gto4evr

Hey guys, new to this forum (obviously) but not new to muscle cars. As you can guess from my username, I've been a goat guy my past 25 years of driving though the Olds would have been my next choice if I hadn't been gifted a rotted 71 Lemans as my first car(which I still have)! Anyways, I've got a very original 68 Cutlass Supreme that I've been adding factory options to and I'd appreciate some guidance on this power trunk addition as I'm just about complete on getting it back together after the tear down for paint 4 years ago. First off, I don't see any dimples on the firewall to mount the ball. Someone linked me to an ebay auction that shows the ball mounted on the firewall (I've seen pics of just about the same location but they were always AC cars and a different style ball) Do you think this ball is correct? I've got a ball exactly like that but it has a Mopar pentagram on it. Does the vacuum hose go through the grommet that the blower motor wire taps through the firewall? Next question is the switch. I don't see a prepunched removable plug in the cardboard glove box like a Pontiac would have. Where does the hole go? Final question, I'm assuming it has a one way vac valve between the tank and the engine source. What's my source for this line, was it T'd into the back of the carb or did it have a specific tree with more ports on it? This is a non-AC 350-4bbl car that's all numbers including the carb. Other than the factory power options I've added, I'm not messing with it. I got it off the original owner and has 38k documented miles on it.

Thanks again for any pictures or info you can give me!

here's the link to the ebay car

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1968-...item4cf3780c4e

Later,
Dennis
update: answered part of a question after experimenting...there won't be a one way valve because it's already part of the ball in the main tap.

rcorrigan5

I'll take a shot at this. Sometimes my explaining gets lengthy, so bear with me!

First, the dimples on the firewall. You should be able to see a number of them. If you cannot, try cleaning off the firewall above and to the passenger side of the voltage regulator (I'm assuming you have a voltage regulator mounted on the firewall). Sometimes, the factory kind of slathered on a black tar-like substance that completely covers the dimples, making them impossible to see without cleaning off the tar-like covering. About 3 1/2 inches above the passenger side screw that holds the voltage regulator to the firewall, and ever so slightly towards the center of the car, you should find a dimple. That dimple is the inboard spot for the screw that holds in the vacuum reservoir. You should then be able to find the outboard dimple by holding your vacuum reservoir inboard attachment tab up to the firewall where the inboard screw is supposed to be.

Second, attached is manual section 1-5, page 370 of the assembly manual. Figure 1 (upper right hand corner) shows the routing of the vacuum hoses.

Third, attached is manual section 1-5, page 372 of the assembly manual. The diagram in the lower left hand corner shows routing of the vacuum hoses under the hood. The vacuum hose that goes to the switch is routed through the same grommet as the heater wire, as you mentioned.

Fourth, attached is manual section 1-5, page 371. It shows where the trunk release switch is mounted in the glove box. You have to mount the switch through the metal part of the glove box, and not the cardboard part. There are two dimples in the vicinity of where the switch is mounted.

One thing I don't quite understand, and perhaps someone else can chime in on this, is that I thought the plastic vacuum cannisters didn't come into use until the '69 model year. I thought that, through the '68 model year, Olds was still using those "tin can" cannisters. But my '68 assembly manual shows what appears to me to be the newer plastic style cannister.

The plastic cannister I have doesn't seem to have an MOPAR markings on it, although it is rather dirty. I did find an address on the opposite side of the two vacuum fittings - it says "Dole Valve Co, Morton Grove, Ill., Patent Pending". I don't see any part numbers or any other markers.

I highly recommend that you purchase an assembly manual and a chassis service manual for your '68 Supreme. Those books are invaluable in finding out how things are supposed to be, as witnessed just by the 3 attached pages.

Oh, yes, there's nothing wrong with Goats. I've got one, too!

Hope this helps.

Randy C.

69ho aurora

I had a number of 68s with canisters and they were all the plastic ones. The loaded 442 ragtop I had used 2. That was a built in 68 car though... The one page (1-2 112) list an optional part number (added to the doc 5-26-67), but since it is sequential with the regular number, I doubt it would be an existing old style part. I don't have a pre-68 book to check for metal ones for previous years.

