1970 F85 W31
October 6th, 2009, 09:24 AM
#41
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It is the answer if you can believe the PPG chart, which I have no reason to doubt. Either the PPG chart or GN Canada is wrong (reference the blue stripe car docs you posted. Under the circumstances, I'd bet GM Canada is wrong.
Further confirmation should be able to be found in the 1970 Product Information Manual (assembly manual) which I don't have (yet) if anyone cares to look it up.
Further confirmation should be able to be found in the 1970 Product Information Manual (assembly manual) which I don't have (yet) if anyone cares to look it up.
October 6th, 2009, 09:27 AM
#42
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Barry, a lot has been discussed here about perceived values, most all put in dollar value of "regular stock" restoration.
But I think that you are on to something with the car having a race history. I (as many do) have a high regard for factory correct cars, but in a case like this, I feel the real value (not so much in terms of dollar value) may be in the restoration and preservation of the race car that it is. Restored as a racer. There doesn't have to be the common obsession with "nut and bolt" perfect that pervades the car hobby at the expense of preserving what is original and in this case, how the car was used.
Just my take.
But I think that you are on to something with the car having a race history. I (as many do) have a high regard for factory correct cars, but in a case like this, I feel the real value (not so much in terms of dollar value) may be in the restoration and preservation of the race car that it is. Restored as a racer. There doesn't have to be the common obsession with "nut and bolt" perfect that pervades the car hobby at the expense of preserving what is original and in this case, how the car was used.
Just my take.
October 6th, 2009, 10:46 AM
#43
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Never the less, I can very well see where there is a fundamental "problem" in the way GM Canada refers to the stripe. The stripe is given as body paint code, when all "usual" references are given in a specific stripe code, which we are finding differs from the body paint code. This could simply be a "manual" error when "whoever" puts this information together.
This is quite minor, but does appear to be consistently wrong.
Bearing in mind that this apparent glitch has nothing to do with how they were made, but rather with how they are reported 25+ years later.
October 6th, 2009, 11:16 AM
#44
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"GM Historical Services"???? Do you mean GM Canada?
Never the less, I can very well see where there is a fundamental "problem" in the way GM Canada refers to the stripe. The stripe is given as body paint code, when all "usual" references are given in a specific stripe code, which we are finding differs from the body paint code. This could simply be a "manual" error when "whoever" puts this information together.
This is quite minor, but does appear to be consistently wrong.
Bearing in mind that this apparent glitch has nothing to do with how they were made, but rather with how they are reported 25+ years later.
Never the less, I can very well see where there is a fundamental "problem" in the way GM Canada refers to the stripe. The stripe is given as body paint code, when all "usual" references are given in a specific stripe code, which we are finding differs from the body paint code. This could simply be a "manual" error when "whoever" puts this information together.
This is quite minor, but does appear to be consistently wrong.
Bearing in mind that this apparent glitch has nothing to do with how they were made, but rather with how they are reported 25+ years later.
Barry, that is the correct information for that VIN number
Thanks and regards:
George Zapora
General Motors of Canada
Vintage Vehicle Services
CA1-160-001
1908 Colonel Sam Drive
Oshawa, ON
Canada L1H 8P7
Phone: 905-440-7636
Fax: 905-440-7644
October 6th, 2009, 11:36 AM
#45
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I appreciate and understand what you've checked. Whatever it is, it runs deeper than just a simple reporting error by the person putting this together. But it still doesn't explain basic problem that all but the white stripe codes don't (or shouldn't) have body paint codes and GM Canada contradicts this. Something is not right somewhere, and I still feel that the GM Canada information is not correct, even if it is "old" records. As much for the fact that it doesn't make sense.
I'd still like to see the '70 PIM, because it should also have the actual manufacturing OEM numbers for (and) the paint codes for the stripes.
At least we're clear on *your* stripes!
I'd still like to see the '70 PIM, because it should also have the actual manufacturing OEM numbers for (and) the paint codes for the stripes.
At least we're clear on *your* stripes!
