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Warning: I am not a mechanic so the questions I'm about to ask may be offensive.
1-Can the air cleaner base shown be used with the flapper shown?
2-If yes do I simply drill a hole in it for the driver side PVC tube?
3-Are the tubes reproduced or do I need to find OE stuff?
4-Do I get the vacuum for the flapper actuator from the line that runs from the front of the carb to the vacuum advance?
5-Is there a gasket needed between the base and the carb?
6-If I run both PVC tubes to the base, do I just cap off the nipple on the front of the carb?
If you have any parts I need to make complete, please let me know if you would like to part with them.
The issue that I see here is the HEI unit. The HEI unit does not normally clear the air cleaner base unit without modifications. Also, the air cleaner base would not be correct for a W25 car like yours.
1-Can the air cleaner base shown be used with the flapper shown?
Yes, however as noted, you will need a spacer to clear the HEI.
2-If yes do I simply drill a hole in it for the driver side PVC tube?
You can, however AT cars with W-25 (non-W-30 cars) only used a single breather. Only W-30s and MT cars used the dual breather setup.
3-Are the tubes reproduced or do I need to find OE stuff?
Some of them are.
EDIT: apparently Inline Tube repros the dual breather tubes. Of course, if you have a spacer to clear the HEI, these will be too short.
4-Do I get the vacuum for the flapper actuator from the line that runs from the front of the carb to the vacuum advance?
The flapper runs off straight manifold vacuum. If the carb nipple is manifold and not ported vacuum, it will work. Typically the flapper tees into the same vac line as the one to the trans modulator.
5-Is there a gasket needed between the base and the carb?
Yes, and from your photos it appears to already be in place on your carb.
6-If I run both PVC tubes to the base, do I just cap off the nipple on the front of the carb?
The large nipple on the front of the carb is for the PCV valve, NOT the breather(s). You still need a PCV valve. If you run the dual breathers, you need to connect the PCV valve to the nipple on the intake. In your first photo, note the blanked-off boss directly behind the passenger side bolt on the t-stat housing. MT cars had this boss drilled out and a nipple pressed in. A rubber elbow connects this nipple to one end of the PCV valve and the other end goes to the carb nipple.
Rick - I pm'd you asking about pics of your air cleaner base and intake setup BEFORE seeing this thread so you can disregard my PM.
You don't have the original style air cleaner base for your car. I can tell from one of your pics above (one showing almost to the end of the snorkel) that you probably have the wrong base.
As mentioned by other folks already, the HEI may interfere with the base you have AND the original style base.
If you can post a pic showing the WHOLE snorkel part of your air cleaner that will help confirm what I say but from what I can tell already, yours isn't the original style base for a '70 442. Your snorkel looks too long and likely too narrow compared to the original style used.
If you didn't use an original style "turkey tray" metal intake gasket you would need to use one if you were to run a W30 style PCV setup like Joe shows above. If you used aftermarket composite gaskets on the heads-to-intake surfaces you'll end up sucking a lot of oil through the PCV with the PCV-in-intake W30 style setup.
If your vacuum actuator still works then you might consider sending it to Sparky's Carbs for replating. I've read many complaints about repro OAI vacuum motor/actuators not working (ie not holding vacuum) after some time. Great place for hidden vacuum leak to occur.
EDIT and ADD: I think I see evidence of a full coverage metal "turkey tray" type intake gasket but not sure from the pics.
Using a spacer to raise the air cleaner base MAY result in the top/rear of your plastic flapper assembly hitting and rubbing against the OAI hood screen. I say "MAY" as I have no idea how far the air cleaner assembly would need to be raised.
One other possible option is to modify the rear/bottom edge of the air cleaner base you have to clear the HEI dist. Cut out a section of metal that gives you plenty of clearance and you can weld in a block off piece or just leave it open where you cut it away. Not a big "deal" as the base you have isn't the original style (ie - you're not cutting up a valuable/desirable part like an original style base).
The bases are also reproduced by The Parts Place or you can find a good used one if you want an original style base.
