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Your opinion of your conduct is probably not shared by many.
just the fact that you’ve managed to get in a pissing contest with two different members on two different threads at the same time speaks volumes about your behavior.
Your opinion of your conduct is probably not shared by many. You are in no position to lecture me about the purpose of any section of this forum, nor are you in any position to lecture me about anything I post, both because of your newness here and because, quite frankly, no one asked you. You may want to think about your posts before you make them; in your small amount of posts, you've gotten in multiple arguments. If you have an issue with what someone posts, you can report the post, or, you can privately and politely PM the person with your concern. You don't get to insult people publicly then hide behind some sort of millennial-style scolding moral high ground. You'll probably end up apologizing for this one, too.
Thanks for quoting me, Ralph, it saves me the time. To wit, Mike told me I was speaking out of my ***, and the other guy told me I was a jerk. I don't tolerate that sort of disrespect, and neither should anyone else.
To quote wisdom of the street: "Don't start none; won't be none."
The occasional negativity and personal attacks on CO is really a turn off and very frustrating. There’s enough of that in the world already. I jump on here for an enjoyable few minutes every day to connect with people that share a love of Oldsmobiles, and other areas of commonality, not for negativity and personal attacks.
I've never driven a '70 Olds vert; is there noticeable wind noise with the construction methods they used?
My ‘71 vert rides very well, with the top and the windows up it’s amazing how little noise there is. A heads up: with the top down limit speed unless top boot is on, the rushing wind over the exposed top creates significant friction / movement between the frame and the canvas top.
Last edited by vCode442; February 19th, 2021 at 11:30 AM.
[QUOTE=tnswt;1320603]The purpose for the buyer feedback section is to write about buyer experiences on this site. I did just that with posts that were sane, sensible, factual, and without hate language. In fact, the other party acknowledged my honesty in handling the complaint, and noted it was a mistake, an honest mistake on their part. It’s regrettable you define that as character assassination.
Just to make things perfectly clear, THAT WAS A CHARACTER ASSASSINATION !!! You didn't buy anything, so you had no buyer experience...you didn't buy the item from me...yet even after an apology from me and an offer to make the deal good, you chose to leave me scorching negative feedback. If you say you can smell the rot on somebody from 1,500 miles away, That is not sane, it is not factual, and it certainly is not without hate language. You know Stephen, like maybe 3 times I've been wanting to really read you off here, started to write, then said screw it, I'd cut you a break. Please get your meds adjusted, or think before you post anymore attacks on members here. THANKS!!! Back to our regular scheduled programming...yes...there's wind noise in convertibles, more so than hard tops.
To wit, Mike told me I was speaking out of my ***, and the other guy told me I was a jerk. I don't tolerate that sort of disrespect, and neither should anyone else.
To quote wisdom of the street: "Don't start none; won't be none."
That is truly unbelievable that people would use such words.
Hello mrolds69! I knew you would know because of your vast knowledge of all things Oldsmobile; even though, you went the long way around to give a response. I won't hold that against you. I trust you are doing well. Regards.
A heads up: with the top down limit speed unless top boot is on, the rushing wind over the exposed top creates significant friction / movement between the frame and the canvas top.
I do understand what you are saying. I learned from just such an experience while boating. The wind darn near took the canvas along with the frame off the boat! Yep, there is a purpose for a boot.
I want to clarify many of the issues surrounding the observations and criticisms of the above referenced car scheduled for sale at Mecum, Glendale, AZ, March 18-20, 2021, identified as lot F118.
Much has been discussed over the authenticity of this car. Again, please click on the attached link for details of the documentation and the equipment described in detail, including, but not limited to: a "W30 convertible with 4-speed in Twilight Blue, all matching numbers. Very rare, one of 96 442 W30 convertibles with 4-speed and has all of its factory sheet metal and original interior. Documented with a total of three unbroken chain of owners. Documentation on this W30 consists of factory Protect-O-Plate in original sleeve, original owner's manual, new vehicle warranty and owner's protection plan, original invoice from Owen Motors of Elkader, Iowa dated 12/24/69, Broadcast Card, pre-delivery and adjustment check sheet and two signed affidavits from salesman who sold car to original owner. All matching numbers including proper part numbers for carburetor, distributor, heads, transmission, rear end, water pump, block, alternator, starter, radiator, pulleys, dipstick, coil, exhaust manifolds, fuel pump and master cylinder. This car has been judged in 2011 by National Oldsmobile Club of America and placed first, which is remarkable as this car is unrestored with one repaint, but impeccably maintained. Also, featured in Muscle Car Review magazine in October 1989."
