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It's an alleged four speed "W-30" with A/C, power brakes, and every single option offered that year. The $38K current bid probably reflects what it's worth. A real one (which wouldn't have A/C or PB) would be an order of magnitude higher in price.
There certainly is an art to walking the narrow path between making a car sound appealing, and not lying.
The 455ci V8 features “F” casting marks on the cylinder heads
This is either an odd way of saying F heads, or a polite way of saying other heads with doctored cast letters. I think the latter. At least it's not a Cutlass.
It's an alleged four speed "W-30" with A/C, power brakes, and every single option offered that year. The $38K current bid probably reflects what it's worth. A real one (which wouldn't have A/C or PB) would be an order of magnitude higher in price.
it's an original automatic converted to a 4 spd...hence my reference to "not all #'s matching. "
This is either an odd way of saying F heads, or a polite way of saying other heads with doctored cast letters. I think the latter. At least it's not a Cutlass.
Yeah, I thought that too, but the casting numbers are correct. Of course, F-heads can be bolted onto any block.
Just for the sake of discussion, since this isn't a sale ad here, if one took either a manual w-30, or an engine set up like one, same cam, etc, and hung A/C and power brakes on it, what would occur in operation?
I imagine it could:
1. Throw the AC compressor belt.
2. Cause the AC controls to go to the settings that low vacuum would cause (which I think means the "vent" selection would go to "floor / defrost" until vacuum came back after you let off the throttle.)
3. You'd get less vacuum assisted pumps out of the booster before it went starved for vacuum and the pedal got hard.
I'm not sure how much of it was Olds just being careful.
Just for the sake of discussion, since this isn't a sale ad here, if one took either a manual w-30, or an engine set up like one, same cam, etc, and hung A/C and power brakes on it, what would occur in operation?
I imagine it could:
1. Throw the AC compressor belt.
2. Cause the AC controls to go to the settings that low vacuum would cause (which I think means the "vent" selection would go to "floor / defrost" until vacuum came back after you let off the throttle.)
3. You'd get less vacuum assisted pumps out of the booster before it went starved for vacuum and the pedal got hard.
I'm not sure how much of it was Olds just being careful.
The problems are #2 and 3. The vacuum operated vents wouldn't work and the power booster wouldn't boost. I doubt you'd throw the A/C belt. The MT 455 had the same redline as the AT 455. I'd worry more about throwing rods.
The bigger question is, if you are outfitting a car for max performance, why are you handicapping it with the weight of A/C and other power options?
Because people are dumb. My thoughts were just the engineering exercise of what-ifs. That must be a hellacious cam; the one someone stuck in my H/O has no issue with AC and PB.
Because people are dumb. My thoughts were just the engineering exercise of what-ifs. That must be a hellacious cam; the one someone stuck in my H/O has no issue with AC and PB.
The 1972 VIN U cars got the 258/272 deg cam with 44 deg overlap. The MT 70 W-30 got the 328/328 cam with 108 deg overlap. Just a touch of difference.
Even a 1970 W-30 with AT got the 285/287 cam with 57 deg overlap (as did every other AT 442 that year).
The 1972 VIN U cars got the 258/272 deg cam with 44 deg overlap. The MT 70 W-30 got the 328/328 cam with 108 deg overlap. Just a touch of difference.
Even a 1970 W-30 with AT got the 285/287 cam with 57 deg overlap (as did every other AT 442 that year).
Yes, I don't have a stock U cam, and I don't know what the one is in it. I don't think it's anywhere near the 328 cam.
Almost any camshaft regardless of specs will support vacuum operated accessories....at least once. The question is how long it will take for the vacuum level to recover to a point where the power brakes function again, the headlight doors stay closed, climate control works again, etc.
Olds and other manufacturers of engines with rowdy camshafts have to carefully consider potential warranty claims and customer satisfaction. If there is any possibility of a option or accessory combination causing costly warranty work or customer complaints (or possible property damage) then they won’t offer it.
