Ancient Iron

He just said the car drove fine for 15 miles with a distributor, coil, cap, and rotor.


I would look at the ignition switch and the wiring, I would check the yellow wire to the starter solenoid. Anything is possible with a car that is almost 50 yrs. old

Chris98Buffalo

I gotta go with Eric here - as the coil was hotwired and the distributor housing grounded to BAT - ; the only thing the car did was physically spin the distributor. None of the cars wiring were used in this test scenario.

Additionally, we did verify the Yellow and resistor wire as working as expected using a volt meter and a test light.

Ancient Iron

Is you distributor original to the car?? If so look under the breaker plate there is a small ground wire that over time winds up breaking especially when the plate moves under acceleration.
I tuned my '69 442 once and couldn't figure out why it ran like crap when I accelerated but it would idle fine. To make a long story short that was my problem. Maybe yours broke? Just a thought.

Chris98Buffalo

Your input is greatly appreciated, but this lack of spark crap happens with two distributors, both fully rebuilt. One points, and my original one converted to magnetic with a Crane kit.

As I said, this whole thing is just stupid.

Something, somehow is killing spark.

gregvm

As to the stuck dist......
I've had this problem before, used a long 2 jawed puller with the drive bolt removed and used a small slide hammer in its place. If it pulls the ring off the driveshaft, it will fall down into the pan, but won't hurt anything. Just have to re-mesh the driveshaft into the oil pump input on reassembly. As to the no start problem.....????

Greg

Chris98Buffalo

UPDATE: My rebuilder spent some time today with the car (since it's stuck at his house) and got it started with the original distributor that has the Crane kit in it, set timing, set the carb perfectly. He said it ran great for probably a half an hour - "you could drive it to California, just don't shut it off".. well he learned that after shutting it off. It wouldn't restart, not even hotwired.

Let it cool down for a few hours, still dead. Makes absolutely no sense.

Tomorrow he's building me an HEI, and I am going to use a relay direct to BAT +, and the stock + coil wires (that show voltage as they should) to trigger the relay.

Oh, the stuck "test" distributor had a burr on the housing - he got it out okay with no other complication. Stay tuned! UGH

oldcutlass

I use a relay for my HEI. Glad the distributor popped ou with no damage.

gregvm

Just curious: when you "hot wire" the bat+ are you disconnecting the wire that goes to the ignition switch and starter and have ONLY the hot wire on the coil??

My2nd 69 442

Just a thought of an issue I had that Eric,other Eric, Joe and Fun71 helped me work thru, have you got a tach connected. I had similar issues with my 69 442 that ended up being mostly caused by my indash rallypac tach and a few other issues. The guys I mentioned worked me thru my problems. They are great guys
Good luck

shiftbyear

it might be good to have your car's starting system checked, amp draw, battery voltage drop test, charging system analysis, your battery cables or ground strap may be the culprit. good luck

oldcutlass

Yup, mentioned the tach back in post #45

This is really a non issue with a jumper from B+ to coil+. He has no problems cranking the starter.

MDchanic

Crap. I've been really busy the last few days, on and off a bunch of airplanes, not sleeping enough, so I've only been dropping in for a minute.

2nd 69 is right - we haven't asked about this.

I've been racking my brain (occasionally) about this and come up with nothing, but if your tach is connected, that's got to be the culprit.

If.

I feel eel like a dummy for not having thought of it (since I've thought of it in the past).

​​​​​​​- Eric

oldcutlass

He stated in previous posts with the jumper wire and the distributor being the only 2 wires connected on the coil.

Chris98Buffalo

You guys are great, thanks for all of the input, sincerely.

I have no tach, just the negative from the points to the coil NEG, and the hot wire to the coil POS. This entirely eliminates the car's electrical system. The weird thing is that it started and ran great for a while for my tuner, and then wouldn't restart, even hotwired.

Crank voltages have also been verified, and the grounds and such were cleaned and also verified.

Its like its frickin' haunted.

Chris98Buffalo

Yep, just the bat and the neg to the distributor. The aim being to entirely eliminate the car's electrical from the equation

MDchanic

This is frickin' weird.

It is going to be so simple when you figure it out.

And you will figure it out.

But, Damn.

- Eric

Chris98Buffalo

Agreed, my tuner has 40 years building and racing, specializing in rebuilding carbs and distributors. I have been playing with cars since I was 14, and thats over 30 years ago. He, myself, and all of you great guys on here are totally stumped.

At one point yesterday I exlaimed, "Thanks Obama!" LOL

oldcutlass

I would like to know what is causing this but understand if you just throw an HEI in as the final step in trouble shooting.

Chris98Buffalo

I'd sure love to know too Eric, but we are just fresh out of ideas!

If the HEI does the same thing, time for your signature solution.

oldcutlass

If the HEI does the same thing its not ignition related.

Chris98Buffalo

Agreed - but what the h would allow it to run great for a while until you shut it off?? lol

Chris98Buffalo

Houston, we have ignition! I repeat, we have ignition!!!

Dropped in a blueprinted HEI on a relay from the old Ign/Start wiring and it lit right up.

14 degrees of initial and a conservative advance curve and all is well - it's back here finally. Restarted twice, just to be sure.

My rebuilder and I are still stumped as to what the shenanigans were, but he's sending all of the Crane conversion kits back because he has no faith in them now.

Thanks to all that weighed in, I am grateful for your time and advice.

MDchanic

Did both of the other distributors you tried have those Crane units in them?

Glad you got it fixed!

Let us know if it continues to start a few more times.

