recently my fuel gauge has been pegging out while my car is running. If I pushed on the cluster the needle would go down to the normal position. As soon as I let go it pegs out again. When I got home the other night I took a peek under the dash to check out the connections.
I'm curious if while I was manuerving my hand back there that I knocked something loose. That was the last night I drove my car. I wasn't fondling that ignition switch area but my arm and hand were near it.
Well, the ignition switch should have a plug in the back of it. Looks like this. It's difficult to get off when you are trying to do it, but I suppose if it wasn't on properly you could have knocked it off.
Yeah I put a jumper on it and it still didn't fire.
On a complete sidenote but relevant to this issue, recently my fuel gauge has been pegging out while my car is running. If I pushed on the cluster the needle would go down to the normal position. As soon as I let go it pegs out again. When I got home the other night I took a peek under the dash to check out the connections.
I'm curious if while I was manuerving my hand back there that I knocked something loose. That was the last night I drove my car. I wasn't fondling that ignition switch area but my arm and hand were near it.
Let's not confuse "crank" with "fire"
Starter system and ignition system are almost entirely unrelated. The starter cranks the engine, then with luck it will fire up.
I believe we are trying to get your STARTER to work. After that, if it does not fire, we can work on that.
Fuel gage misbehaving?
Install the body ground. That should not affect the starting system- but is required for most body mounted electrical functions. If you do not have that, the body will ground thru all other paths- throttle cable, shifter cable, backwards thru other circuits, etc.
Perhaps you were not fondling the ign switch but molesting it? Groping the NSS? Playing footsie with the gas pedal?
:-)
PS what about the starter not being grounded properly- your car seems to have grounds left off. An ungrounded starter cannot work right. Use the test light/ buzzer/ voltmeter.
Oh... if you had your hand up behind the dash, and now a gage has issues- you quite possibly touched the wiring or connector to the gauge pods and broke off one or more of the pins to the circuit board, which is quite common due to their fragility. That would explain the "works if you press on it" feature. Easy enough to repair, or have repaired. Just gotta get the pod[s] out. Which usually breaks off more of the pins.
Have you ever found yourself looking all over for your sunglasses or keys only to later find out that they were in your hand the whole time?
Well, something similar to that happened when the solution to my problem just suddenly entered my mind.
The fix was simple, so simple that I deserve to receive any scoffing headed my way along with banishment from this forum.
As I'm racking my brain trying to troubleshoot what it is, I relive that moment when I was under the dash..."What did I hit??!!"
The Kill Switch!
An anti-theft feature I use so rarely I often forget that I have it. I must've bumped it the other night.
Don't I Feel like a horses patoot?
This post however wasn't in vain. I learned the location and how to jump the NSS. I learned that my transmission is probably not original despite what I was told several times. But most importantly I learned (I actually already knew) that the people on this forum have a wealth of knowledge and they're always more than happy to share it.
Thanks for your time and I'm sorry I wasted it!
Rhett
Last edited by rhett838; Apr 7, 2016 at 10:10 PM.
Reason: Hit post too early
I got bitten by that one too
column shift to floor shift conversion, and the NSS on the column was still in place, but no backdrive from trans to column. So, for theft resistant, just reach down and rotate the column collar.
Then later, if you forget about that feature.... the starter won't crank the engine?
Your dash gauges might still need the pins repaired.
And you got a check, need that on the engine, bodyground. I would check all grounds on
the body front and rear, JTBS. Good to hear she's up and runni'n.
Dead again! The issue is apparently deeper than the kill switch. I started up the car this morning...no problem....vroom off to work! Later I hope in to go to lunch...nothing....jiggle the kill switch nothing. I jack around with it for 30 min, I jiggle the kill switch...starts up. I leave to go home a few hours later...starts up....vroom off to the house. I pull in the garage. Turn it off, start it again...dead. Jiggle the switch...dead...dead...dead! I pull off the #%*~%# switch and connect the 2 wires that were connected to the switch. I tried to start it ....nothing!
