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I agree with Joe, many people with more dollars than sense. Lots of us have seen this car often over the last year or two for sale, ironically now a restoration shop has it - a 2300 mile survivor being sold by a restoration shop. Hmmmm
That being said it’s a rolling time capsule/ museum piece, and each of us on here would be pleasantly reminded of our first four-speed 442 if we had a chance to drive it. Super low mileage, close ratio M21, W27 rear. Documentation looks strong.
My first four-speed 442 was a strato bucket console car - not familiar with ....bench seating for five?
Crazy pile of seatbelts upfront - perhaps extra 2 are for shoulder belts.
Last edited by vCode442; Jan 20, 2020 at 07:31 PM.
My first four-speed 442 was a strato bucket console car - not familiar with ....bench seating for five?
Crazy pile of seatbelts upfront - perhaps extra 2 are for shoulder belts.
The shoulder belts are completely separate from the lap belts, so yes, that is correct. A bucket seat car still has two female ends on each inboard side.
I believe the car/ad is bogus. The last time it was discussed on CO, there was 2,335 miles on it. The window sticker and dealer sales sheet do NOT show it was ever ordered or sold with the W-27.
Vader, curious is this photo you posted the same car in question? If so it looks like the motor is out, The selling shop has a video on YouTube discussing how they “freshened up” the car. Not sure how yanking the motor on a 2300 mile survivor would be classified as freshening up, but maybe.
Vader, curious is this photo you posted the same car in question? If so it looks like the motor is out, The selling shop has a video on YouTube discussing how they “freshened up” the car. Not sure how yanking the motor on a 2300 mile survivor would be classified as freshening up, but maybe.
Read the other threads about this car, particularly the "umolested" claims, since the engine not only has new paint but also un-notched valve covers. And an "unmolested" W-30 motor won't have a blue lifting loop on the intake.
I wouldn't want to be the middle person sitting in the front with it having a stick.
I loved it when my girl friend sat next to me in my 69, bench seat M-21.....but that BBO 400 long stroke could not get out of it's own way. Car was a dog.
This car is not bogus. In fact, on March 5, 2020, I flew from Atlanta to Minneapolis to inspect the car as the car is now located outside Minneapolis. Unfortunately, I was only in the presence of the car about 20-minutes before I became embroiled in a dispute with the seller because of the number stamped on the oil filler tube, and when the seller disagreed with me regarding this stamping he stated in so many words that he didn't have time for me to vet the car. At that point, I walked out.
The following is what I learned from the brief meeting.
Ø The seller has reduced the car about $7,800 from what he paid for it at Barret-Jackson (BJ) under the pretense he needs to reduce the number of cars he owns. While the carburetor number is correct, the date is not, the distributor number too is incorrect, and the engine number on the oil filler tube is not correct. The heads, exhaust, water pump, and manifold numbers were verified correct.
Ø There is no documentation on the W27 rear end. According to the Restore A Muscle Car(RAMC) representative who was present when I met the seller, the original owner installed the W27 option himself, purchasing the rear end from the dealer when the car was ordered, not the factory. Of course, that statement is complete hearsay as there is no documentation to support the statement. Furthermore, this response only undermines the fact that the car is not completely numbers matching as so stated in the advertisement.
Ø I’m led to believe the seller has never read the ad written by RAMC because when I made the statement the carburetor date was incorrect he asked the RAMC rep if this was noted in the ad. I spoke out of turn and said: “it was not.”
Ø The list of incomplete odometer statements, the odometer itself, and a verbal statement by someone that saw the car at BJ (a noted personality with Olds expertise), who by the way, did not perform a close inspection of the car, nor did that person give a signed statement, is the basis for the 2300-mile conspiracy. If one looks closely at the odometer statements and the number of owners they will determine the statements do not cover all the previous owners, and one statement is not legalized by Notary, nor dated. Understand as well there is nothing in the odometer statements telling us the Notary put the signers under an oath and that the documents contain true and correct information, hence we can only surmise the Notary verified the signatures. Plus, one odometer statement requires only what the odometer reads at the time of sale, not requesting the seller pledge as to the actual miles on the car. To me, it is apparent the odometer in the past has been inoperative, disconnected or both.