- Eric

Chris98Buffalo

No, the "test" one didn't - but he's meticulous and won't send a unit out that he doesn't have complete confidence in. I know, he and I playfully discussed how the fresh points didn't work reliably either, so it may not be the kit...

oldcutlass

Very odd indeed, glad you got it running. Too bad that this gremlin was never caught.

MDchanic

The thing to do now (assuming you gave those two distributors back) is for the builder to try the two distributors on another engine and see whether he gets the same results.

- Eric

Chris98Buffalo

Carmen and I agreed that we never figured it out but we must never speak of this again LOL!

Chris98Buffalo

I agree that would be the most emperical approach, but I am not sure when he will have his next Olds to tinker with.

Yea, he has his test unit back and I left him my points one - wth am I going to do with it?

74sprint

I love HEI, I'm also glad you got it running but, I can't help mentioning this thou. If you hooked the "negative from the points to the coil NEG"the hot wire to the coil POS.", then you fried the coil. Proper hook up on a one wire distributor would be the resistance wire and not B+ to the Positive(+) on the coil and the coil Neg(-) side to the points. The points (closed) ground the coil charging the coil and when they open it fires the coil. The resistor wire provides full voltage when it is cold and when it heats up it's resistance goes up and it drops the voltage going to the coil (can't use this with HEI), this is so the coil puts out full spark when the engine is cold. Full spark is not needed when the engine is warm. All of this is too save the points from burning up. You can hot-wire a GM like you did but only for a very short time. Ford coils had/have a built in resistor and Chrysler used the stupid ceramic ballast resistor mounted on the firewall.

Ray

ROCKETMAN269V

I hate to disagree with you on your explanation of how the coil primary wiring works. There are two wires going to the coil (+); one is the resistor wire, which is relatively constant; the second is the yellow wire, which runs from the starter solenoid, and is only energized when the engine is cranking. This gives the coil a full 12 volts to get the engine running, and when you release the key, and the switch returns to the RUN position, the ignition is running through the resistor wire, to keep from burning the points up.
A big mistake that a lot of people make when they install an HEI is to connect the two wires from the stock coil to the BAT (+) terminal on the HEI cap. This does not give the HEI sufficient voltage to properly fire the spark plugs.

83hurstguy

The Crane points replacement units have done some funky stuff from other people I have talked to, random RPM break ups, etc... I ended up with the M&H points conversion in mine, it fires right up and had a perfectly stable timing curve on the dyno.

I've also heard some of the systems like pertronix take more time to register the rpm during cranking, so they tend not to fire the car as quickly. If the unit was having a hard time registering engine rpm to recognize it's starting, it may have been part of the problem.

When you had "new" points and condenser in there, were they parts store new or some new old stock? I've heard almost all the "parts store new" stuff is from one offshore supplier and isn't the quality it has been in the past. Low demand, so not many people producing these parts anymore. A friend had "new" points come apart and blow the mufflers up on his w30 halfway down the dragstrip... the person who did my distributor said many of the "new" points will bounce on the Sun machine as well at high rpm...

VC455

I've found the M&H to be the highest quality points conversion. They operate with the reliability of a stock ignition.

Not trying to badmouth the other points conversion options. Many people are satisfied with them. In my experience these others work well--until they don't.

ChrisG

I would find yourself another balancer from a trusted source and compare the two off the car, in the days of motor swapping and tight budgets, it is possible that someone put a balancer off of a completely different engine on the the crank, just because it looks like it fits, and looks old, doesnt mean it is right, that and replace the fuel hoses at the rear to the tank, I have witnessed collapsing lines actually create a vacuum and vacuum lock a fuel system. Especially with mechanical fuel pumps. These are my thoughts, and good luck!

Chris98Buffalo

Agreed- Those two wires described were both crimped to one spade lug for coil +POS, they are attached to a relay. The relay switches direct Bat+ so the Bat+ input on the HEI - it starts immediately now.

Chris98Buffalo

I will tell Carmen - He's reputable and meticulous. HE did a Pertronix for my '74 Vette (wanted the cable tach working) and it worked great. Maybe time for a new supplier.

Chris98Buffalo

This was my first go at the Crane, and maybe my (and my builder's) last.

Chris98Buffalo

Perhaps I wasn't clear - we used Battery + power to the coil directly to bypass any potential electrical gremlins in the car itself. This was for testing only, but it ensured the coil had plenty of juice at all times.

Chris98Buffalo

Aaaannnd now.. the anecdote. lol

The whole reason I started the tuneup and went down this rabbit hole in the first place was to clear up a lumpy idle.

The car starts and runs well now, but still has a lumpy idle.

* All vacuum lines have been replaced.
* Power brake booster is not leaking. You can unplug it hours later and there's still vacuum in it.
* Vacuum is a steady ~17-18 inches at 800 RPM
* Carb is blueprinted and responds to even subtle adjustments.

Car starts right up now. Literally a second or so on the key. Toss it in gear and sit at a red light, it wont stall but it feels like it will. The car is crisp and responsive with about 14 degrees of initial (~30 degrees total timing)and no ping on 93 octane. It will easily break the one tire loose, even unintentionally lol.

The engine appears pretty unmolested, but could someone have stabbed a cam in it years ago?? lol

Just a followup for those guys tuned into the thread - who knows what this is.. but I reason Olds didn't send it out the door with an idle like this.

olds 307 and 403

I would add 4 degrees of timing, if not 6 or 8. That may help smooth it out and it will add power.

Chris98Buffalo

I (and my tuner) were tempted.. but that sounds like a LOT - 18 degrees initial? The book calls for 8... and 10:1 (1970 compression) on 93 Octane..? Well, until it pings, diesels, or hard starts why not I guess?