OCA is bullsh*t
February 16th, 2024, 07:55 AM
#41
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 515
Mostly. Do all that stuff on the list and unless the same people judge the car, you'll get a new and different list next time. 
I have learned that the majority of the time, YOU know your car far better than the judges do. This is not to take anything away from the judges by no means. There's some sharp and eagle-eyed folks that can swarm on a car, pick it apart in minutes and have a reasonable consensus of what's correct and what's not-so-correct. The judges confer with each other if there's a conflict in the judging, and most of the time they come up with a good decision. This doesn't mean it's the end all be all. As we have seen simply concerning positive battery cable routing on a 69 H/O, that BOTH routings could be considered correct as we've got reasonable reasons to believe that. What the original intentions for that cable routing were, who knows? But there's going to be judges that believe it should be one way and not the other. So you have to arm yourself with information that can reasonably prove your position should you feel the need to "fight for points" as it were. I'm not that **** about it so to me, it's like, whatever.
Judges do not know everything about your car. And it can get confusing if say, mid-year they decided to change up something on the cars. Judges may or may not be aware. But what I've also seen is that a lot of times, it's cleanliness issues knocking off points. If I fixed up my 85 442 the exact way I got it from the factory and entered it into the stock class, I'd probably get deductions for missing and mal-adjusted stuff. There's no way to "prove" my car didn't come with a nut on the cruise bracket to the T-stat housing stud, or that the orange carb return spring was missing. Or that I didn't receive the black, rubberized washer for under the chrome air cleaner lid's wing nut. And recently I found the lower bolt and spacer missing for the PS bracket to the block. Appears it's never been there but I can't prove it just didn't fall out somewhere. Oh, and I'm missing the M8 nut for the back of the through-bolt adjuster on the alternator. Didn't know it was supposed to be there until looking at a parts book for it. Lessee, and the transmission bullet retainer and bolt for the speedo gear- missing from the factory. The hood adjuster bold locks weren't set on the front of the hood and didn't realize that until the adjusters vibrated down and the corners of the hood went flopping around. QC took the day off when my car was built, it seems.
I have learned that the majority of the time, YOU know your car far better than the judges do. This is not to take anything away from the judges by no means. There's some sharp and eagle-eyed folks that can swarm on a car, pick it apart in minutes and have a reasonable consensus of what's correct and what's not-so-correct. The judges confer with each other if there's a conflict in the judging, and most of the time they come up with a good decision. This doesn't mean it's the end all be all. As we have seen simply concerning positive battery cable routing on a 69 H/O, that BOTH routings could be considered correct as we've got reasonable reasons to believe that. What the original intentions for that cable routing were, who knows? But there's going to be judges that believe it should be one way and not the other. So you have to arm yourself with information that can reasonably prove your position should you feel the need to "fight for points" as it were. I'm not that **** about it so to me, it's like, whatever.
Judges do not know everything about your car. And it can get confusing if say, mid-year they decided to change up something on the cars. Judges may or may not be aware. But what I've also seen is that a lot of times, it's cleanliness issues knocking off points. If I fixed up my 85 442 the exact way I got it from the factory and entered it into the stock class, I'd probably get deductions for missing and mal-adjusted stuff. There's no way to "prove" my car didn't come with a nut on the cruise bracket to the T-stat housing stud, or that the orange carb return spring was missing. Or that I didn't receive the black, rubberized washer for under the chrome air cleaner lid's wing nut. And recently I found the lower bolt and spacer missing for the PS bracket to the block. Appears it's never been there but I can't prove it just didn't fall out somewhere. Oh, and I'm missing the M8 nut for the back of the through-bolt adjuster on the alternator. Didn't know it was supposed to be there until looking at a parts book for it. Lessee, and the transmission bullet retainer and bolt for the speedo gear- missing from the factory. The hood adjuster bold locks weren't set on the front of the hood and didn't realize that until the adjusters vibrated down and the corners of the hood went flopping around. QC took the day off when my car was built, it seems.
This is likely true. I've had great arguements with a friend who owned a 1970 442 saying stuff was wrong on my 1969 442. There were suttle differences in things like the heater hose clamps, etc etc Even that ONE year makes a difference. OCA has class groupings of similar era cars. But like i said before, there could be suttle diferences. Overall OCA tries to find people who know your era car best, but some judges might know more then others depending on the judging crew that year. We don't have National Corvette Restorers Society type info for our Oldes, do we really want go there? or is it even realistic for so many years and models??? I feel most of the judging crews try their best, but it is far from perfect and absolute.
Fred
February 16th, 2024, 09:53 AM
#42
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 1,894
What Fred said.
These are volunteer judges guys. They don't get paid. They don't get anything but a free hat.
They need about 120 people to volunteer to give up 4-5 hours of their vacation to stand in hot the sun, kneel on the boiling blacktop and look over every inch of your car and the 20 next to it.