Yellowstatue

My '68, built in April, has a plastic canister...

gto4evr

Randy,

Thanks for the in depth response. I’m right there for you on any 68-72 GTO info you need! As for manuals, I think I have the record for stupid money spent on factory documentation. Over the years I've collected every Service manual, Fisher Body manual, assembly manual, dealer TSB binder (tech service bulletins), GM parts and illustration guides for 67-71 Pontiacs and it makes me itchy just thinking about the collective dollar amount sitting on that bookshelf! Half of that was for the collectible standpoint, the other because I’d rather page through a real book than squint at a pdf file on a tiny computer screen! Unfortunately, none of those books other than the 68 fisher manual help with an Olds and not at all in this case.

On the firewall dimples, let me clarify and change my earlier statement from “didn’t see dimples” to “didn’t see dimples that lined up with the tank.” I did see a dimple above the voltage regulator like you describe but nothing lined up on the other side of the tank for the other hole. If you could measure your bolt to bolt distance on the mounting base I’d appreciate it. My tank looks identical to this ebay car tank, it’s just that damn Mopar emblem that’s bothering me. I’m positive I got this tank when I bought the vac release option years ago but that doesn’t prove anything. I've checked it all over and the only information on it is that pentagram and a number 2396 450 next to the symbol. That's not a GM part number so unless it was a universal design that Dole produced for the general car market, I don't know what else to think other than someone just put it with the pile of trunk release parts on the swap meet table. It also seemed like the tank was sitting too high and would interfere with the hood if I used that hole to mount it. I did notice some strange tar patterns on the firewall across the heater grommet. I’ve still got a grease pencil mark on the firewall above the heater box that says 71 on it. My picture 7460 is where I'm thinking the dimples are for the tank but they're too close together compared to the tank by around 3/4"

On the switch, I never thought to look on the face of the dash, I expected it on the side of the box like all the goats. I guessed on the routing going under the rug and up behind the firewall pad, then back up over the top of the heater box to get to the switch. This diagram doesn’t seem to contradict that so I guess I'm good there. I have a feeling I'll be hurting trying to get the hose through that grommet though.. I see the two dimples to the left of the courtesy light. I answered my next question as to which one gets drilled by looking at the switch. The top dimple is for holding the tit on the back of the bezel from spinning and the bottom hole gets drilled for the switch.

On the engine source, that diagram says “tank to elbow” The last diagram shows the elbow on the manifold. If you look at my picture 7462a I've got two places marked. It's been quite a few years but I believe "A" was the original site of the air cleaner hose tapped into the manifold that I must have removed for a bigger tap to T in for the power brake booster when I added the power discs. Am I right in guessing that the plug marked B in the picture should be the elbow they're refering to for the tank vac?

That’s a nice pair of cars you got there! I’ve got too many toys I’ve collected over my years and they’re drivers so most of them are getting a bit rough again. I made my parents buy this car around 18 years ago when a co-workers mom died and they didn’t want to keep the car because it was “old” and the guy wanted a Fiero instead. It was the classic little old lady car still in original paint with 31k on the clock. I needed another project like a hole in the head but I couldn’t pass it up so used the run up of the investment aspect of the car to talk them into it. Then, a few years ago, I stopped them from taking it to a local roll it on paint shop because the car really needed new quarter skins to be painted the right way and said I’d do it myself. That was 4 years ago and it’s finally almost finished. No time anymore with two little punks 8 and 10 yrs old but I spent 14 hours on Halloween night getting it into paint. Just a few things left to finish up. I've had my 69 Judge sitting in a garage since highschool back in 86 and I still haven't gotten to that car yet. At this rate it'll be a grandfather/grandson project.....

Thanks again for all the help!
Dennis

69ho aurora

I've attached a scan of the page I mentioned. It shows a little clearer where the tank should mount. It seems to match the ebay photo you linked to. Looks like the dimples you are looking for may be under some of the sealer. Looks like they should be lower and left of the ones you highlighted.

rcorrigan5

I measured my vacuum cannister - it's 4 1/4" side-to-side (where the screws go) and 4 1/4" top to bottom. I'd say it's definitely different than the one you have by looking at your pictures. Even the hose fittings on the cannister appear slightly different. I know my cannister is Oldsmobile as it came off of a 1969 Olds 98. I'd send this one to you but I need it for later use!