Ø It is my opinion this car is not a special-order car as the seller and RAMC rep state because if one inspects the dealer’s pre-delivery form the buyer’s name is noticeable absent from the form, while all other information is dutifully filled in. This coupled with the fact the dealer’s predelivery form is dated April 15, 1970, while the dealer’s settlement paper is dated June 25, 1970. Now how many buyers would leave this wonderful, special ordered car at the dealer for 71-days before picking it up?
Ø The car’s exterior presents well from what little I saw of it, as does the engine compartment that I viewed. I have no other input regarding the interior, underbelly, trunk, or rear end areas of the car because I was not allowed the time to completely vet the automobile.
Ø The representative from RAMC called me later in the day apologizing for the unpleasant encounter, and for all the expense I incurred to see the car. During this conversation he stated to me the engine had been completely rebuilt by RAMC (he called the office to find out more information). Earlier that day, he stated the engine had only been out to have the oil pan replaced and while out painted. This individual also stated the buyers he deals with usually writes a check and never inspects, obviously something the current owner did when buying the car at BJ.
The current advertisement written by RAMC pushes the car as a full, numbers matching piece of history and maintained to reflect its “as sold” configuration all of which is simply not correct. The above statements prove the ad as false, misleading and untrue. Just as similar, the BJ descriptive verbiage from 2018 contains much of the same truth decay.
Prior to retirement I was employed as a certified internal auditor. This certification requires candidates to hold at a minimum a bachelor’s degree from an accredited university or college in the field of finance, accounting or business administration, have two years of work experience as an internal auditor, and pass a four-part standardized test administered by the Institute of Internal Auditors. Additionally, the individual is tasked with adhering to the highest ethical code, advocating competency, capacity, trust, and truthfulness. I say this because I attempted to write this assessment as accurately as possible and without bias towards me, seller or representative. I submit these statements in hopes my summation will help someone else down the road and if considering this automobile for purchase.
This car is not bogus. In fact, on March 5, 2020, I flew from Atlanta to Minneapolis to inspect the car as the car is now located outside Minneapolis. Unfortunately, I was only in the presence of the car about 20-minutes before I became embroiled in a dispute with the seller because of the number stamped on the oil filler tube, and when the seller disagreed with me regarding this stamping he stated in so many words that he didn't have time for me to vet the car. At that point, I walked out.
The following is what I learned from the brief meeting.
Ø The seller has reduced the car about $7,800 from what he paid for it at Barret-Jackson (BJ) under the pretense he needs to reduce the number of cars he owns. While the carburetor number is correct, the date is not, the distributor number too is incorrect, and the engine number on the oil filler tube is not correct. The heads, exhaust, water pump, and manifold numbers were verified correct.
Ø There is no documentation on the W27 rear end. According to the Restore A Muscle Car(RAMC) representative who was present when I met the seller, the original owner installed the W27 option himself, purchasing the rear end from the dealer when the car was ordered, not the factory. Of course, that statement is complete hearsay as there is no documentation to support the statement. Furthermore, this response only undermines the fact that the car is not completely numbers matching as so stated in the advertisement.
Ø I’m led to believe the seller has never read the ad written by RAMC because when I made the statement the carburetor date was incorrect he asked the RAMC rep if this was noted in the ad. I spoke out of turn and said: “it was not.”
Ø The list of incomplete odometer statements, the odometer itself, and a verbal statement by someone that saw the car at BJ (a noted personality with Olds expertise), who by the way, did not perform a close inspection of the car, nor did that person give a signed statement, is the basis for the 2300-mile conspiracy. If one looks closely at the odometer statements and the number of owners they will determine the statements do not cover all the previous owners, and one statement is not legalized by Notary, nor dated. Understand as well there is nothing in the odometer statements telling us the Notary put the signers under an oath and that the documents contain true and correct information, hence we can only surmise the Notary verified the signatures. Plus, one odometer statement requires only what the odometer reads at the time of sale, not requesting the seller pledge as to the actual miles on the car. To me, it is apparent the odometer in the past has been inoperative, disconnected or both.
Ø It is my opinion this car is not a special-order car as the seller and RAMC rep state because if one inspects the dealer’s pre-delivery form the buyer’s name is noticeable absent from the form, while all other information is dutifully filled in. This coupled with the fact the dealer’s predelivery form is dated April 15, 1970, while the dealer’s settlement paper is dated June 25, 1970. Now how many buyers would leave this wonderful, special ordered car at the dealer for 71-days before picking it up?