Much criticism has been made of Mr. Harold Bahis affidavit, which provides detailed first hand knowledge of the above referenced car. Mr. Bahis signed an affidavit January 5, 2007, witnessed by a third party, the notary. The affidavit speaks for itself.
The cars broadcast card has also been called into question. Comments included the car is not a W30 because the broadcast card does not specifically reference W30. Fortunately, a few of our members remembered a discussion on our site in which 1970 convertibles, manufactured in 1969, automatic or manual transmissions, did not identify W30 on the broadcast card. I added a similar comment challenging anyone having a broadcast card meeting the above criteria with W30, to post the broadcast card. To date, I haven't seen any broadcast cards posted, meeting this criteria.
The car is absolutely beautiful and is in mint condition. The original poster began this thread and asked whether the car is really is one (1) of ninety-six (96). He deserves an answer. The car speaks for itself. Notwithstanding the documents, before I spend in excess of $100,000.0 for a car, I would put my eyes on the car, or ask someone knowledgeable to look at the car.
As I had written yesterday, the color is gorgeous and the car is beautiful. Unfortunately, 4 speed W30 cars were not available with air conditioning, a requisite for me.
This 442 may be a good test of prices for a number 1 car in todays economy. Let's follow the car to auction March 18 through March 20, 2021.
Last edited by twilightblue28A; February 19th, 2021 at 07:47 PM.
Good summation, twlightblue28A; you don't have to be a seller to make an observation. The part where I think the narrative runs in the ditch is that part where it is written "the car is unrestored with one repaint." Other than that, it is a good summary. It's just that in my opinion, repainting is restoration work. I hope you soon find the car are looking for.
This thread is exactly why I would never own one of these W-30 convertibles at a W-30 price tag. Real or not there will ALWAYS be doubt to the authenticity. Does it suck for the owner? Well if he paid full W-30 retail, YES
There are plenty of fully documented cars. This car is beautiful. No doubt about that. Nobody denies that. Looks to be done right too.
When you pay huge cash for a car like this it is an investment. You aren't buying it to go run it thru the gears. That investment sure needs papers. I would go thru every part on that car for build dates etc.
The biggest red flag is the repaint and the unrestored comment. Hello if the car was disassembled for a repaint it isn't unrestored. What a bs line. It will get bought though.
When you pay huge cash for a car like this it is an investment. You aren't buying it to go run it thru the gears. That investment sure needs papers.
^^^THIS. I'm sure both the seller and Mecum know what Lee Pearl's car sold for and expect similar results. In that rarefied atmosphere, documentation had better be bulletproof.
Well said Joe, et al, however I do understand Harry’s passion for this car - it must remind him quite vividly of his own record-setting 1970 convertible 4-4-2 that he purchased 50 years ago, one he happily drove hard, 1/4 mile at a time, at Atco and Maple Grove and Cecil county. And maybe even some weekends street racing on Delaware Ave.
Many of us get emotional about that first Oldsmobile we ever owned, especially if we parted with it early on - as I did.
Last edited by vCode442; February 20th, 2021 at 10:16 AM.
This is a beautiful car.
Just an observation... this is an average musclecar to many collectors. Olds, Pontiac, Buick, Chevy, Ford, whatever, just another shiny piece in the museum inventory, which can be enjoyed, shown, part of LLC write offs, offset gains, depreciated, etc. It will be circulated to another collector who will rely on the same paperwork, but now it has another layer of provenance from "so and so's" collection. It's just a toy and money game to some who don't sweat the small stuff. Good advice, especially if a big sale price raises all boats, and awareness.