Someone (ILT, etc) may also sell the pressed-in steel stub that gets put into the intake boss after it's drilled out for a "W30 style" PCV setup. You can't see what I'm referring to in the pic Joe P. posted.......it's an approx 1/2" diameter metal stub/tube that the downleg of the rubber PCV elbow is pushed onto.
EDIT and ADD MORE: I looked at a hard copy of the ILT catalog here and don't see the press in PCV metal tube but they're always coming out with new parts so check their website, etc.
I have fabricated my own metal press-in tubes if you can't find a repro or original. Not EXACTLY like the originals but no way to tell any difference once the rubber elbow is slipped on over it.
Don't even know if you're considering installing this style PCV setup since your motor is already together (although it probably could be done if done CAREFULLY with some precautionary measures).
The Felpro PN for a air cleaner base - to - carb gasket is 60038....easily available at local auto parts stores since it fits a MASSIVE number of cars.
Last edited by 70Post; January 8th, 2017 at 09:01 PM.
I thought the nipple was available repro, but I haven't been able to find one either. You can harvest one off an old Qjet base if you have one, however. Carefully extract the large PCV nipple from the throttle body on a junk carb.
It appears the base I have will clear the distributor. Not by much but it does clear.
I guess that's the beauty of the 1" taller deck height on the BBO. The distributor is in the same place on both BBO and SBO, but the carb flange is higher due to the taller deck height.
Along for the ride. I would be curious how you would drill the intake while it is already on. I think it would be worth the gasket and time to do it off the motor.
Along for the ride. I would be curious how you would drill the intake while it is already on. I think it would be worth the gasket and time to do it off the motor.
I don't think anyone is suggesting drilling the intake while on the motor.
EDIT
Ok, I see now that Patton did open that door. I would not be comfortable drilling without taking it off.
Last edited by Cincinnati Rick; January 9th, 2017 at 07:09 PM.
You have a metal valley tray I assume so we know nothing can drop down into the actual intake valley/lifter gallery.
OK - hang on to your seats.
>Drill and bit of appropriate size
>Shop vacuum with very narrow crevice type nozzle - not a wide nozzle, I'm talking about a nozzle that's maybe 1 - 1-1/2 wide with a 3/8" opening height.......it's going to create A LOT of vacuum with a large shop vac (OK - you guys probably see where this is going
>Locate and prepunch center of the cast boss and begin drilling....SLOWLY (if any of you are drilling metal and pulling the trigger on your variable speed drill way up there you are wasting your money and drill bits)
>Cast iron drills VERY EASILY
>Have your buddy hold the vacuum nozzle right up to the drill bit as you are drilling (hint: Turn on the vacuum )
>Go slowly and remove drill and bit frequently to see exactly how far you've drilled into the boss...at some point you are going to see a small hole where the bit is beginning to break through the bottom on the casting. Vacuum out the hole while the bit is removed.
>Now is the time to be especially "good" with the super vacuum nozzle...keep it right next to/over the hole and SLOWLY drill through the bottom of the cast-in boss (vacuum in place the whole time) and once through the casting all the way pull out the drill with the vacuum still next to it pulling air, etc.
>Follow up with a extendable telescoping magnet.... put it down in the drilled hole and back out....clean off. Now, go back into the hole straight down until it hits the turkey tray metal pan.....maneuver the magnet around and pull it out again, check for metal, rinse, repeat.
>You might even be able to get a good penlight to look down through the drilled hole once you break through....maybe you'll be able to see any metal shavings.
>DO THEY MAKE MAGNETIZED DRILL BITS??????? Can you magnetize one that isn't? (tape a STRONG magnet onto the bit?)
I would consider drilling the hole dry....no cutting oil as the oil may flow into the hole along with the metal particles and down onto the valley pan. Again, cast iron is fairly soft and drill bits are relatively cheap.
Pressure applied to the drill and the drill speed should be very light...you don't want to "break through" the casting with a bunch of pressure that causes you to let the bit go way in there. PATIENCE is key...and a lot of concentration.
Remove the PCV valve from the one valve cover and the breather from the other before you start drilling.