In reassessing where the cannister goes, I'm now convinced it is attached at the set of dimples that you circled in your picture. When I looked at it last night, it appeared to me that the vacuum line closest to the firewall would not clear the voltage regulator if the cannister was attached at that lower set of dimples. I took another look, and the line definitely clears the voltage regulator at that position. At the upper position, there might be slight interference with the hood when it is down.

That tar substance is a sealer that the factory applied rather generously wherever there was a passage through the firewall.

In looking at the engine source for vacuum, I scanned another page from the assembly manual, which is attached below. The lower left picture on manual section 6-1, page 128, show the two places you refer to in your picture. It appears to me that the source you have marked as "A" is for the remote trunk opener (option 35A91), and that the source marked "B" is for power brakes (35J50) or power front disc brakes (35J52).

My '69 4-4-2 convertible has been a work in progress for the last 23 years. The '68 4-4-2 is done (has been in our family since early 1969), the '70 GTO is a driver that I bought from the original owner's son back in 1986 for $2300. The GTO has 73K original miles but it is a plain jane - auto on the column, bench seat. I've added factory gauges in place of the idiot lights, a factory tach in place of the clock, and a factory AM-FM mono radio in place of the AM radio. We also have a '71 Corvette. I bought these cars when they were cheap and no one wanted them, but now I'm thinking that 4 cars is too many. Two cars would be ideal, but I don't want to part with any of them!

You asked a question on another thread about your interior. Keep in mind, I'm an original sort of person, but I would keep that bench seat with the fold down arm rest and go with the original style new interior if you can find it. Just my personal opinion, but I believe a collector car that's kept as close to factory correct as possible is a better investment in the longer run than a car that's been modified. I don't mind changing things (like the gauges and tach and radio) that can easily be changed back to "build sheet correct", but if it involves drilling new or extra holes, I won't do it! Again, just a personal opinion. There are lots of people at this site who disagree with me, but that's the nice wonder of this site. Bottom line - you do it the way you want it!

Hope this helps.

Randy C.

PS: Where are you located?

gto4evr

Randy,

I'll send you my address, you won't need that for years yet and I'll keep it safe for you!! Actually, after reading this post, I hopped on ebay and tracked one down for $16 -- does this one look better than my chrysler one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...TQ:MOTORS:1123


After chasing through a few auctions, they all seemed the same between those years on the GM tanks and the size of the vac tap seemed to make much more sense than this mopar one with at best a 1/16" line required to cap it. The 5/32 that I strung from the decklid to the switch wasn't close to fitting on this mopar ball. For the $16 it's worth the gamble. Back when I got the old one I was so happy to find the "complete" setup after my first failed attempt at adding the option without fully understanding it that I didn't pay enough attention to the foreign vac tank! First time around I'd bought just the switch and the actuator. After installing it, I figured the trunk lock needed to be longer to reach through to the lever. So being the suave "make it work" smarty pants guy that I am, I assumed the lock lever just needed to be longer so I took apart an extra lock, cut and welded an extension on the arm and hooked it all up. Wow, that works great....that is as long as you leave a key in the lock to allow the tumbler to rotate with the latch! Thats when more research revealed that special ball rotator thing-a-ma-bob that no one on the planet sells seperately. Paid for the option all over again and was happy to get the tank with it the second time around and now it's the wrong damn thing!

Yeah, that tar smear thing looks foreign to me, I've never seen that done on any of my Lemans/goats over the years but it's definitely insurance on a leak. My first thought was it was just looked tacky, like some moron with a rattle can of undercoating going nuts. I wonder about if the full resto cars actually get that treatment. You know how things become "correct" down the road with all of these paint daubs and perfect paint under the chassis rather than how they really came off the line. Ever drive by a dealership and look at all the rust all over the drivetrain on the bare metal of these factory fresh cars? You'll never see that at a carshow twenty years from now when it's restored to "factory".