I don't think that I have ever written anything negative about any car on this site. I was interested in purchasing this car. The seller was asking $92K. I spoke with the seller and the seller firmly believed that his car is a W30. His "story" was the car was originally a W30 automatic transmission and insisted that the transmission was switched at the dealer from an automatic to a 4 speed, to accommodate a buyer. I asked to see the original OW transmission and the seller did not have the OW transmission. I asked to see the broadcast card to see W30, since the build date was post 1969. This car is an 06B build date and no broadcast card was available. The owner also told me that he had never been under the seat looking for a broadcast card. Realizing the owner did not have documentation, I asked for the axle code, the owner couldn't find it. The distributor is not the correct number. I was unable to obtain the carburetor number. I asked for the VIN derivative and the seller responded "seriously?" The owner relied completely on his version of a W30 and the white "authentication sheet" below to support that his car is a W30. (red inner wells, "F' heads, etc.) Read the sheet yourself. The more I asked, the angrier the seller got.
His position was there was "nothing to prove that his car was not a W30."
I remember the car and my experience with this seller. My notes show the trim plate as a 19B paint code, and the VIN M385763. The driver's side fender is a 1971 fender. I could not see the passenger side fender. The key didn't open the the trunk, but according to the seller, the car has an automatic trunk release. The clock did not work. I also remember the wing on the rear of a convertible.
The car is located in Phoenix, Arizona. The owners name is Mike Auclair. I have his telephone number and email address. I discussed all of my finding's with a well known, knowledgeable member of our site, who knows 1970-1972 442's well! We both agreed that the seller's story was one of the best.
I would have bought the car as a factory air, 442 convertible with W30 parts. The seller rejected my offer. Frankly, the seller would have an easier sale, advertising his car as a 442 with W30 parts.
My notes reflect this occurred approximately a little over a year from today.
Last edited by twilightblue28A; Mar 18, 2021 at 02:10 PM.
I don't think that I have ever written anything negative about any car on this site. I was interested in purchasing this car. The seller was asking $92K. I spoke with the seller and the seller firmly believed that his car is a W30. His "story" was the car was originally a W30 automatic transmission and insisted that the transmission was switched at the dealer from an automatic to a 4 speed, to accommodate a buyer. I asked to see the original OW transmission and the seller did not have the OW transmission. I asked to see the broadcast card to see W30, since the build date was post 1969. This car is an 06B build date and no broadcast card was available. The owner also told me that he had never been under the seat looking for a broadcast card. Realizing the owner did not have documentation, I asked for the axle code, the owner couldn't find it. The distributor is not the correct number. I was unable to obtain the carburetor number. I asked for the VIN derivative and the seller responded "seriously?" The owner relied completely on his version of a W30 and the white "authentication sheet" below to support that his car is a W30. (red inner wells, "F' heads, etc.) Read the sheet yourself. The more I asked, the angrier the seller got.
His position was there was "nothing to prove that his car was not a W30."
I remember the car and my experience with this seller. My notes show the trim plate as a 19B paint code, and the VIN M385763. The driver's side fender is a 1971 fender. I could not see the passenger side fender. The key didn't open the the trunk, but according to the seller, the car has an automatic trunk release. The clock did not work. I also remember the wing on the rear of a convertible.
The car is located in Phoenix, Arizona. The owners name is Mike Auclair. I have his telephone number and email address. I discussed all of my finding's with a well known, knowledgeable member of our site, who knows 1970-1972 442's well! We both agreed that the seller's story was one of the best.
I would have bought the car as a factory air, 442 convertible with W30 parts. The seller rejected my offer. Frankly, the seller would have an easier sale, advertising his car as a 442 with W30 parts.
My notes reflect this occurred approximately a little over a year from today.
This is yet another case of people who don't understand the concept of "necessary but not sufficient". I also find it hilarious when people print out the Olds FAQ and hold that up as "proof".
This is yet another case of people who don't understand the concept of "necessary but not sufficient". I also find it hilarious when people print out the Olds FAQ and hold that up as "proof".
