Hey Guru's,

I found a '70 E-headed 396021F BB complete w/ Carb & whacky exhaust manifolds. After a less than thorough appraisal I found I could only turn the crank enough to take up the lash (3/4 breaker bar with "loving" torque applied).

He wants 300, I'm thinking 150ish.

 

The Toro would have big intake valves in the head. Other than that it pretty much is a standard 455. Yes it has toro ex manifolds and a sunken toro intake. I bought an entire 67 Toro for 99 bucks some years ago. Engine was stuck. Turns out it had a rod thru the block. I was not thinking devastation such as that.....so if its stuck ya never know without disassembly if its still good. 150 would still be a gamble without insurance.

 

It could be as simple as a little rust sticking the rings of one or more pistons, on to spun rod bearings, etc. The sunken intake supposedly flows as well as the flat ones, so could help with a project car having limited hood clearance. The exhaust manifolds might help putting the engine into a car with a very different frame configuration. The oil pan has an extra quart capacity, but lacks the front baffle, so you should have front and rear baffles fitted around the oil pump and added. The side skimmer baffle in the pan is good, but heat the axle clearance hump with a rosebud tip in an acetylene torch and flatten it so oil can drain back into the sump.

I think I'd try to figure out more about what failed; either stuck rings (soaking a while with solvent should help), or spun rod bearings (usually #3 or 6) are most likely.

 

Yeah I considered the rings, but this motor is about 20 miles out into the sticks surrounded by mosquitos (with wood ticks on there backs) and snakes! I need a chain saw just to get in there. Besides, Oldsmaniacs prognosis would be a good spiel to get it for less. By the look of the motor, it looked well cared for. The owner however has no history on it. I don't know- don't need another 400lb paper weight. Of course the E heads would nicely replace my J's, and your assesment of the Oil pan and baffles adds possibilities.
I couldn't see the pan- is it an odd shape?
'70 was a high nickle block right?
Could the crank be forged?
Comp in the 10's?

 

The comp would be the 10.25:1 variety and iy'll have the 2.07 intake valves if it's really from a Toro. The crank will not be forged because only a handfull of EARLY 68 455's got the forged cranks. The oil pan does have an odd shape to it due to the routing for the front driveshaft under the pan.

Host the pics on photobucket and link to them. That's the easiest way. I wouldn't use imageshack because they have waaaaay too many popups attached to them.

 

Thanks for all the info guys.

 

I couldn't help myself so here's a pic.
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...1&d=1313190832

 

So what did you end up paying? The engine does look like it's in nice condition on the outside. Plus you got all the pulleys, ps, HEI dist? starter etc? Even if you went 300, that's a great buy. Hope you won't be disappointed when you break it down.

 

No Starter unfortunately, and it didn't occur to me to look, but I think it is a standard breaker point distributor.

Yeah who am I fooling. I'll try for 150 but give him what he wants. I can't remember the last time I saw a set of E heads up here. Nothing to lose but 300 bucks and maybe L4 & 5.

Besides, I got a cherry original Olds W-455 intake with an 800 DP sitting on the shelf.

Darn near a W-30!

 

Looks like a good deal, was the flexplate clear when you tried to turn it over?

 

Enough to win the battle.

 

L5-S1 for sure.
So when does the teardown and build start?

 

Lots of irons in the fire in my life. I have a car show to attend today and of course someone has to represent the Olds contingent. That should eat up most of my day.

I'll try to cement this deal this weekend whenever I can fit it in. Then it'll be some time before before I even tear into it (sorry).

I hope it's not like the iron oxide gift that you opened up! I sunk when I saw the crack too. At least it was obvious.

 

No worries. I haven't given up on that beast yet. I've been soaking the pistons/cylinders for the past day so I can hopefully bludgeon them out with a drift and break the others loose enough to turn the crank so I can get to the remaining connecting rod nuts. Like you, I have to be patient with the process. Man I wish I had a time machine and unlimited money....

 

I bought the motor for $300 on Sunday and should be picking it up on friday. The seller knows what he had regardless of its internal condition. Now I gotta find my chain saw and check the 4wd on the truck.

If you all don't hear from me, notify the authorities.

 

Nope.

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...kel-block.html

 

Is that banjo music I hear??

- Eric

 

Pull the plugs and let 3 Tbl. 'Marvel Magic Mystery Oil' sit in there for about a week!
Works wonders!!

Banjo music??
Where you going for this thing??

 

The backwoods I can handle. Snakes I can't. Take along a big can of snake repellent, or your 9mm.

Oh Burt? Y'all, We got a 'candidate' here.

 

Odd..., I do happen to know how to play 'Duelling Banjo's', and I own a canoe, but most of the residents around here have more than one tooth. No one here named Burt either.

Wmachine- Thanks for the metallurgical synopsis of the blocks. I like many utilize the easily accessed information provided on the internet and it's rare to find someone who takes the extra step to provide insightful info at the level you have. You could have used more than one word though.

I'll soak her good when she gets to her new home.

 

I'd go $500.00 on it.Wanna turn it?

 

Thanks but no. For the moment I would like to hang on to my 'Holy Grail' of Oldsmobilia.

 

I'd go a little more,but I figure with freight,I'd have about $750.00 in it,but that's fine with me.I've paid that before.I like my 70 455's,eventhough I don't reuse most of the parts.Just the block & crank.