October 6th, 2009, 11:39 AM
#47
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I appreciate and understand what you've checked. Whatever it is, it runs deeper than just a simple reporting error by the person putting this together. But it still doesn't explain basic problem that all but the white stripe codes don't (or shouldn't) have body paint codes and GM Canada contradicts this. Something is not right somewhere, and I still feel that the GM Canada information is not correct, even if it is "old" records. As much for the fact that it doesn't make sense.
I'd still like to see the '70 PIM, because it should also have the actual manufacturing OEM numbers for (and) the paint codes for the stripes.
At least we're clear on *your* stripes!
I'd still like to see the '70 PIM, because it should also have the actual manufacturing OEM numbers for (and) the paint codes for the stripes.
At least we're clear on *your* stripes!
wmachine...what does PIM stand for?
October 6th, 2009, 12:52 PM
#53
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Product Information Manual 1970 A-Body.
I have B-C for 70-67 and 69 A-body and some other years. Used to have 72 but that got sold.
I have more pages on the colors and stripes but this does give the paint codes for 2 manufactures not that it will do anybody any good.
I have B-C for 70-67 and 69 A-body and some other years. Used to have 72 but that got sold.
I have more pages on the colors and stripes but this does give the paint codes for 2 manufactures not that it will do anybody any good.
October 6th, 2009, 12:56 PM
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I would be interested in seeing some of the earlier stripe codes, if possible, as it seems some of 1969's stripe colors are different mixes despite sharing the same shades, for example.
Last edited by Diego; October 6th, 2009 at 02:08 PM. Reason: wanted to make clearer
October 6th, 2009, 01:28 PM
#55
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Thanks, H/O. Those paint charts are exactly what I'm talking about.
Barry, this confirms the PPG charts, and as you can see, only the white stripe is the same white as the body color, and the rest of the stripes are not the same as the the body paint. And the fact that white *is* the same paint for the body and stripe shows that unlike the wheel paints, the stripe paints *can* be the same as the body color, but except for the white, they are not.
So I have no doubt now that the GM Canada records are just not correct in this respect.
Barry, this confirms the PPG charts, and as you can see, only the white stripe is the same white as the body color, and the rest of the stripes are not the same as the the body paint. And the fact that white *is* the same paint for the body and stripe shows that unlike the wheel paints, the stripe paints *can* be the same as the body color, but except for the white, they are not.
So I have no doubt now that the GM Canada records are just not correct in this respect.
October 6th, 2009, 02:12 PM
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How about George's email? Or send him this link? They've got a great resource there and it would be a shame to let a transgression such as this pervert the Olds hobbyist.
I am reminded of a thread on ROP last year where a guy was restoring a gold '70. If I recall correctly, he was repainting with black or white stripes because he felt the gold wouldn't be seen. I suggested to him the gold was a different mix than the gold on his car, and he got very angry because it was "his" thread and he didn't want the hijack. This is when I learned more about this stuff and the misinformation out there . . . although the misinformation seems to be more about inferring stuff rather than something like GM of Canada mislabeling stuff. As I'm not truly an Olds guy except through ownership, it's harder for me to keep straight, but I know I arrived at this conclusion with Brian E. (BlackGold on ROP) who knows a lot of stuff.
I am reminded of a thread on ROP last year where a guy was restoring a gold '70. If I recall correctly, he was repainting with black or white stripes because he felt the gold wouldn't be seen. I suggested to him the gold was a different mix than the gold on his car, and he got very angry because it was "his" thread and he didn't want the hijack. This is when I learned more about this stuff and the misinformation out there . . . although the misinformation seems to be more about inferring stuff rather than something like GM of Canada mislabeling stuff. As I'm not truly an Olds guy except through ownership, it's harder for me to keep straight, but I know I arrived at this conclusion with Brian E. (BlackGold on ROP) who knows a lot of stuff.
October 6th, 2009, 02:22 PM
#57
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Black is the second body color used as a stripe color in addition to white!
Stripe colors could be mixed and matched as they were only suggested combos but you would have to have a contact such as a zone rep to make something like that happen.
The norm is as listed in the manuals and I didn't see much deviation from that in the last 30 some odd years, outside of factory show cars, press cars and prototypes.