If you don't care about factory correct, enter street stock, modified, driver or race car. If you do care about factory correct, prepare to be nit picked about all the things that aren't factory correct.
I get that there are midyear differences and differences from factory to factory, but the head judges usually tell the judges to let plausibly correct items to go.
Most of them aren't out there to bust *****.
If any of you think you can do it better...by all means volunteer, throw your hat in the ring, add your expertise.
Mike, man that's truly disappointing, to lose 41 years of your loyal patronage over a small homage to your dedication is a disappointment.
You're one of the most dedicated Olds' guys I know.
These are volunteer judges guys. They don't get paid. They don't get anything but a free hat.
They need about 120 people to volunteer to give up 4-5 hours of their vacation to stand in hot the sun, kneel on the boiling blacktop and look over every inch of your car and the 20 next to it.
If you don't care about factory correct, enter street stock, modified, driver or race car. If you do care about factory correct, prepare to be nit picked about all the things that aren't factory correct.
I get that there are midyear differences and differences from factory to factory, but the head judges usually tell the judges to let plausibly correct items to go.
Most of them aren't out there to bust *****.
If any of you think you can do it better...by all means volunteer, throw your hat in the ring, add your expertise.
Mike, man that's truly disappointing, to lose 41 years of your loyal patronage over a small homage to your dedication is a disappointment.
You're one of the most dedicated Olds' guys I know.
Last edited by Rallye469; February 16th, 2024 at 09:55 AM.
February 16th, 2024, 10:03 AM
#43
Escape From The Ordinary
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,873
I would hope someone from the OCA reaches out to a member of 41 years to rectify the situation.
The nationals judging is an imperfect science. It's volunteer driven and honestly a pretty big time commitment. Until there is a published judging manual for '70 to '72 A-bodies, it'll remain an imperfect science. For 95% of the attendees, a few comments on the sheet and a $10 wooden plaque warms the heart. This won't change until the generation who is just happy to be there in their lawn chairs reach an age where they're too old to attend. Unfortunately, when it reaches that point, the participation within the OCA will likely decline as that older generation does 80% of the work to keep the club functioning. I tip my hat to that group as it's a lot of work.
I do think there is an opportunity to make a class or two a little more competitive. Solicit the most knowledgeable volunteers for those classes, change the sheet up a bit, eliminate the silly OCA spirit item category, and recognize that a high score has a lasting impact on the provenance of the car when it moves on to its next caretaker. I'd also change the "master judge" program up a bit where it's focused more on accomplishment versus activity.
For now, I'm happy to receive my digital OCA publication as it's always a good read.
The nationals judging is an imperfect science. It's volunteer driven and honestly a pretty big time commitment. Until there is a published judging manual for '70 to '72 A-bodies, it'll remain an imperfect science. For 95% of the attendees, a few comments on the sheet and a $10 wooden plaque warms the heart. This won't change until the generation who is just happy to be there in their lawn chairs reach an age where they're too old to attend. Unfortunately, when it reaches that point, the participation within the OCA will likely decline as that older generation does 80% of the work to keep the club functioning. I tip my hat to that group as it's a lot of work.
I do think there is an opportunity to make a class or two a little more competitive. Solicit the most knowledgeable volunteers for those classes, change the sheet up a bit, eliminate the silly OCA spirit item category, and recognize that a high score has a lasting impact on the provenance of the car when it moves on to its next caretaker. I'd also change the "master judge" program up a bit where it's focused more on accomplishment versus activity.
For now, I'm happy to receive my digital OCA publication as it's always a good read.
February 16th, 2024, 10:14 AM
#44
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,108
I got points taken off for having cracked acorns strewn between my air cleaner and intake manifold. Something about cleanliness. Oh well. The point or two taken off was worth a good laugh. And to this day that Judge and I still get a chuckle over it. Priceless memories.
Last edited by BlueCalais79; February 16th, 2024 at 10:21 AM.
February 16th, 2024, 10:49 AM
#45
I got points taken off for having cracked acorns strewn between my air cleaner and intake manifold. Something about cleanliness. Oh well. The point or two taken off was worth a good laugh. And to this day that Judge and I still get a chuckle over it. Priceless memories.
February 16th, 2024, 12:18 PM
#50
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 1,894
That's a 3 pt deduction for sure!
But I think I see a factory manual under the pine straw...so there's 5 pts back.
But seriously, most guys who enter the factory appearing class probably have a billion points worth of literature and flair sitting at home.
Don't we all?
But I think I see a factory manual under the pine straw...so there's 5 pts back.
But seriously, most guys who enter the factory appearing class probably have a billion points worth of literature and flair sitting at home.
Don't we all?
February 16th, 2024, 01:24 PM
#51
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Birmingham,Alabama
Posts: 4,617
What Fred said.