Thanks for the diagram on the engine vacuum. Looks like I need to swap plug locations on my power discs, then add the small tap back in where the air cleaner thermovac was plugged in and just T that line with the tank vacuum. The thermovac tap was a vertical one, this calls for a 90 so since all cars came with air cleaners, I'm assuming they still want a 90 on there and the T would work off the side of it.

Yep, I'm a stickler for originality in the aspect that I don't want anything on the car that wouldn't have been an available option at the time. As in, I'll add factory options as long as they're correct for the year/model and were available at the time. I'm worried about them passing muster from a knowledgeable person just like I'd critique a car, not worried about matching the build sheet in a line by line comparison. This 68 was 100% unmolested when I got it. Because it was bought for a future collectible/investment/retirement car for my parents, I started adding options to make it more "comfortable" for them. The only options this car had on it from the factory were a rear defroster and a remote driverside mirror. After getting the car I added Power Steering, power disc brakes, power windows, power seat, rear sway bar, a right side mirror, Rally rims, and now the power trunk release. I get cold sweats thinking about the permanent changes, but nothing was as hard as drilling those two holes in the right door for that mirror! I was able to bring myself to make these changes more easily because it wasn't "MY" car....that seems like a cruel joke now after putting 314 hours into this paint job - (yes, I'm **** enough to have tracked all my work and spending on a spreadsheet) I can't let my parents near this car now! Problem is that I've already got 4 cars now, and there's no room for this car over here. Nothing can leave my flock for various reasons. My 71 Lemans was my first car and bought new by my grandmother. I remember sleeping up on top of the package tray on a trip when I was 3 years old - call child services! I've been driving that car for 26 years minus a few here and there for restos. I've also got my 69 GTO convertible clone is my only convertible and the only car that's actually "done", I've got a 67 Lemans that's my wife's first car, and I've got a 69 Judge hardtop that's been sitting in my garage for the past 25 years waiting for me to put it back together. None of those can be sold to make room for this cutlass, though the cutlass is now nicer than three of them.

On that bench seat, No way in hell I want it changed, it just bugs me that the one seam split. There's another thing to be said for NOT making changes to cars as well, on my 71 Lemans, I added every option under the sun to that car over the years and I miss the bench seats. Yeah, the buckets are more "sporty" but there's something to be said for simplicity and this cutlass bench makes me miss the way my 71 was back in 84 when I first started driving it.

As to where I am...that's Lancaster NY. It's about 5 miles east of Buffalo by Niagara Falls. How about you?

Later,
Dennis

64Rocket

My '68 is a factory A/C car, but it has two vacuum canisters. One on the firewall next to the regulator and one under the drivers side hood hinge. I do have trunk release and also factory cruise control. As far as I can tell the one on the firewall is for the heater A/c controls. The other is for my cruise control and the trunk release.

Gene

rcorrigan5

Yes, there are a number of different vacuum configurations based on the options you have. My '68 doesn't have any vacuum cannisters on the firewall. With the remote trunk opener, you'll have at least one. With A/C, you'll have at least two. And then there's cruise control and power door locks, both of which involve more vacuum configurations. It all depends on the number of vacuum-operated options you have.

Randy C.

gto4evr

Update: Ebay delivered and it's now installed How's this for the optical illusion I fell for. Meet Dr. Mopar and his clone Mini-Me! I just needed a point of reference for scale and I wouldn't have been sucked down the path of wasted time. Now I just need to fire up the motor for some vacuum to see if it works. Thanks again for the help!

rcorrigan5

Pretty slick! I'll have to do the same thing on my '69 if I ever get to work on it. I pulled a remote vacuum trunk opener out of a wrecked '68 some 25 years ago and still have it in a box. I was in the junkyard looking for odds and ends, opened the glove box of a '68 Cutlass, saw the button and had to press it. Pop went the trunk - I guess there was just enough vacuum left to open the trunk one more time and that allowed me to pull the entire system. I just now need to get busy on the '69!

Randy C.