Stripe colors could be mixed and matched as they were only suggested combos but you would have to have a contact such as a zone rep to make something like that happen.
The norm is as listed in the manuals and I didn't see much deviation from that in the last 30 some odd years, outside of factory show cars, press cars and prototypes.
October 6th, 2009, 02:26 PM
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To specify a stripe that didn't exist? I have doubts that could happen.
October 6th, 2009, 02:34 PM
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As far as I know the customer would have to work within the colors offered by the factory that year. By talking to zone reps and factory workers this would be done on the line.
But I am not the last word on this subject and I would never infer to that.
Also remember that in 1970 and other years a stripe delete was available.
But I am not the last word on this subject and I would never infer to that.
Also remember that in 1970 and other years a stripe delete was available.
October 6th, 2009, 03:42 PM
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This conversation is very interesting. One thing that comes to mind is that Holiday Chev Olds Ltd. here in the 'Peg, was our "GM Performance Dealership". You had a younger DK (dealers kid), running the sales dept, who was big into drag racing the dealership's race car (probably in Stock or SStock) and promoting GM's performance vehicles. This car was ordered specifically for racing. The dealership had some inside connections because of their commitment to racing. I worked at new car dealerships for 24 years. Six of them as a tech and 18 as a sales rep/business manager. I have seen many interesting things happen that were special deals because of the dealership, dealer principal, sales manager, service manager, so I have learned never say never about these matters.
October 6th, 2009, 05:07 PM
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who told you that?
Olds was bringing the cars to them,they didnt need to ask for them.
nothing to order for these cars to specifically go racing,unless it was a stripper,which Olds probably sent them.
most dealers did the add on stuff in house,like bigger gears etc.and had the motor sent out for building.
after they were raced,they were put right back out on the lot,probably with a service replacement motor,because 99% of them were blown up.
October 6th, 2009, 10:17 PM
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who told you that?
Olds was bringing the cars to them,they didnt need to ask for them.
nothing to order for these cars to specifically go racing,unless it was a stripper,which Olds probably sent them.
most dealers did the add on stuff in house,like bigger gears etc.and had the motor sent out for building.
after they were raced,they were put right back out on the lot,probably with a service replacement motor,because 99% of them were blown up.
Olds was bringing the cars to them,they didnt need to ask for them.
nothing to order for these cars to specifically go racing,unless it was a stripper,which Olds probably sent them.
most dealers did the add on stuff in house,like bigger gears etc.and had the motor sent out for building.
after they were raced,they were put right back out on the lot,probably with a service replacement motor,because 99% of them were blown up.
October 7th, 2009, 04:05 AM
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As far as I know the customer would have to work within the colors offered by the factory that year. By talking to zone reps and factory workers this would be done on the line.
But I am not the last word on this subject and I would never infer to that.
Also remember that in 1970 and other years a stripe delete was available.
But I am not the last word on this subject and I would never infer to that.
Also remember that in 1970 and other years a stripe delete was available.
So that's where I erred! Instead of ordering a Black 70 W31 with "Black" stripes, I should have ordered a "stripe delete!" Black W31.
(I was told that there wasn't a "stripe delete" option.)
October 7th, 2009, 04:36 AM
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October 7th, 2009, 04:49 AM
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Some of my friends are big Olds fans and have owned their cars since high school back in the late '60's and very early '70's. One has a 1967 442 Conv't with a 4 speed, the other a 1970 442 Conv't clone. Both of these guys remember this car being bought by a buddy of the DK. This friend of the dealer's son was involved in drag racing before hand, but now had purchased this new W31 just before racing started on the May long weekend (third weekend of May) of 1970. My friends remember the car because they lived in the area and still do. There are a few more buddies of this group of guys who own 1969 to 1971 Cutlass 442's that they bought back when they were 16 to 18 years old. My W31 car was sold by the first owner to another fellow who owned a service station/ garage, and he raced the car as well. It sat on Portage Ave. (one of our main cruisin' streets) all week and the was at the track on weekends. I will see my buddies this Thursday evening at our scrimmage hockey and will bring up the stripe issue with them. Hopefully they will remember the car as it was when it was new.