These are volunteer judges guys. They don't get paid. They don't get anything but a free hat.
They need about 120 people to volunteer to give up 4-5 hours of their vacation to stand in hot the sun, kneel on the boiling blacktop and look over every inch of your car and the 20 next to it.
If you don't care about factory correct, enter street stock, modified, driver or race car. If you do care about factory correct, prepare to be nit picked about all the things that aren't factory correct.
I get that there are midyear differences and differences from factory to factory, but the head judges usually tell the judges to let plausibly correct items to go.
Most of them aren't out there to bust *****.
If any of you think you can do it better...by all means volunteer, throw your hat in the ring, add your expertise.
Mike, man that's truly disappointing, to lose 41 years of your loyal patronage over a small homage to your dedication is a disappointment.
You're one of the most dedicated Olds' guys I know.
These are volunteer judges guys. They don't get paid. They don't get anything but a free hat.
They need about 120 people to volunteer to give up 4-5 hours of their vacation to stand in hot the sun, kneel on the boiling blacktop and look over every inch of your car and the 20 next to it.
If you don't care about factory correct, enter street stock, modified, driver or race car. If you do care about factory correct, prepare to be nit picked about all the things that aren't factory correct.
I get that there are midyear differences and differences from factory to factory, but the head judges usually tell the judges to let plausibly correct items to go.
Most of them aren't out there to bust *****.
If any of you think you can do it better...by all means volunteer, throw your hat in the ring, add your expertise.
Mike, man that's truly disappointing, to lose 41 years of your loyal patronage over a small homage to your dedication is a disappointment.
You're one of the most dedicated Olds' guys I know.
Evidently they absolutely don't care. I have defended the OCA to a fault @ times & I recently sold a 40 year collection of JWO magazines to a fellow OCA member. I had the complete set of 40 years minus 2 or 3 issues. That's how dedicated I was keping them through 2 divorces and now a third marriage. It's been a great run with all of the friends and great times in the hobby.
February 16th, 2024, 09:29 PM
#52
Oldsdruid
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Southside Vajenya
Posts: 10,299
Mike, I'd tell you to contact the SE Zone directors but I find them completely unresponsive to any communications or concerns. Phone messages, emails, whatever. Never answered or returned.
The years I served as Zone director I tried to ALWAYS answer any communications from members in the Zone. Looks like that's not a director priority any more.
I didn't get much of a response on 40 year member recognition either. All I got was a brief email response saying it was in the works.
If there'd been a life membership option Iike AACA and SCV offer I might have taken advantage of that years ago. As it is the only person who was ever offered and given a life membership did more to destroy OCA than anyone before or since.
The years I served as Zone director I tried to ALWAYS answer any communications from members in the Zone. Looks like that's not a director priority any more.
I didn't get much of a response on 40 year member recognition either. All I got was a brief email response saying it was in the works.
If there'd been a life membership option Iike AACA and SCV offer I might have taken advantage of that years ago. As it is the only person who was ever offered and given a life membership did more to destroy OCA than anyone before or since.
February 17th, 2024, 08:49 AM
#54
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Birmingham,Alabama
Posts: 4,617
Mike, I'd tell you to contact the SE Zone directors but I find them completely unresponsive to any communications or concerns. Phone messages, emails, whatever. Never answered or returned.
The years I served as Zone director I tried to ALWAYS answer any communications from members in the Zone. Looks like that's not a director priority any more.
I didn't get much of a response on 40 year member recognition either. All I got was a brief email response saying it was in the works.
If there'd been a life membership option Iike AACA and SCV offer I might have taken advantage of that years ago. As it is the only person who was ever offered and given a life membership did more to destroy OCA than anyone before or since.
The years I served as Zone director I tried to ALWAYS answer any communications from members in the Zone. Looks like that's not a director priority any more.
I didn't get much of a response on 40 year member recognition either. All I got was a brief email response saying it was in the works.
If there'd been a life membership option Iike AACA and SCV offer I might have taken advantage of that years ago. As it is the only person who was ever offered and given a life membership did more to destroy OCA than anyone before or since.
February 17th, 2024, 06:19 PM
#55
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 6,267
For them to demand that BS is just that BS. They loose how many because of the silliest stupid rule ever? Ask this. Who made that rule? Silliest dumb *** rule ever.
You shut down a 41 year member over this? So So So completely lame. Seriously. Who made that rule and why? Seriously who made that rule??
So because someone doesn't have THREE forced whatever's they suck? No thank you. You completely lose me.
66 3x2 is deep in Oldsmobile. You dog him because he doesn't have some whatever?? What the F?? Zero sense in that. Zero.
You shut down a 41 year member over this? So So So completely lame. Seriously. Who made that rule and why? Seriously who made that rule??
So because someone doesn't have THREE forced whatever's they suck? No thank you. You completely lose me.