Passion is one thing, but people need to understand that, when someone is not convinced of the authenticity of a car; they're not shitting on it; they're simply skeptical. It's ok to be skeptical, and people don't need to react like someone shot their dog.
The paperwork is certainly a matter of importance; otherwise, Mr. Bahls would not have become involved in this particular case; in my opinion, his affidavit certainly is an effort by the car owner to reinforce a certain perception about this automobile. Furthermore, it reinforces the idea that the owner(s) have/has been nervous about the absence of concrete W30 documentation.
So that it is understood did Olds begin using a W30 designiation on broadcast cards for convertibles beginning January 1970?
To reiterate, love this car and think it’s beautiful, and would enjoy driving the hell out of it. I own a 4-4-2 to drive, not to trailer, and imagine this one hasn’t been driven much - and won’t be by the new owner.
So here’s my question: do most 1970s have a fitment issue with the top of the grills and the leading edge of the hood near the tongue, or is that gap by design. For my own edification - not bashing, just curious.
That document only states that the owner was surprised by the "White W30 stripes". Never insinuated the buyer did not understand he was ordering a W30. The gentlemen was quite old when he helped to word that affidavit (maybe the buyer meant to special order colored stripes that were not white, who knows). It would be easy to get things a bit confused. My guess is that salesman would never forget the one and only 70-442 W30 convertible with 4 speed that tiny dealer likely ever delivered. That said, I could be wrong. I would bet he still has family alive today that remembers him signing that paper, it true.
Both of the pics you posted show what looks like "excessive" gaps/fitment/mis-alignment...could be a number of factors involved:
>Factory fitment/quality variations - Who knows?? Were all the OAI hoods made equally, etc? Seems more likely than not.
>"Tolerance Stacking" explanation (non-factory created problems) - Like tolerance stacking in engine machining and building, apply the same thing to the various front end parts on these cars....but with the problems occurring after the car was sold on through any restoration work:
1) "Saggy" 1970 442 grills - a common problem due to their vertical "hanging" location with bolts holding each END and nothing supporting the middle of the grills.
2) Damaged hoods improperly repaired - we all know that nose damage is very common on these hoods..which leads me to...
3) Radiator support damage - lots of rad supports have experienced collision damage and have been pushed up somewhat in the middle of the support. You really need to have a nice undamaged rad support to match up any straightening/repair efforts with or else that work can be a "shot in the dark". How much time (ie - $) was spent at a shop trying to test fit, etc.? Was the shop even aware or looking for damage which can sometimes be very subtle on this commonly "overlooked" large front end piece.
4)Rad support "Nose Piece" damage - VERY common and if present, was it really straightened out to the correct shape? These things typically get pushed in STRAIGHT ACROSS and many folks assume the bend line (being fairly straight and even) is a factory bend/feature. Nose pieces can be bent downwards as well...which may be the case in both pics. Getting them back to their correct shape is a time consuming process....been there, done that.
5) Both those cars in your pic appear to NOT HAVE the factory "defect" on the D side chrome hockey stick. The originals always seem to be a bit low relative to the chrome diecast eyebrow on the D side fender. So....maybe more evidence of "repairs" that weren't needed with some resulting effect on other parts of the front end.
6) Hood "tooth" problems - these can be jacked up and out of sorts as well. They distort when overtightend and the corresponding lip on the hood metal skin can also be out of sorts.
Likely a combo of any of the above on those cars. It's rare for a shop to take the time to really check all these parts via mockup and test fitting and/or against known good parts...time consuming, they're not aware of it and/or customer won't pay for all that extra time.
I checked a car here (cursory check) with a used D side grill and the top of the grill lines up pretty evenly with the bottom edge of the hood. I'll check it tomorrow with a chrome hockey stick in place.
Last edited by 70Post; February 20th, 2021 at 09:04 PM.
That document only states that the owner was surprised by the "White W30 stripes". Never insinuated the buyer did not understand he was ordering a W30. The gentlemen was quite old when he helped to word that affidavit (maybe the buyer meant to special order colored stripes that were not white, who knows). It would be easy to get things a bit confused. My guess is that salesman would never forget the one and only 70-442 W30 convertible with 4 speed that tiny dealer likely ever delivered. That said, I could be wrong. I would bet he still has family alive today that remembers him signing that paper, it true.