Probably not a great idea as it entails some risk of having metal particles left on top of the valley pan...when the drill bit breaks through and you finish up there might be some pieces of drilled metal that end up falling down instead of getting vacuumed up....drill bit in the hole would be blocking some of the vacuum action, etc while you cut through the bottom surface. Or...some particles might bounce as they hit the valley pan and end up out of "magnet range".
Guess I better stop watching "MacGyvor" reruns. I don't know what W30 PCV-in-intake setups have to do with trying to escape from an imminent/dangerous situation while utilizing "found" and homebrew tools(all within a half hour...or was that an hour long show?) but maybe you all can figure out the whole story line.....I'm providing the "escape plan" so you all can fill in the rest of the show.
OK--FLAME AWAY!!! I have thick skin but it's an "IDEA".......any takers?
I agree-pull the intake if you want to install this style PCV set up....it's not a terrible job to do (other than the HEAVY cast iron intake).
Last edited by 70Post; January 9th, 2017 at 09:18 PM.
A super-sucker ultra magnetic drill bit sounds like a pretty "found and homebrewed" tool to me, 70MacPost. Lol.
To persue the idea one step further, assuming the area is an inch thick drill with a small bit to 3/4 inch keeping a bottom in the hole, then step up with the bits (say at least 4 times) to minimize shavings. Then punch through the last 1/4 inch using the same procedure. That should minimize shavings as well.
I would still pull the intake.
Last edited by Troys Toy 70; January 10th, 2017 at 05:43 AM.
I did this on a cast iron intake I converted over for a '72 442 M/T OAI non W-30 set up I installed in my vert. I bought a the nipple from our late friend Chris Witt (Octania) and he also supplied some pretty in depth measurements/instructions on how to install it - very similar as to Patton describes above. We did it on the motor not yet installed on the car and it worked out well. Let me know if you want those instructions I got from Chris and I'll dig them out.
I did this on a cast iron intake I converted over for a '72 442 M/T OAI non W-30 set up I installed in my vert. I bought a the nipple from our late friend Chris Witt (Octania) and he also supplied some pretty in depth measurements/instructions on how to install it - very similar as to Patton describes above. We did it on the motor not yet installed on the car and it worked out well. Let me know if you want those instructions I got from Chris and I'll dig them out.
Hi Joe,
Great to hear from you buddy. How's that truck project coming along?
Probably not going to do it until the motor gets broke in this spring . I can keep the PCV set up I have for now. Eventually I'd like to find the correct base and plumb it all up the way its supposed to be.
I would really appreciate you sharing the instructions Chris shared with you when you get a chance to dig them out.
Hi Joe,
Great to hear from you buddy. How's that truck project coming along?
Probably not going to do it until the motor gets broke in this spring . I can keep the PCV set up I have for now. Eventually I'd like to find the correct base and plumb it all up the way its supposed to be.
I would really appreciate you sharing the instructions Chris shared with you when you get a chance to dig them out.
Take Care
Good to hear from you. Especially enjoyed the CO afternoon drink(fest) we had at the bar in Kingsport - mucho funno.
I'll start looking for those instructions from Chris tonight and get back with you soon. Hope to see you in Albuquerque - Patton will be there as well.
Yvette and I are on board for Albuquerque. I've been throwing 50 bucks a week in the national show slush fund right after we came back from Kingsport. Her sister happens to live there so it was pretty easy to convince her we had to go. She will be spending a lot of time visiting so you and Patton may get stuck with a third wheel tagging along.
Picked up all the breathers, grommets, fittings and vent tubes from ILT to correctly plumb my OAI set up. (Thanks for the reference Joe P) Had to switch out intakes because of some unrelated issue so I took advantage and drilled and threaded the boss for the PCV nipple. Used a threaded nipple and cut off the threads on one side. It fits the elbow perfect and no one can tell the difference when the elbow is installed. Now it all looks correct for a 4-speed set up. I'm curious if the factory used hose clamps on the PCV elbow and hose. If they did, what type did they use? I don't really like the looks of the spiral clamps.
Thanks for every ones input on this thread.