66 3x2 is deep in Oldsmobile. You dog him because he doesn't have some whatever?? What the F?? Zero sense in that. Zero.
Last edited by no1oldsfan; February 17th, 2024 at 06:24 PM.
February 17th, 2024, 07:35 PM
#56
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Birmingham,Alabama
Posts: 4,617
For them to demand that BS is just that BS. They loose how many because of the silliest stupid rule ever? Ask this. Who made that rule? Silliest dumb *** rule ever.
You shut down a 41 year member over this? So So So completely lame. Seriously. Who made that rule and why? Seriously who made that rule??
So because someone doesn't have THREE forced whatever's they suck? No thank you. You completely lose me.
66 3x2 is deep in Oldsmobile. You dog him because he doesn't have some whatever?? What the F?? Zero sense in that. Zero.
You shut down a 41 year member over this? So So So completely lame. Seriously. Who made that rule and why? Seriously who made that rule??
So because someone doesn't have THREE forced whatever's they suck? No thank you. You completely lose me.
66 3x2 is deep in Oldsmobile. You dog him because he doesn't have some whatever?? What the F?? Zero sense in that. Zero.
February 17th, 2024, 08:07 PM
#57
Oldsdruid
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Southside Vajenya
Posts: 10,299
February 20th, 2024, 09:05 AM
#58
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: New York
Posts: 74
Hi everyone,
I am the current president of the OCA and have been president the last 4 years. I can't speak about the past behavior or experiences you have had prior to me becoming president and can only respond to issues that have come up since I have been president.
I normally do not respond to posts like this, but felt I needed to clear the air a bit and offer possible explanations to certain things the OCA does. I totally understand that everyone is entitled to their opinion of the OCA. Many don't agree with certain guidelines the club has set up and some do agree with some of the things the OCA does. Like I said before, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Let me just remind everyone that this hobby should be fun, but I understand why many people get pretty passionate about many of these things.
So let me address the item of OCA communication. Do emails, phone calls, text messages to the OCA go unanswered from time to time? Yes they do for various reasons, but I do meet with the Board of Directors every two months and stress the importance of responding/communicating with our members. Has it gotten better than it was in past years? I hope so and I believe communication has improved the last few years. One statement I would like to make is if anyone here has sent me a message of any kind or called me, I have always repsonded to you. I would challenge any of you to claim I have never responded to you, as I respond to every communique sent to me. So I would hope the statements that the OCA doesn't communicate or respond to its members would begin to subside.
Another item I would like to address is the unfortunate, recent incident with 66-3X2 442. I did respond to 66-3X2 442 when I first received his email alerting me to that the fact, he didn't receive his 40 year pin and I told him I would look into it and get back to him with what/why it happened. I also stated I would get this remedied and fixed. So yesterday, I responded with the following:
Mike,
I emailed you a while ago in response to you not receiving your 40 year pin from the OCA. I want to apologize again for the 40 year pin snafu and told you I would look into it and get back to you. Sorry it took longer than expected but I do work a full time job, plus I am in the middle of opening up registration for this year's National Meet, along with evaluating all the proposals we received from venues/cities throughout the country for locations/sites for the 2025 Nationals and beyond.
I am not making excuses but I did want you to know I volunteer a lot of my time to this club and I really do try my best at making all our members as happy as I can. I just wanted to communicate the facts and hopefully set the expectations as to when you will receive your pin.
I spoke to our Long Term Membership Chair several times about this and requested her to send you your 40 year pin. She told me she is assembling about 300 pins to mail at the end of this week. I assume we have many members waiting for their various pins, hence the delay. I am hoping the pins should arrive sometime next week.
Once again she is also a volunteer and doesn't get paid for the pins and shipping of the pins. Another item I will bring up for awareness is she mails them in bulk when time permits and she doesn't mail them as members anniversary dates come up. It's not the best of systems, but once again, because it is all volunteer work we try our best.
Hopefully you understand the reason for the extensive delay, and hope you will re-consider staying with the club.
If there is anything else I can help with, please let me know
Sal Barberi
I am only try to clear up the air here. I do want to make everyone aware of the truth and the reality of the situation. I don't believe the people who volunteer to help this club are lazy, vindictive, or on a power trip. I have heard rumors of past officers of this club "abusing" their position or perceived power, but I really do think the current Board of Directors is really trying to make smart and prudent decisions to keep the OCA flourishing for years to come. I sincerely hope Mike who is a long time member of the club and an Oldsmobile enthusiast will forgive us and renew his membership. We are "family" and sometimes families have misunderstandings. Hopefully we can move on from this and continue to have the OCA be a fun club for many of us.
I would encourage all of you to continue to share your thoughts, opinions, and discussion of the OCA. Like I said, not everything we do is going to meet everyone's approval or expectation, but we do try to make this club interesting and fun.
