tim72

I said I would keep all abreast of my oil pressure problems as I try to get it resolved.
Took the car in to the original engine Builder D&S Motor City Muscle.
They are pulling valve covers to see the amount of oil being pushed to the top of the motor. So far acceptable according to them on the passenger side bank.
The also checked the Crankshaft end play and found it is on the high side of tolerance. What this has to do with oil presure I do not know at this point. (probably many things).
They have had the car for two weeks with no reasonable explainations and seem to be sitting on a choice. That choice is to pull the motor and find the issue.
The guy, Good guy, asked me if I wanted to take the car back as is? lol!!!!
I said f.. no I want the oil pressure fixed!
They have told me that they have never ran into this issue before!

Stay tuned!

redoldsman

These guys sound like they have not built many Olds motors. That is something I would check. As you may know, Olds motors are a different animal. They are way different from Chevy's.

88 coupe

When was the original work done and how many miles on it?

Not where I would be looking.


Not relevant. And not where I would be looking.

http://www.nmri.go.jp/eng/khirata/me...y/index_e.html

In a non production setting, one can choose to use nominal "blueprint" dimensions, or take advantage of "tolerances" (more clearance = less friction = more power = shorter engine life) to suit his/her individual needs.


Nothing.


If it is a fresh, or recent, rebuild, the best choice, is to "pull" the pan and check the oil pump.


When you answer my question, I will tell you whether I have, or not.


Not relevant.

There is no difference, in machining methods or diagnostic procedures, between a Rolls Royce and a Yugo. You can put Olds and Chev engines between those two extremes.


I have said it before, and will say it again:
If a shop cannot properly rebuild an Olds engine, there is no way I would trust them with one of my Chevs, and if a shop is competent to do a proper rebuild on one of my Chevs, I would trust them to do the same on one of my Olds.

Norm

507OLDS

I know plenty of shops that can manage to build a Ford or Chevy without any issues,but that doesn't mean that they can do an Oldsmobile. The common problem that I see is that the builder thinks he can make all of the tolerances the same as Chevy,& probably has those memmorized.Well,you can't.The engine will have issues & eat itself.Oldsmobile engines have larger journal sizes,& require more volume of oil,compared to your typical SBC or even a BBC.You can't follow a Chilton's manual either.

88 coupe

If a machinist cannot do an Oldsmobile, he/she should not be masquerading as one. Any competent shop will be able to do a proper rebuild on whatever comes in the door.

Other than as a flat rate reference, I have never used a Chilton manual. Didn't it, like Motors (now Alldata), source their spec's from factory literature?

Norm

tim72

I am pulling the motor and taking it back to them to find out hopefully what the issues are with the oil pressure. They have agrreed to look at it and fix the issue whatever that is. This is getting to be a PITA. I FIGURE THEY SHOULD BE PULLING THE MOTOR FOR NOTHING, but they want a Grand to do it. $1000 dollars sure does cover a lot of parts for them they may need to fix it. I can have it out of the car in about two hours. Hell As many times as I have done this I might as well put a stop watch on myself and go for the guniess world book of records!!! lol! Will keep you posted and again thanks for all the comments! Maybe we can all learn something from this.

One PO Dude!!

redoldsman

The good thing about having Norm back - NOTHING AT ALL

tim72

Latest update is we pulled the thrust bearing cap and it was in rough shape. The end play was pretty substantial considering there is less than 2000 miles on the motor. The other bearings did not show anywhere near the same wear as the thrust. There theory is with the trans and converter putting presure on the crank causing the end play. Possible I guess except that the Torque converter is brand new and the trans was rebuilt. No shifting problems,Vibrations, loud bangs etc. Ran very smooth. So far we are looking at R&R the crank and put new rods and main bearing's. Still think low oil pressure is the issue but any other thoughts are appreciated. Learning as we go.

J-(Chicago)

Make sure the oil pump pickup is 3/8" from the bottom of the pan, and that the pump isn't sucking air.
I have bearing clearance recommendations from 2 of my motors that run great, with 60psi of oil pressure if your machinist would like them for reference.

dc2x4drvr

Question, what was the crankshaft endplay measurement on your buildsheet when you picked up the motor? And what is it now?