Am I on the right path by connecting the 2 wires that were on the switch or am I missing something??? So frustrating!!!
I would really love to re-wire the dash but I have no idea how to pull the dash and re-wiring that portion might be a bit over my head.
I re-wired the engine harness and the front light harness with a kit from American Autowire...it was quite easy! The colors and the connections were all there. I'm going to do the rear light harness bc I'm missing b/u lamps but this dash NEEEDS some love! I need to ground too like some of you suggested.
If it's got to die, the garage is the best place for it.
You were correct to take the kill switch out of the circuit for now. Yes, the wires just connect to each other. Make sure you tape them up (temporarily only, long term use of electricians tape is not advised) so that you are not getting a short across them.
Next, get your engine to firewall ground strap hooked up. It looks something like this. The pic isn't from a Cutlass, just a pic I found on the Google. You can just use a 12 or 10 gauge wire for now until you can get a proper looking one. After that I would check all your connections from + and - battery to where the cables end. Make sure they are all tight and you have continuity.
Did you replace your cables when you put the new engine in?
Is the jumper you put on the NSS still tight or did it get loose?
Do I uses an existing bolt in the intake to attach that or is there an open hole I can attach a new bolt to?
I hooked the Nss back up since I don't think that's the issue.
Cables from the battery to the engine are the same before the rebuild.
I'll check to make sure everything is tight, but it's gotta be the signal between the ignition and the starter right? When it fires up it fires right up! I have good power, it's just not getting to the starter.
I'm perplexed bc this wasn't an issue at all. I flipped the switch once last night and voila! Everything was peachy again. Now I'm back to the problem I thought I had before I realized the kill switch was engaged...there's something not right and I guarantee it's simple and my gut tells me it's under the dash.
yeah everything is on...and guess what? I got it started again. You know how? I pushed the car back to create a little room. I turned the key and it started. I shut it off. Dead. Shifted through the gears it started...about 5x straight. I still don't trust it though!
The NSS still isn't jumped, but does it sound like it's buggy and needs to be replaced?
You may need to bring out the big guns and temporarily wire a light bulb to each junction in the system: Ignition switch terminal, Under dash Neutral Safety Switch connector, Neutral Safety Switch, Starter S terminal, etc. and line them up where you can see them when you start, then when it doesn't start look to see which one is lighted and which is out to pinpoint your problem.
You may need to bring out the big guns and temporarily wire a light bulb to each junction in the system: Ignition switch terminal, Under dash Neutral Safety Switch connector, Neutral Safety Switch, Starter S terminal, etc. and line them up where you can see them when you start, then when it doesn't start look to see which one is lighted and which is out to pinpoint your problem.
- Eric
Under dash Kill switch, not NSS. I could be wrong, but I don't think he has a NSS on the column.
I found the NSS in the Console shifter. Attached a jumper still nothing.
I removed the Kill switch, but now i have something better! A Mad Max style starter sequence. The secret code is put it in reverse, then park, and THEN it'll start.
I know I can troubleshoot this thing and get it going, but I'm seriously considering re-wiring the entire dash. I'm obviously having bigger issues, with my gauges pegging out and other odd things. So why put a band-aid on it?
As I posted earlier, I re-wired the front light harness and the engine harness with a harness a purchased from American Autowire. Wires are cut to length, connections are on...it was REAL EASY!
My only reservation about doing the dash is getting into the dash. Do I remove the whole thing? Or can I do it by just removing the clusters the radio etc? I know I'm going to have to remove the seats and the steering wheel anyway.
Any suggestions? Know of any good threads about dash re-wiring? Also, What can I do to make sure my gauges are in good working order or is that something I should send off?
Have you tried jumping directly from the solenoid S terminal to the battery (+) terminal?
The shifter sequence working even though jumping the NSS doesn't make a difference makes me wonder about a bad winding on the starter motor, which may somehow get just the tiniest bump when you move other things just right.