I understand I am opening up the gates to more opinons, responses, and criticism but would ask to you to direct them at me and not the club.
Regards
Sal Barberi
914 523-6851
I am the current president of the OCA and have been president the last 4 years. I can't speak about the past behavior or experiences you have had prior to me becoming president and can only respond to issues that have come up since I have been president.
I normally do not respond to posts like this, but felt I needed to clear the air a bit and offer possible explanations to certain things the OCA does. I totally understand that everyone is entitled to their opinion of the OCA. Many don't agree with certain guidelines the club has set up and some do agree with some of the things the OCA does. Like I said before, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Let me just remind everyone that this hobby should be fun, but I understand why many people get pretty passionate about many of these things.
So let me address the item of OCA communication. Do emails, phone calls, text messages to the OCA go unanswered from time to time? Yes they do for various reasons, but I do meet with the Board of Directors every two months and stress the importance of responding/communicating with our members. Has it gotten better than it was in past years? I hope so and I believe communication has improved the last few years. One statement I would like to make is if anyone here has sent me a message of any kind or called me, I have always repsonded to you. I would challenge any of you to claim I have never responded to you, as I respond to every communique sent to me. So I would hope the statements that the OCA doesn't communicate or respond to its members would begin to subside.
Another item I would like to address is the unfortunate, recent incident with 66-3X2 442. I did respond to 66-3X2 442 when I first received his email alerting me to that the fact, he didn't receive his 40 year pin and I told him I would look into it and get back to him with what/why it happened. I also stated I would get this remedied and fixed. So yesterday, I responded with the following:
Mike,
I emailed you a while ago in response to you not receiving your 40 year pin from the OCA. I want to apologize again for the 40 year pin snafu and told you I would look into it and get back to you. Sorry it took longer than expected but I do work a full time job, plus I am in the middle of opening up registration for this year's National Meet, along with evaluating all the proposals we received from venues/cities throughout the country for locations/sites for the 2025 Nationals and beyond.
I am not making excuses but I did want you to know I volunteer a lot of my time to this club and I really do try my best at making all our members as happy as I can. I just wanted to communicate the facts and hopefully set the expectations as to when you will receive your pin.
I spoke to our Long Term Membership Chair several times about this and requested her to send you your 40 year pin. She told me she is assembling about 300 pins to mail at the end of this week. I assume we have many members waiting for their various pins, hence the delay. I am hoping the pins should arrive sometime next week.
Once again she is also a volunteer and doesn't get paid for the pins and shipping of the pins. Another item I will bring up for awareness is she mails them in bulk when time permits and she doesn't mail them as members anniversary dates come up. It's not the best of systems, but once again, because it is all volunteer work we try our best.
Hopefully you understand the reason for the extensive delay, and hope you will re-consider staying with the club.
If there is anything else I can help with, please let me know
Sal Barberi
I am only try to clear up the air here. I do want to make everyone aware of the truth and the reality of the situation. I don't believe the people who volunteer to help this club are lazy, vindictive, or on a power trip. I have heard rumors of past officers of this club "abusing" their position or perceived power, but I really do think the current Board of Directors is really trying to make smart and prudent decisions to keep the OCA flourishing for years to come. I sincerely hope Mike who is a long time member of the club and an Oldsmobile enthusiast will forgive us and renew his membership. We are "family" and sometimes families have misunderstandings. Hopefully we can move on from this and continue to have the OCA be a fun club for many of us.
I would encourage all of you to continue to share your thoughts, opinions, and discussion of the OCA. Like I said, not everything we do is going to meet everyone's approval or expectation, but we do try to make this club interesting and fun.
I understand I am opening up the gates to more opinons, responses, and criticism but would ask to you to direct them at me and not the club.
Regards
Sal Barberi
914 523-6851
February 20th, 2024, 09:15 AM
#59
Running On Empty
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Earth
Posts: 18,104
I would encourage all of you to continue to share your thoughts, opinions, and discussion of the OCA. Like I said, not everything we do is going to meet everyone's approval or expectation, but we do try to make this club interesting and fun.
I understand I am opening up the gates to more opinons, responses, and criticism but would ask to you to direct them at me and not the club.
I understand I am opening up the gates to more opinons, responses, and criticism but would ask to you to direct them at me and not the club.
February 20th, 2024, 09:47 AM
#60
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: New York
Posts: 74
Norm,
I did not address the spirit item discussion because I believe our Chief Judge, Brian McArthur answered/addressed this concern/question earlier with his comments. I am not familiar with how to place his post here, but I did a "copy and paste" instead.
Here is how the literature and spirit items work at an OCA Nationals:
The items do not need to be in the trunk, just visible to the judges. I place mine in the passenger floor area. Literature covers anything factory or dealer created. All cars would have come with an owners manual, warranty card etc. Brochures, service manuals, and fabric/color books are other examples. Street/Stock, Modified, and Race Car classes do not have this requirement, nor does the Driver class.