Joe P,
I hope that you are not suggesting for one (1) minute that I don't understand the concept of "necessary but not sufficient" and that I believed the seller, Mike Auclair's, "story." The seller would have a lot more credibility if among his many photographs on Bring a Trailer, the seller would simply post photographs of the vin derivatives of the engine and "OW" automatic transmission.
There is a photo of the motor vin. (there are 150 photos on the listing) To me it looks like it might be "too parallel" to the bottom of the pad but maybe not. Looks like it could have original broach marks on the pad but the pic quality is not that great
Compared to the stamp on my 68 455:
The trans tag is pictured but no vin stamp shown. The way I read the add, they found an "OW" trans to go with the car. not necessarily the original trans from the car.
Last edited by Loaded68W34; Mar 18, 2021 at 05:09 PM.
There is a photo of the motor vin. (there are 150 photos on the listing) To me it looks like it might be "too parallel" to the bottom of the pad but I am not sure.
The trans tag is pictured but no vin stamp shown. The way I read the add, they found an "OW" trans to go with the car. not necessarily the original trans from the car.
Thanks for the engine vin. I know when I spoke to the seller about thirteen (13) months ago, I asked for the engine vin derivative and I was met with "seriously?" (Please see post 15). I then specifically asked for a photograph of the "OW" automatic transmission. The seller replied that he did not have the original "OW" automatic transmission and the dealer who converted the car from automatic to 4 speed must have discarded the "OW" years ago. My purpose for asking was to see if the vin derivatives tied together. Now, thirteen (13) months later, the seller is displaying an "OW" transmission, without the vin derivative. You would think that the vin derivative would be significant to support the sellers "story." I think the seller learned a lot from me.........LOL
BTW, besides the obvious carb re-stamp (256X) which shouldn't be on an auto car anyway, there's another issue. He says he has the original "OW" trans - see the tag. Yes I see it, but it's stamped incorrect. "OW-70" vs correct "70-OW" Again, it's a nice clown car, but don't try to say it's legit based on bs.
It would seem to me anyone trying to sell a high dollar car wouldn’t have any problem with the effort of document the car is worth with the asking price. Since this seller is dragging his feet and making up excuses, he is either; A, well aware the car isn’t as advertised, or B, isnt exactly sure and doesn’t want to uncover evidence to prove it isn’t what he claims.
As for the transmission, that appears to be a empty case? If so, all the special W-30 calibration parts are gone. You can buy reproduction transmission tags. And as you pointed out, without the vin stamped in the case proving it belonged to the car, that case is nothing special, and does nothing to prove the car is as claimed.
I seriously doubt any dealer would take apart a car and swap a transmission to please any buyer. Unless they buyer was willing to pay the labor to swap the transmission (which I seriously doubt) a swap from a automatic to a manual is very labor intensive, and would probably eliminate a big chunk of the profit.
Since a lot of the W-30 parts are missing, I’m betting this isn’t worth anywhere near what he is asking.
It would seem to me anyone trying to sell a high dollar car wouldn’t have any problem with the effort of document the car is worth with the asking price. Since this seller is dragging his feet and making up excuses, he is either; A, well aware the car isn’t as advertised, or B, isnt exactly sure and doesn’t want to uncover evidence to prove it isn’t what he claims.
As for the transmission, that appears to be a empty case? If so, all the special W-30 calibration parts are gone. You can buy reproduction transmission tags. And as you pointed out, without the vin stamped in the case proving it belonged to the car, that case is nothing special, and does nothing to prove the car is as claimed.
I seriously doubt any dealer would take apart a car and swap a transmission to please any buyer. Unless they buyer was willing to pay the labor to swap the transmission (which I seriously doubt) a swap from a automatic to a manual is very labor intensive, and would probably eliminate a big chunk of the profit.
Since a lot of the W-30 parts are missing, I’m betting this isn’t worth anywhere near what he is asking.