BlackGold

What brand and model of torque converter? You wouldn't be the first person who had a cheap converter balloon on him and take out a thrust bearing.

kaz442

Where was the wear in the thrust bearing? On the main journel area or the thrust area? What is the finish on the thrust surface of the crank (pics please)? Got any pics of all the bearings? You said the others did not have as much wear. What where the clearances that they set the bearings up with?
JKaz

tim72

Just left the builders and did find after looking at the converter the flywheel bolts had hit the converter. There is clearance between the converter and flywheel .060. I used the standard flex plate and a decent transmision specialties torque converter. We will change to a better flex plate and may go with a better converter. So far we are looking at $1500 to fix. Oil pressure is still an issue that has not been resolved though. I am running resrictors. I do not believe that this is the issue. The oil pump is a Melling and depending on the spring can push 100 plus PSI. So the question is getting the correct spring. Bearing clearances could be an issue and I would definately like to know what would be correct tolerances? So the point of all this info is that rebuilding a motor and adding Horsepower is not as easy as 123. The other point is the shift kit spring in your valve body. Depending on the spring, they regulate the amount of pressure to the converter through the pump. To much pressure to the wrong converter can possibly cause what has happened to my motor. So I hope I have helped somebody else out now or down the road with the issues I have had. Anyways We caught it before we destroyed the whole motor. R&R bearings,torque converter,Flywheel and pump. Make sure Bearing clearances are correct. sounds so simple.

tim72

If I could get them tolerances from you I would appreciate it!!

Thanks
Tim

olds455

J-Chicago, I'd like to see those clearances as well.

Sorry to hear about the engine. My new build just spun #6 rod after 100 miles. Joe

tim72

Sorry to hear about the rod going bad. Bummer

dc2x4drvr

Here are the clearances on my 461;
Mains .0028-.0030 rear: .0032-.0034
Rods: .0025-.0027
Rod side clearance: .0018-.0020
Crank endplay: .004-.006
Crank thrust clearance: .008-.010
just my .02

tim72

Thank you!

kaz442

I'm running .0033-.0035 rods
.0040 mains
.0016-.0018 side clearance
.006 end clearance
JKaz

Texas Jim

This is the second engine that I've read about on here this week where the clearances were obviously wrong, the engine went to **** and the build done by a shop, a shop that's screwed the engine up and isn't taking care of the problem except to charge the customer more money to do it right this time, unlike the first time. Any basic idiot knows to go w/ clearances that pertain to that specific engine and application. I mentioned before that I wanted my machine work done by a shop that knew what they were doing w/ Olds engines. My reason was about head work, things that weren't factory-out-of-the- book stuff, but performance know-how like porting Olds heads to work to their fullest, etc. IMO, anyone who would guess at clearances and/or use clearances on an Olds engine because it works on a Chevy is a complete and total idiot. When I learned about engine building, afew years back, bottom end clearances/tolerances were the very basic. Ude clearances that work on that particular engine and application. Like I said, someone who would mix clearances between one mfg. and another, or thinking that if it worked well on the Chevy then it will work well on this Olds was never taught or has forgotten the very basic **** at the beginning of the course. When I say course, I mean the beginning of your engine building knowledge/experience/wisdom understanding. And you say that the shop had your car f/ 2 weeks and did next to nothing. WTF!!! Incredible! It's a shame that people like this are allowed to operate in this business. People like these shops are who destroys trades as a whole. It's the worst!!! Sorry f/ the rant, but this kind of incompetence on the part of a shop that is in business to build engines and that blows it on the very basics of the build just eats me up. And the worst part is that it's you and I who eat the bill, not the shop that's at fault.

tim72

Texas Jim
Thanks for your reply as you are so correct. Being from the Detroit area you would think we would have a lock on good engine rebuilders which in the case of Chevrolet that might be acorrect statement. Both my builders (this is the fourth rebuild) came with supposed good reputations.

1st left out oil galley plug
2nd wrong oil used by builder breaking in cam
3rd Thrust bearing issues and low oil pressures/ possible wrong bearing clearances.
4th R&R crank and rod bearings and possible new crank. Crank at .020 under currently.

What a mess.
Should have built it myself if I could have found somebody who could be relied on to do the correct machine work.

Tim

Texas Jim

That's how I always do it. Get good machine work done and check everything and bolt it together myself. You have to check the clearances yourself and depend on no one else but yourself.

tim72

Will get my motor back monday. The ground the crank to the bearings. The shimed the oil pump. All new bearings. New flex plate although I do not think that was an issue. At least my builder stood behind his product. He hopefully took care of the problem. Will let you know what happens when i crank her up!

tim72

We got the motor started after 4th rebuild and we finally have oil pressure around 45 psi at idle using 30 weight Brad Penn break in oil. Lesson learned: make sure you get a good builder that knows oldsmobiles. I think next time I will rebuild it myself.