Factory Assembly Manual doesn't show use of any clamps anywhere along the PCV-in-intake-to-carb-base route.
You do have a pinch style band clamp, I see, where the rubber hose connects to your carb base......you could use those if you at least want a "cleaner"/more "factory" style look on the other connections. IF the factory had used clamps, they would have almost surely used the pinch style like they used on other hoses like the brake booster vacuum hose, etc.
Keep an eye on the rubber "elbow".....the older repros seemed to develop a crack/split a lot of times....crappy new rubber I guess.
Factory Assembly Manual doesn't show use of any clamps anywhere along the PCV-in-intake-to-carb-base route.
You do have a pinch style band clamp, I see, where the rubber hose connects to your carb base......you could use those if you at least want a "cleaner"/more "factory" style look on the other connections. IF the factory had used clamps, they would have almost surely used the pinch style like they used on other hoses like the brake booster vacuum hose, etc.
Keep an eye on the rubber "elbow".....the older repros seemed to develop a crack/split a lot of times....crappy new rubber I guess.
I don't have anymore of the pinch clamps but will get some. They definitely look better than the spiral clamps.I figured they didn't use any clamps but didn't want any leaks. I'll keep an eye on the elbow. Thanks for the heads up Patton.
What is the difference between the snorkel on a 1970 W-25 air cleaner base and a standard base? What was the reason for the difference? Besides the drain holes, were there any other differences in the main section of the air cleaner bases?
What is the difference between the snorkel on a 1970 W-25 air cleaner base and a standard base? What was the reason for the difference? Besides the drain holes, were there any other differences in the main section of the air cleaner bases?
If by "standard base" you mean a non-OAI base for a '70 442 then:
BASES:
First - In 1970, a non-OAI 442 got the "same" base as the OAI cars....both had TWO holes in the base perimeter for the valve cover vent pipes/grommets. One hole (D side) got plugged with a rubber block-off plug.
Change to the OAI option and they added the drain holes inside the "standard" base and some, if not all, snorkels got the hole punched in the end for the CA emissions equipment.
SNORKELS:
The snorkel dimensions are the same for a non-OAI '70 442 and the OAI versions. Again, OAI snorkel (some or all) got the extra emissions hole.
W31's and I assume Rally 350's got the same base....with the extra holes since both were OAI cars. SX cars would have received the same thing....and I assume with holes added for OAI SX's (I assume OAI was on option on SX cars).
BUT - if you mean regular 4 bbl Cutlass's in 1970 when you say "standard base" then that's a completely different animal.....at least as far as the snorkel is concerned. Smaller opening/snout on those snorkels and not as "tall" compared to regular 442, OAI, etc. cars.
Reason for difference in snorkels??? WHO THE HELL KNOWS! - but they are "meaner" looking.
For some reason, I was under the impression the air cleaner base on a non-W25 '70 442 was the same as a '70 Cutlass 4-bbl air cleaner base, and only the W-25 air cleaner base was unique. Are there a part numbers stamped on the air cleaner bases?
Will need to find photos of a '70 W-25/442 air cleaner base and a Cutlass 4-bbl air cleaner base to see snorkel differences, or find the snorkel opening dimensions for the two different air cleaners. Besides the larger snorkel opening, is there any difference in the snorkel lengths? I know the non-W25 '71 442 air cleaner changed to the dual snorkel, but are the W-25 air cleaner bases the same for 1970 and 1971?
Last edited by anthonyP; November 3rd, 2017 at 08:50 PM.
[QUOTE=anthonyP;1053873]Thank you Patton for the information.
For some reason, I was under the impression the air cleaner base on a non-W25 '70 442 was the same as a '70 Cutlass 4-bbl air cleaner base, and only the W-25 air cleaner base was unique. Are there a part numbers stamped on the air cleaner bases?
Anthony - No PN's stamped on the bases that I have or have dealt with (most had original paint). As you probably already know, there is the blue/green colored date code typically printed on the inside of the base....inside the air filter perimeter.
I may be looking at a very original Cutlass 350 4bbl motor still in a car tomorrow. I'm fairly sure it still has the original air cleaner and I'll take a camera.