Please read the seller's rebuttal on BAT.
I will appreciate members leaving comments on BAT. Currently, it'sTwilightblue28A (I use a different screen name on BaT) vs the seller.
Thank you!
Last edited by twilightblue28A; Mar 19, 2021 at 08:01 AM.
I don't think that I have ever written anything negative about any car on this site. I was interested in purchasing this car. The seller was asking $92K. I spoke with the seller and the seller firmly believed that his car is a W30. His "story" was the car was originally a W30 automatic transmission and insisted that the transmission was switched at the dealer from an automatic to a 4 speed, to accommodate a buyer. I asked to see the original OW transmission and the seller did not have the OW transmission. I asked to see the broadcast card to see W30, since the build date was post 1969. This car is an 06B build date and no broadcast card was available. The owner also told me that he had never been under the seat looking for a broadcast card. Realizing the owner did not have documentation, I asked for the axle code, the owner couldn't find it. The distributor is not the correct number. I was unable to obtain the carburetor number. I asked for the VIN derivative and the seller responded "seriously?" The owner relied completely on his version of a W30 and the white "authentication sheet" below to support that his car is a W30. (red inner wells, "F' heads, etc.) Read the sheet yourself. The more I asked, the angrier the seller got.
His position was there was "nothing to prove that his car was not a W30."
I remember the car and my experience with this seller. My notes show the trim plate as a 19B paint code, and the VIN M385763. The driver's side fender is a 1971 fender. I could not see the passenger side fender. The key didn't open the the trunk, but according to the seller, the car has an automatic trunk release. The clock did not work. I also remember the wing on the rear of a convertible.
The car is located in Phoenix, Arizona. The owners name is Mike Auclair. I have his telephone number and email address. I discussed all of my finding's with a well known, knowledgeable member of our site, who knows 1970-1972 442's well! We both agreed that the seller's story was one of the best.
I would have bought the car as a factory air, 442 convertible with W30 parts. The seller rejected my offer. Frankly, the seller would have an easier sale, advertising his car as a 442 with W30 parts.
My notes reflect this occurred approximately a little over a year from today.
2 things 1. just what on this list is w30 specific?in effect could only be w-30.2.in the BAT ad i see no mention it is in fact a w-30.ad says it has w-30 badging but does not claim w-30
The red fender wells, the F heads, and the aluminum intake for the 455 are w-30 specific items, but they are all bolt on. The OW transmission, I believe, for automatics.
I don't know of a way to conclusively prove a W-30 pre-72, as documentation can be faked, and parts can be bolted on. Best I could do is a gut feeling based on documentation, and undisturbed, original parts. A redone car is even harder.
I don't know of a way to conclusively prove a W-30 pre-72, as documentation can be faked, and parts can be bolted on. Best I could do is a gut feeling based on documentation, and undisturbed, original parts. A redone car is even harder.
A real OW trans (as opposed to one with a questionable tag) that has a matching VIN derivative is as close to "proof" as you can get on a 1970 without a broadcast card, invoice, or GM of Canada documentation. Of course, you can get blank OW tags.
I’d call it a pretty nice original color 1970 4-4-2 convertible. With ram air hood and posi traction. And some crappy 8 tracks. My 8-track collection was magnificent, and sounded pretty good to me back then.
Anyone want to help? The seller is now claiming that he sold the car three times and bought it back twice. Appreciate if a member can make a comment on BAT that 993442conv had his conversation regarding your car with Mike Auclair. Coincidence? Do you know Mike Auclair? Thanks
I think it's well established now for the bidders that it isn't a true W-30, and just has the bolt-on's (and not even the correct ones at that). If the bidders want to keep bidding up a 442 conv, then they will.
I have a question regarding the Trans tag. I was under the assumption that the 4 digit stamp is the sequence number of units built in that configuration. Considering that there were roughly 3500 total W30s built for 1970, and a portion of those were 4 speeds, doesnt that make this tag way out of the range for OW transmissions built?