Spirit item promote OCA, the chapters OR Oldsmobile in general. In your registration packet you'll receive a dash plaque and an event magazine, that's 2 items. Bring a copy of JWO and you're covered.
Other examples include OCA window decals, any chapter items, an award, shirts, jackets, hats, etc. It also includes anything that says Oldsmobile on it. A hat with a rocket logo works, a 442 logo on a t-shirt or a towel with an Olds script are other examples. I remind judges at the Friday morning meeting to look around, perhaps the owner may even be wearing something.
Brian McArthur
OCA Chief Judge
Are you asking the OCA change this requirement? If that is the question, I can tell you that Brian McArthur will discuss this with the judging committee and make prudent/appropriate recommendations. If a rule/policy change is something the committee feels needs to be changed, they will change the requirement.
Are you asking if I support the policy? I do like the policy as I get to see all kinds of Oldsmobile collectibles displayed. I also love hearing the stories from members on how they were able to obtain rare or hard to find items. Plus it does promote Oldsmobile and the Oldsmobile brand.
Like I said before, everyone is entitled to their opinion so many people will not like the policy and many will like the idea of collecting/displaying "spirit" items.
Did I answer your question?
Sal
I did not address the spirit item discussion because I believe our Chief Judge, Brian McArthur answered/addressed this concern/question earlier with his comments. I am not familiar with how to place his post here, but I did a "copy and paste" instead.
Here is how the literature and spirit items work at an OCA Nationals:
The items do not need to be in the trunk, just visible to the judges. I place mine in the passenger floor area. Literature covers anything factory or dealer created. All cars would have come with an owners manual, warranty card etc. Brochures, service manuals, and fabric/color books are other examples. Street/Stock, Modified, and Race Car classes do not have this requirement, nor does the Driver class.
Spirit item promote OCA, the chapters OR Oldsmobile in general. In your registration packet you'll receive a dash plaque and an event magazine, that's 2 items. Bring a copy of JWO and you're covered.
Other examples include OCA window decals, any chapter items, an award, shirts, jackets, hats, etc. It also includes anything that says Oldsmobile on it. A hat with a rocket logo works, a 442 logo on a t-shirt or a towel with an Olds script are other examples. I remind judges at the Friday morning meeting to look around, perhaps the owner may even be wearing something.
Brian McArthur
OCA Chief Judge
Are you asking the OCA change this requirement? If that is the question, I can tell you that Brian McArthur will discuss this with the judging committee and make prudent/appropriate recommendations. If a rule/policy change is something the committee feels needs to be changed, they will change the requirement.
Are you asking if I support the policy? I do like the policy as I get to see all kinds of Oldsmobile collectibles displayed. I also love hearing the stories from members on how they were able to obtain rare or hard to find items. Plus it does promote Oldsmobile and the Oldsmobile brand.
Like I said before, everyone is entitled to their opinion so many people will not like the policy and many will like the idea of collecting/displaying "spirit" items.
Did I answer your question?
Sal
February 20th, 2024, 10:56 AM
#62
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,845
I would like to add that I am a couple months shy of 48 years in OCA and have seen all kinds of leadership. What we have now, and have had for the past decade, has been far better than a lot that came before. As for judging, even the race car classes have easy points toward your 1000 points from spirit items, fire extinguisher, promotional items, etc. Go to the OCA website and look at the judging forms for some guidance. Gee, that gives you some points you can be sure of getting with minimal effort. In fact, it would be hard to fall below a third place rating. I remember a barn find at the Texas zone show we judged a few years ago. It got some points for things like paint because it still had some paint on it! I think it ended up with a Second Place trophy. I much prefer a judged approach, flawed as it is vs. perfection, instead of giving everyone a simple participant award that basically says nothing.
February 23rd, 2024, 03:43 AM
#63
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,898
I was in the OCA in the 80’s up until about 2000. I helped run the Nationals in Canada in 94 in London. Back then the OCA absolutely hated anything to do with racing or performance. That’s why the OPC was formed…they were shunned by the OCA.
in 94 in London after the Saturday car show we went for a cruise through downtown Saturday night..the local police knew about it and left us alone. On the Sunday we had the local drag strip booked for the club to grudge race each other.
But, being affiliated with the OCA, some of that didn’t go over well with the OCA hierarchy.
the park we had it at was beautiful, lots of trees for shade and cars on the grass. That’s what a car event should be like..not sitting in a parking lot baking like a piece of meat waiting for a judge to tell you what’s not right with your car….I’ve been to many national meets in the U.S. mostly for the swap meets. The spirit item thing is funny,,first time I heard of if.