Very valid point. As a related example, my '70 W-30 convertible came from a small dealership (one car showroom) in a small Indiana town, and there are a couple employees still at the dealership who remember details about the car and the original owner.
Both of the pics you posted show what looks like "excessive" gaps/fitment/mis-alignment...could be a number of factors involved:
>Factory fitment/quality variations - Who knows?? Were all the OAI hoods made equally, etc? Seems more likely than not.
>"Tolerance Stacking" explanation (non-factory created problems) - Like tolerance stacking in engine machining and building, apply the same thing to the various front end parts on these cars....but with the problems occurring after the car was sold on through any restoration work:
1) "Saggy" 1970 442 grills - a common problem due to their vertical "hanging" location with bolts holding each END and nothing supporting the middle of the grills.
2) Damaged hoods improperly repaired - we all know that nose damage is very common on these hoods..which leads me to...
3) Radiator support damage - lots of rad supports have experienced collision damage and have been pushed up somewhat in the middle of the support. You really need to have a nice undamaged rad support to match up any straightening/repair efforts with or else that work can be a "shot in the dark". How much time (ie - $) was spent at a shop trying to test fit, etc.? Was the shop even aware or looking for damage which can sometimes be very subtle on this commonly "overlooked" large front end piece.
4)Rad support "Nose Piece" damage - VERY common and if present, was it really straightened out to the correct shape? These things typically get pushed in STRAIGHT ACROSS and many folks assume the bend line (being fairly straight and even) is a factory bend/feature. Nose pieces can be bent downwards as well...which may be the case in both pics. Getting them back to their correct shape is a time consuming process....been there, done that.
5) Both those cars in your pic appear to NOT HAVE the factory "defect" on the D side chrome hockey stick. The originals always seem to be a bit low relative to the chrome diecast eyebrow on the D side fender. So....maybe more evidence of "repairs" that weren't needed with some resulting effect on other parts of the front end.
6) Hood "tooth" problems - these can be jacked up and out of sorts as well. They distort when overtightend and the corresponding lip on the hood metal skin can also be out of sorts.
Likely a combo of any of the above on those cars. It's rare for a shop to take the time to really check all these parts via mockup and test fitting and/or against known good parts...time consuming, they're not aware of it and/or customer won't pay for all that extra time.
I checked a car here (cursory check) with a used D side grill and the top of the grill lines up pretty evenly with the bottom edge of the hood. I'll check it tomorrow with a chrome hockey stick in place.
Thank you Patton, misery loves company, my 71 has a similar minor fitment issue similar to these six-figure 70s, so I won’t lose sleep over it.
Last edited by vCode442; February 21st, 2021 at 08:06 AM.
When you sign an affidavit you are attesting that the statement you are signing is a fact. 38 years later the exact VIN and other pertinent “facts” regarding this particular vehicle were remembered without any further documentation to refresh his recollection ? The signature looks shaken in my opinion. The affidavit is what it is.
If the motor was rebuilt in this car, maybe just the top end, and it is claimed that the engine was never disassembled before, I wonder if -hoots are available of the original camshaft and pistons (more so the camshaft as the pistons are not unique to a W30 4-speed car). If the motor and tranny WERE out of the car I wonder if there are conclusive photos of the transmission tunnel cutout.
Documentation is a little easier to play with than DNA. I don’t have that kind of loot for a car, but if I were to buy it I would like to see a paternity test beforehand.
Last edited by Bigmikey65; February 21st, 2021 at 09:07 AM.
Sure, I'll bet they held a gun to his head and made him sign that thing years ago. He probably had Alzheimer's then. Oh man, now they killed the dude off so nobody could ever trace the docs!