Will need to find photos of a '70 W-25/442 air cleaner base and a Cutlass 4-bbl air cleaner base to see snorkel differences, or find the snorkel opening dimensions for the two different air cleaners. Besides the larger snorkel opening, is there any difference in the snorkel lengths? I know the non-W25 '71 442 air cleaner changed to the dual snorkel, but are the W-25 air cleaner bases the same for 1970 and 1971?
Back to the air cleaner I may get a look at tomorrow......I'll also look for a date stamp on it and compare that to the car's build date. I'm fairly sure they are different (ie snorkels) as I WOULD HAVE ALREADY TRIED TO BUY THE BASE as it would have really caught my eye had it been to 442 style snorkel. I've pulled the base off the carb before to get a throttle cable bracket so I would have noticed if it was the same.
Not sure on the exact dimensional differences but 100% sure on the snorkel opening size being much larger (wider and taller) than the "442 style" bases. Accordingly, the snorkel is much larger where it's spot welded to the air cleaner base.
Yes, '70 and '71 (and '72) bases for W25 are all the same other than the possibility that some after 71 didn't get the extra hole in the snorkel end.
[QUOTE]
Last edited by 70Post; November 3rd, 2017 at 10:06 PM.
After seeing the photos I will need to check the air cleaner base on my non-W25 '70 442 for correctness. I'm guessing the larger snorkel opening on the '70 442 air cleaner was a performance upgrade, with the '71 442 non-W25 dual snorkel air cleaner a further upgrade. Thanks Patton for the additional information.
After seeing the photos I will need to check the air cleaner base on my non-W25 '70 442 for correctness. I'm guessing the larger snorkel opening on the '70 442 air cleaner was a performance upgrade, with the '71 442 non-W25 dual snorkel air cleaner a further upgrade. Thanks Patton for the additional information.
Yeah - I guess it had to be for additional air....although the CFM rating on a 442 carb and a Cutlass 350 4 bbl would have been the same. Maybe the 442 carb needed the extra size in the snorkel end to ease the flow of air (assuming they're different). Of course, when the right foot took action (floored) the flapper, hopefully, took over to allow outside air to the carb.
Cool stuff for sure....the "why's and wherefore's" of these odd design differences. SOMEBODY had to design and ultimately SPECIFY the differences......sure would be cool to talk to those folks.
Set up the Time Machine Anthony.....we's got some folks we need to talk to!
I was thinking the same thing about the air intake between a non-W25 442 and Cutlass 4-bbl carburetors. Why not just use the same air cleaner base for both carburetors. But then again, I would had thought for sure the '70 W-32 would have an internal alternator since it is a 442 drive train, but because it is in a Cutlass, it has an external regulated alternator.
Too bad the warehouse storing the Oldsmobile records burnt down, it may had contained engineering documents as well as the individual built vehicle information.
Someone had mentioned years ago that Anchor Motor Freight had copies of the invoice, including the build sheet for every vehicle they delivered. I tried finding someone who might know where the records went after the bankruptcy, but no luck. The company currently operating under that name has no connection to the old company.
That time machine would sure come in handy right about now.
Has anyone drilled or stamped the hole at the end of the air cleaner snorkel used for W25 equipped cars? My brother bought an aftermarket W25 air cleaner base that does not have the hole in the snorkel.
It the one used to connect the line from the charcoal canister for cars sold in California. Supposedly all W25 air cleaner bases have this regardless where the car was to be delivered.
Has anyone ever seen a factory W25 air cleaner base without the snorkel having the hole for the charcoal canister line?
Any help would be appreciated in how to either drill or stamp the hole so it does not distort the metal and look similar to the factory made hole.
The cleanest way to make the hole (needs no doctoring after the fact) is with a sheet metal punch.
These consist of a punch and die that are drawn together with a bolt. Electricians use them to make burr-free holes in fuse panel boxes and other sheet metal enclosures.
January 7th, 2017, 08:23 PM
She will be spending a lot of time visiting so you and Patton may get stuck with a third wheel tagging along.