Most of the guys I know here gave up on the OCA many years ago because of the disdain for anything performance or racing. If I had of stayed in it , I would have got my 40 year pin already..and, missed all the goofiness 😁
in 94 in London after the Saturday car show we went for a cruise through downtown Saturday night..the local police knew about it and left us alone. On the Sunday we had the local drag strip booked for the club to grudge race each other.
But, being affiliated with the OCA, some of that didn’t go over well with the OCA hierarchy.
the park we had it at was beautiful, lots of trees for shade and cars on the grass. That’s what a car event should be like..not sitting in a parking lot baking like a piece of meat waiting for a judge to tell you what’s not right with your car….I’ve been to many national meets in the U.S. mostly for the swap meets. The spirit item thing is funny,,first time I heard of if.
Most of the guys I know here gave up on the OCA many years ago because of the disdain for anything performance or racing. If I had of stayed in it , I would have got my 40 year pin already..and, missed all the goofiness 😁
February 23rd, 2024, 04:37 AM
#64
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: southeastern Michigan
Posts: 14,200
I went to an Olds Club of Canada national meet (back when there was an Olds Club of Canada) in 2009. I forget the exact city, but it was in southern Ontario between Windsor and Hamilton. Anyway, yes, the show was in a park, lots of trees, cars parked on grass, all very comfortable and a beautiful setting. It was a ONE DAY event.
But there were maybe 20 or 30 cars there. Which I’m guessing was typical for OCC shows given the great size of the country and how sparsely populated it is, relatively speaking.
By significant contrast, OCA shows draw upwards of 300 cars, and there are very few grassy, park-like areas that are willing to turn their beautiful grass over to a car show for a week and risk 300 cars tearing up the grass driving on and off the field all day long. Not to mention the damage that would occur if it rained at all. The whole show field could turn into a mud bath if there were a thunderstorm or two during the week. The OCA shouldn’t risk something like that, and I’m glad they don’t.
Among other things, grass isn’t practical for assigning specific sparking spaces, anyway. The OCA sets up markers on the parking lot showing your exact space. They need to do this to be able to find cars during the judging process. Putting some kind of durable marker down on grass is not likely to be something easy or practical.
Yes, pavement can get hot, but that’s life. There are usually places around the edges of the parking areas with trees and grass where you can set up your tent and chairs, and, if you’re not there to hear the judges criticize your car, so much the better.
This was pretty much the entire show field at the 2009 OCC meet.
Last edited by jaunty75; February 23rd, 2024 at 04:41 AM.
February 23rd, 2024, 08:42 AM
#65
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Birmingham,Alabama
Posts: 4,617
I was in the OCA in the 80’s up until about 2000. I helped run the Nationals in Canada in 94 in London. Back then the OCA absolutely hated anything to do with racing or performance. That’s why the OPC was formed…they were shunned by the OCA.
in 94 in London after the Saturday car show we went for a cruise through downtown Saturday night..the local police knew about it and left us alone. On the Sunday we had the local drag strip booked for the club to grudge race each other.
But, being affiliated with the OCA, some of that didn’t go over well with the OCA hierarchy.
the park we had it at was beautiful, lots of trees for shade and cars on the grass. That’s what a car event should be like..not sitting in a parking lot baking like a piece of meat waiting for a judge to tell you what’s not right with your car….I’ve been to many national meets in the U.S. mostly for the swap meets. The spirit item thing is funny,,first time I heard of if.
Most of the guys I know here gave up on the OCA many years ago because of the disdain for anything performance or racing. If I had of stayed in it , I would have got my 40 year pin already..and, missed all the goofiness 😁
in 94 in London after the Saturday car show we went for a cruise through downtown Saturday night..the local police knew about it and left us alone. On the Sunday we had the local drag strip booked for the club to grudge race each other.
But, being affiliated with the OCA, some of that didn’t go over well with the OCA hierarchy.
the park we had it at was beautiful, lots of trees for shade and cars on the grass. That’s what a car event should be like..not sitting in a parking lot baking like a piece of meat waiting for a judge to tell you what’s not right with your car….I’ve been to many national meets in the U.S. mostly for the swap meets. The spirit item thing is funny,,first time I heard of if.
Most of the guys I know here gave up on the OCA many years ago because of the disdain for anything performance or racing. If I had of stayed in it , I would have got my 40 year pin already..and, missed all the goofiness 😁
February 23rd, 2024, 09:47 AM
#66
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,898
The OCA has embraced racing since 2005 I believe. There was a meeting @ the OCA Nats in Seattle where Nick Filliipedes and I went to ask for the OCA to embrace the racing aspect of the cars which they did. They even put up prize money fo the racers. What you say was true in the past but not amymore as most OCA Nats have a race in conjunction with the meet.
back then I had to explain the History of Oldsmobile in racing..it’s long and rich but was being ignored
Last edited by CANADIANOLDS; February 23rd, 2024 at 10:00 AM.