)Among you and your friend, I don't know how much stripe info will be collectively known and/or remembered. Knowing how things were back then, even among those heavily involved, very few ever knew about the ins and outs of stripe details on the new cars. It just wasn't something worth paying attention to. And the "hot" cars were rarely kept totally stock.
But as far as the stripe color goes on your car, its a lock as to exactly what have/had.
October 7th, 2009, 04:51 AM
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October 7th, 2009, 10:25 AM
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Quote: Barry, I very seriously suggest you put down everything you can in writing being very honest about what is remembered. And get statements from your friends too. Sure, it is a different form of documentation, but it is still documentation that would fade and disappear with time. Our cars can be immortal even if we can't be. Video "interviews" burned to DVD would work quite well too. (I must say here your buddy with the '67 has good taste!)
Among you and your friend, I don't know how much stripe info will be collectively known and/or remembered. Knowing how things were back then, even among those heavily involved, very few ever knew about the ins and outs of stripe details on the new cars. It just wasn't something worth paying attention to. And the "hot" cars were rarely kept totally stock.
"But as far as the stripe color goes on your car, its a lock as to exactly what have/had."
wmachine, would you elaborate on your last sentence in the above message please? I'm still not 100% sure about this stripe, but you seem to be.
Among you and your friend, I don't know how much stripe info will be collectively known and/or remembered. Knowing how things were back then, even among those heavily involved, very few ever knew about the ins and outs of stripe details on the new cars. It just wasn't something worth paying attention to. And the "hot" cars were rarely kept totally stock.
"But as far as the stripe color goes on your car, its a lock as to exactly what have/had."
wmachine, would you elaborate on your last sentence in the above message please? I'm still not 100% sure about this stripe, but you seem to be.
October 7th, 2009, 11:37 AM
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Yes, I am 100% sure with your white stripe color.
When we look at all of the sources for *white* paint stripes, they all indicate the same paint. But not with all the other color stripes. The problem is that GM Canada refers to body color codes when referring to stripe colors. But white is the only color where that is valid.
So you are safe (meaning it is clear what exactly what color you have) with your white color stripe, but it does seem that GM Canada is not correct referring to stripe colors with body color paint codes.
Okay?
When we look at all of the sources for *white* paint stripes, they all indicate the same paint. But not with all the other color stripes. The problem is that GM Canada refers to body color codes when referring to stripe colors. But white is the only color where that is valid.
So you are safe (meaning it is clear what exactly what color you have) with your white color stripe, but it does seem that GM Canada is not correct referring to stripe colors with body color paint codes.
Okay?
October 7th, 2009, 01:31 PM
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I just spoke to my hockey pal who I mentioned previously. He remembers the car from new with white stripes, and slotted mags with slicks, shortly after it was purchased. The car still has the slotted aluminum wheels, and the original paint under the trunk lid which is rust free. It looks like it was indeed an Astro Blue car with white stripes. If I can scare up any pictures of the car from it's early days, I will try to post them. :-)
October 7th, 2009, 07:34 PM
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surprised no one has mentioned this before, but at least Barry hinted at it. we want some pics. who cares that it's in pieces or has been repainted.If you and friends have known this since day one, then you need to start asking around to see if anyone has any pics from it's racing days. Thats another way to document the cars history and prove it's background. It may or may not add value to the car, but if you have no intention on selling it who cares what it's worth before starting a restoration or returning it back to it's as raced configuration. If you are interested in selling, then you have more documentation that I'm sure the new owner would be estatic to have.Diego, I believe Dave H has 68, 69 and 70 PIMs. The real ones, not the poor copies that the restoration houses now sell. I got a copy of a real 70 PIM. REAL nice CRISP and CLEAR illustrations. When I do a 70 it'll come in real handy. Now only if I can get the same thing for 69 ....
October 21st, 2009, 02:47 PM
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October 21st, 2009, 05:27 PM
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*Most* of the times, the special order colors got the dashes on the the data tag.
I don't know why some do and some don't, or why a dash was used instead of the number. I'm guessing it was used as a result of scheduling reasons.
I don't know why some do and some don't, or why a dash was used instead of the number. I'm guessing it was used as a result of scheduling reasons.