 

I don't know if I should keep this going, after all, who here hasn't seen a 455 splayed out on a bench.
Here are some pics on the stand.100_0305.jpg

Everything but the water pump appears to be date correct.100_0308.jpg

 

not ta get ya all excited or anything , but in the near future I MIGHT be interested in selling my 68 Toro 455 that is sitting in my moms garage.... all depends on if I can come up with the money to rebuild this motor before my mom sells her house , if not then I have to sell it....... and it seems your only about 14hrs away from me lol

 

I have plenty of 68's with & without the steel cranks.I was interested in another 70.

 

If you decide you wanna sell it, let me know, I might be interested... I'm only 4 hours away

 

will do

 

To bad you guys are so far away from OKC. I have been thnking of selling my 70 E head 455. Its not a Toro engine though but it turns over nicely. I've been thinking about putting some plug wires on it and see if it runs.

 

It can be shipped on a pallet,truck freight.I do it all the time. I have a 72 350 going to Alabama next week.

As for the question about the nickel content: Some maye have slightly more or less,but NONE of the Olds production blocks have enough nickel content to get excited about.

 

Regarding the nickle content, I have recieved 3 different responses concerning its use in olds blocks. Since no one has the recipe, we will have to believe the best available information.

wmachine's metallurgic analysis implies there is little or no nickle in the Olds blocks and that if there was, then it would be softer. Makes sense. I also work in a company that has scores of patents for very hard alloys and see nickle as well as chrome in some of the harder alloys produced. Since his is a physical test however, it should carry the most weight.

442.com/oldsfaq in the block metallurgy section implies there is nickle in Olds blocks and there are F codes on the rear of the block that denote it. This is well organized and it would be hard to believe that someone would go through all that trouble to compile it for nickle content. Lots of weight here too.

Then there's us with the "here say".

Unless we can provide an GM recipe from the 60's, the world may never know, but I'll bet Joe Mondello knows. He had to chat with someone from the Olds camp in those early years. Anybody here good buds with him?

 

Joe was the one who believed the F-number on the back was related to the nickel content,but that is totally bugus.It's been proven by numerous people that there is no relation to that.

If you machine a block with a good amount of nickel in it,you'll hear it.It's pretty quiet when you machine an Olds.

 

Even if anyone was, he died a couple of months ago.

 

Being hard to believe that someone would go to "all that trouble" has no scientific basis. And "all that trouble" that they went to had no scientific basis to it either. That was nothing more than speculation (at best) that unfortunately ends up being taken as fact. There was absolutely nothing being said there that constitutes any proof of anything.
Doesn't matter how far you go in the wrong direction.


Sure we can. This is not at all something that will remain a mystery.
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...ur-engine.html
So far I can tell you I've found no nickel in Olds blocks. I'm still waiting for someone to send me a piece of a high nickel Olds block.

 

Sorry to hear about Joe.

 

Ok, in the name of all Oldsmobile I'll sacrifice a piece off my confirmed 1970 toro block and plop it on the spectrometer at work. Maybe we can finally put this to rest and everyone will be friends again. I'll release the earthshaking news as soon as I compile it.

Uh, anyone have any suggestions on what part of the block I should remove this dime sized sacrificial piece?

 

I had a place in Tennessee do that in 1998,with 5 random blocks.A 68 F3 block,69 F1 block,70 F5 block,71 F4 block,and a 72 F(no number) block.They all came out about the same.Nothing stood out more than the other.The 70 F5 block is what we used for the 507.After sonic testing all of the cylinders,that one had the least amount of core shift,and the thickest cylinders,but not substantially thicker,just the best choice to bore to 4.211".It did have a slight amount more nickel than the 69 F1,which was supposed to be the best,but again,the amount was so minimal,it wasn't worth getting excited about.
What I look at is the cylinders.If you look at the cylinders at the deck surface,you will notice that about 1/2" down from the deck,the cylinder steps in,or tapers,resulting on a thinner wall.I have seen blocks with more or less step,and some with no step at all,leaving a nice thick wall all the way down.I have found no relation to the F-number & the wall thickness either.The 70 F5 block was like this,and the 72 F(no number) was also like this.I have had others like this as well.I have also had some with no step on one side,and a step on the other.The block I am using for the 517 is of all things,a 1976 F6 block.Never would have thunk it,but it was real meaty,so the choice was made.I brought another 70 F2 block up with me,thinking it would be better,and it was good too,but not quite as much after the sonic check.

Conclusion: It's all random.

 

[the amount was so minimal,it wasn't worth getting excited about]

I suppose that's what it all comes down to in the end. I often thought nickle was Oldsmobiles' answer to four bolt mains and it kind of got stuck in my head like that.

I've worked in Piston, Oil pump, and Valve seat manufacturing industries and for nearly 30 years. Learned a lot since then and am still learning. Although they're not engine blocks, the process control wanderes in each of these enviroments too (foundry as well as machining). What went out the door sometimes seemed questionable- but that was not my decision.

should we call you 517 now?

 

No need for the name change.The 507 is going into one of my W30's.I had planned that 11 years ago,when it was built.That's also why I bought another pair of F-heads,and had them fully ported.I'll always have this engine.
The lower rear passenger side of the block usually has a good exccess of material to cut off,if you want to venture out & test the metal.

 

Will do.