February 23rd, 2024, 09:50 AM
#67
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Birmingham,Alabama
Posts: 4,617
February 23rd, 2024, 03:17 PM
#69
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Great Lake State: SE MI
Posts: 769
Agreed. Some requirements are so easy to fulfill; why all the fuss?
I like to see a car with a few pieces of period correct literature or promotional material with it; it ads to the appeal. The more rare and unusual the material the better.
As for spirit items, does it kill you to help promote the club a bit? If you really hate OCA and think it's BS, there's no rule in having a big sign with your car saying so. See how that goes for you.
I like to see a car with a few pieces of period correct literature or promotional material with it; it ads to the appeal. The more rare and unusual the material the better.
As for spirit items, does it kill you to help promote the club a bit? If you really hate OCA and think it's BS, there's no rule in having a big sign with your car saying so. See how that goes for you.
February 23rd, 2024, 05:56 PM
#70
Oldsdruid
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Southside Vajenya
Posts: 10,299
The issue is points being deducted for not having them.
I've gotten leery of leaving certain types of support literature with the car. I know people who have had Color & Fabric Albums, Service Guilds/Tech Bulletins, dealer rugs and other expensive items stolen while the car was even briefly unattended. Always liked to believe Oldsmobile people were better than that but turns out we have our share of scum too.
I've gotten leery of leaving certain types of support literature with the car. I know people who have had Color & Fabric Albums, Service Guilds/Tech Bulletins, dealer rugs and other expensive items stolen while the car was even briefly unattended. Always liked to believe Oldsmobile people were better than that but turns out we have our share of scum too.
February 24th, 2024, 06:35 PM
#71
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: OH
Posts: 1,130
February 24th, 2024, 06:59 PM
#72
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 260
From an outsider's perspective, I think points should only be awarded if the "flair" is from the dealership that the car was delivered to when new, and those points should only be used as a tie breaker. The generic crap that floods Ebay should be treated as such..
February 25th, 2024, 04:51 AM
#73
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Harrison, Michigan
Posts: 4,732
It seems there are a lot of people who go to a car show (or nationals whatever) to look at cars, bring cousin Virgil and spend a few hours. Must be to to those people the big billboards, literature etc is cool. Sort of like the crying leaning babies or drive in speakers and food trays... So maybe that is why spirt items are wanted by promoters, etc. I personally don't get it. My buddy had a 63 Riviera and he made up a board with history of the famous GM designer who designed the car, and how the Riv broke ground with it's revolutionary styling, bla, bla. Did I mention, I don't get it? Well I take my car and put it in the driver class- I enjoy myself at the meet and the travel.
February 25th, 2024, 05:52 AM
#74
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: southeastern Michigan
Posts: 14,200
Like what? Are you talking about sales items like booklets and brochures featuring that year's models that would have been available at any dealer that year, or are you talking about documents specific to the vehicle in question that the dealer might have provided? If the latter, what is there besides the sales invoice, perhaps a delivery checklist, and a protect-o-plate, and few people would have these because few of us know what dealer sold our car originally and even fewer would have these documents because they get lost over the years. The owners manual doesn't count here because that's a factory-provided document. If the former, well, that's pretty much what most people do now. Service manuals, etc. are often part of it as well.
February 25th, 2024, 06:07 AM
#75
Old(s) Fart
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 47,356
OH.
MY.
GAWD.
Geeze people, if you really care about more hardware on the shelf to dust, these are free points. Throw your Chassis Service Manual, Oldsmobile hat, and t-shirt from the show into the trunk and voila, you have spirit points. Is this really the biggest problem we have?
I know Brian is trying to develop an objective set of judging criteria, and that's an incredibly difficult and time consuming job, but it's also long overdue. I'll never forget the 1968 "W30" that took best of class at Seven Springs in 2009 that had the emblems and stripes in the wrong place. I judged Senior Preservation at G'burg in 2018 and of the five or six cars with W25 hoods, every one of them had hood stripes located differently (and that was more than factory variations).
MY.
GAWD.
Geeze people, if you really care about more hardware on the shelf to dust, these are free points. Throw your Chassis Service Manual, Oldsmobile hat, and t-shirt from the show into the trunk and voila, you have spirit points. Is this really the biggest problem we have?
I know Brian is trying to develop an objective set of judging criteria, and that's an incredibly difficult and time consuming job, but it's also long overdue. I'll never forget the 1968 "W30" that took best of class at Seven Springs in 2009 that had the emblems and stripes in the wrong place. I judged Senior Preservation at G'burg in 2018 and of the five or six cars with W25 hoods, every one of them had hood stripes located differently (and that was more than factory variations).
February 25th, 2024, 02:18 PM
#78
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Birmingham,Alabama
Posts: 4,617
The Spirit items are no big deal and I'm not for or against them. It's just part of the judging process within the OCA. You put an OCA decal in the window, a JWO and another item in the trunk and you're done.