Ø The car’s exterior presents well from what little I saw of it, as does the engine compartment that I viewed. I have no other input regarding the interior, underbelly, trunk, or rear end areas of the car because I was not allowed the time to completely vet the automobile.
Ø The representative from RAMC called me later in the day apologizing for the unpleasant encounter, and for all the expense I incurred to see the car. During this conversation he stated to me the engine had been completely rebuilt by RAMC (he called the office to find out more information). Earlier that day, he stated the engine had only been out to have the oil pan replaced and while out painted. This individual also stated the buyers he deals with usually writes a check and never inspects, obviously something the current owner did when buying the car at BJ.
The current advertisement written by RAMC pushes the car as a full, numbers matching piece of history and maintained to reflect its “as sold” configuration all of which is simply not correct. The above statements prove the ad as false, misleading and untrue. Just as similar, the BJ descriptive verbiage from 2018 contains much of the same truth decay.
Prior to retirement I was employed as a certified internal auditor. This certification requires candidates to hold at a minimum a bachelor’s degree from an accredited university or college in the field of finance, accounting or business administration, have two years of work experience as an internal auditor, and pass a four-part standardized test administered by the Institute of Internal Auditors. Additionally, the individual is tasked with adhering to the highest ethical code, advocating competency, capacity, trust, and truthfulness. I say this because I attempted to write this assessment as accurately as possible and without bias towards me, seller or representative. I submit these statements in hopes my summation will help someone else down the road and if considering this automobile for purchase.
Based on the paperwork provided in the eBay auction, it shouldn't come as a surprise that the W-27 rear wasn't there when the car left the factory since it's not on the window sticker. With that being said, a buyer could take the rear out of the car, sell it for $15k-$20k, and find a date coded TO 3.91 rear for $1,500.
With regards to being a special order car, it's hard to say without any concrete evidence, but what you've outlined with the dates makes sense. The only thing that makes me question that is the number of miles on the Protect-O-Plate for when the car was put in to service. The POP for this W-30 shows only 00005 miles. You'd think if the car sat on the lot for that many days it would be much higher. As a comparison, my customer ordered '70 W-31 that was built a few weeks before this W-30 shows 00004 miles on the POP and picked up as soon as it hit the dealer's lot. Another one of my W-cars shows 00021 on the POP, and that car sat on the dealer's lot for approximately seven months. Perhaps, potential customers just weren't test driving cars March / April through June?
There's no doubt this car isn't nearly as unmolested as it has been portrayed. I'd want to look at specific wear patterns to assess whether it was a 2,000 mile car or a 20,000 or 200,000 mile car. Did you get a chance to examine the rotors, pads, grime build-up, etc.?
Were there any photos presented of the engine prior to it being pulled? As an owner of a 50 year old survivor W-car, I can attest to the amount of oil and grime that would be everywhere. Unfortunately, the seals just don't hold up. While I'm not sure I would repaint my engine, I wouldn't have an issue with pulling the engine and trans just to reseal them. If the car is presented without those details being shared, then I'd agree with your sentiment that the listing appears to be a bit on the sketchy side.
Lastly, and this is going back to the BJ documents I believe, this car was owned by Dennis Collins out of Dallas. He's frequently on Gas Monkey Garage and likely would be willing to field a call regarding the car. I want to say he's affiliated in some form or fashion to RAMC, too.
Interesting read on this car today from the posts. One possible explanation on the predelivery date to settlement paper date: the original owner didn't actually install the W-27 rear, but instead had the dealership order it, and the car sat there at the dealer waiting for the rear to arrive and be installed. As a production option, it may have taken some time for GM to be able to pull a W-27 rear out of the production orders and be able to ship it to the dealership as a "dealer install". Having worked at GM SPO, and having a wife that worked there for almost 20 years, this is entirely plausible, as I experienced this very scenario while there. We're not talking about a hood, spoiler, or other items that very likely could/would have been available as typical dealer install options. A rear end just isn't a typical "part" that fits into that category.
Also interesting tidbit about Dennis Collins having been a prior owner. My wife had some interaction with him at GM SPO/CCA when Gas Monkey somehow finagled their way into buying some COPO Camaro's. She said he was a very serious car collector and was professional, courteous, and really knew what he was talking about (Richard Rawlins... not so much).
No, there was no chance to inspect rotors and pads. The engine compartment as I stated showed well.
The RAMC rep said the car came to them with the engine out of the car. There are several photographs of the car's engine bay, absent the engine, on this forum.