I am not suggesting that the salesman remembered the VIN number. I own a 70-442 covert w/4 speed. Have owned it for almost 20 yrs, have looked at the VIN numbers hundreds of times and "I think" I can verbalize it w/o double checking. But I remember the fine details of cars that I saw only once from 45 yrs ago because they were so unique and outstanding. The one thing that stands out to me is the likelihood of the salesman remembering a one off, very different car that came through only one time in the history of that very small dealer (chances are). I would assume they never even processed an order for a W30 in any given year from 68-72 (only a guess). I would guess that he very likely could have remembered this very car, that is all I am saying. But hey, it could an elaborate sham, the whole thing, including the car being anything other than a 442. But if Vegas were placing odds on it, it might be on the fav line to be the real deal. If the owner could provide similar affidavits from the first or 2nd owner, if might become a closed case as original. Also, most people care about a car being authentic, not a fake. Being unrestored is a valued attribute, but not as critical is being a real deal whatever special car. If its fake, nothing else matters. For me, if its fake, its a 70-442 vert w/4speed that lacks way too many options. I paid heavy for my car because it had strong docs that could show that it was a 70-442 vert 4-speed w/AC, power steering, power brakes, drivers side power bucket seat, tilt wheel, am/fm stereo and tape deck, OAI hood, posi rear end. I restored it and for me, I would not trade it for another. But hey, that is my taste, not others. It would add another layer of intrigue if certified with a Rocket report (and even then some would say not enough I would guess). Olds 442's prices have been on the rise at auctions thus far this year, so I am guessing this car does well next month. Just another guess
Last edited by capstoneclub; February 21st, 2021 at 03:15 PM.
I was kind of just kidding. I knew George Berejik pretty well. I know he could remember almost every hi-po Olds he sold. But, he was a hi-po guy himself, and he handled most all the hi-po sales himself as far as I know. It's true that dealer probably didn't sell a lot of cars like that, it's likely the salesperson would remember it. It is a beautiful looking, and memorable type of car.
Sure, I'll bet they held a gun to his head and made him sign that thing years ago. He probably had Alzheimer's then. Oh man, now they killed the dude off so nobody could ever trace the docs!
Whoever did the "work" better have also killed the notary. LOL..
Whoever did the "work" better have also killed the notary. LOL..
C'mon, the notary doesn't mean jack. All it means is that the identity of the person who signed the document was verified. There's nothing about being a notarized document that in any way verifies the actual content of the document. And an affidavit is simply someone's statement of events - in this case nearly four decades after the actual event. I don't know anything about this car or the people in question. My only point is that over the decades that I've been involved with these cars, I've heard just about every story imaginable, and the people telling the stories swear up and down that they are remembering them exactly. Usually these stories are about one-of-none cars that naturally no longer exist. It's a really nice car, and again, I have no first-hand info about it, nor do I have any interest in it, but an affidavit, notarized or not, is not "proof" of anything other than what one person believes. Photocopies of original factory documents should also be suspect, as we've recently seen on this very site how window stickers can be created and "antiqued", and probably look even more "real" in a photocopy.
Again, beautiful car, worth whatever someone will pay. With the market at dizzying heights, that could be a lot.
I found it curious that the pre-delivery checklist used a yellow highlighter. The Hi-liter was invented by Dr Honn/Carter ink in the 60's but wasn't largely used
until 1975 when Avery Dennison bought Carters ink co, and added the Hi-Liter to their "office" product line.
This was 1969, ........interesting.........
C'mon, the notary doesn't mean jack. All it means is that the identity of the person who signed the document was verified. There's nothing about being a notarized document that in any way verifies the actual content of the document. And an affidavit is simply someone's statement of events - in this case nearly four decades after the actual event. I don't know anything about this car or the people in question. My only point is that over the decades that I've been involved with these cars, I've heard just about every story imaginable, and the people telling the stories swear up and down that they are remembering them exactly. Usually these stories are about one-of-none cars that naturally no longer exist. It's a really nice car, and again, I have no first-hand info about it, nor do I have any interest in it, but an affidavit, notarized or not, is not "proof" of anything other than what one person believes. Photocopies of original factory documents should also be suspect, as we've recently seen on this very site how window stickers can be created and "antiqued", and probably look even more "real" in a photocopy.
*** Agree Joe, photo copies of docs don't mean much these days. But again, we're probably spending more time examining this car then the buyer will. LOL ***
Last edited by Vader; February 21st, 2021 at 05:32 PM.
February 19th, 2021, 09:45 AM
