Right now before i know exactly what caused this i dont want to say who it was because i dont want to destroy his bussines with bad advertisment **** happens to everyone and it was my turn i guess,it could be as much my fault as his,i didnt started this thread to blame anyone im just a little frustrated.

Do you really think the rods are junk? if thats the case that puts me in a hole different price category that makes me rething the sbc alternative,noone here sells rods for olds this means about 700us for new aftrmarket H beams + shipping+machine work ehhhhh no thanks

 

I have to say your attitude about this is better than most people would be.

 

Not to kick you while down but I second the rods are junk.

 

Me.

 

Wow Mark and Panos, I'm really sorry.

I'm sure a lot of us here are very interested to find out what happened, as it looks like everything should have been done right. There's always that one thing that can't possibly happen that happens...

Please keep us up to date with what you figure out.

- Eric

 

Panos,

I think some of us can help you find rods and ship them to you for much less. Consider this an offer to help out

Pat

 

Thanks a lot,already found Eagle H rods at evil-bay for 470+72us shipping,dont think i can get those much cheaper,do those have press fit or floating pins?

 

Panos, would it be cheaper to have the machine work done here and ship the parts to you?

I recently purchased the remains of a boat 455, it looks like low hours but he didn't drain the block for the winter and it cracked bad. The factory rods look good and the crank still has ink dots on it from the factory. I know I can put four rods/pistons in one US Postal Flat Rate box. Your new pistons would have to be put on these and they should be checked for resizing. I could provide you these rods at $80 for the set plus shipping. To help out, I would also take $125 for the N crank plus shipping. It looks very nice. Let me know if you want to see pictures of anything. If we can help you repair the 455 and stay Olds let us know what you need. John

 

Thank you so much people,im quite stubbern guy (already put the engine in-out 2 times all by myself on my driveway)so i think im gonna stick with that engine ,i think that my crank is not damaged too bad and since it never been cut so i guess i can get away with a ,010 cut the rods sound intresting but im gonna know more/for sure after i talked to this guy next week

 

For all to learn from,

When I did Panos' 455 I took for granted that fuel there was better than here. My mistake.
I have sinced verified that the fuel in Sweden is RON, not the R+M/2 as it is here in the U.S. There was some discussion about this early on.

When I dynoed the 455 the best pull had about 29 degrees of timing at WOT on 93 pump. When I advanced it to 32 I lost 14hp. That tells me it detonated. When the dyno session was finished I replaced the rod bearings. They clearly showed signs of detonation, but none any worse than another, and that after only one 6 second pull in detonation. Until we can verify otherwise, I believe the cause was in fact detonation, as he was running much more timing that I did with only minimally better fuel. But as mentioned, shame on me for not verifying the quality of fuel there.

I am impressed at the level of help here, without the bashing common on other sites, keep it coming. I am trying to help as much as I can as well. I already sent lifters, pushrods, and gaskets at my expense.

Panos is a patient and good man, I'm confident we will be able to help him resolve this with minimal expense. I'm sure he's touched by the genuine concern as well.

If anyone has any questions I'm here to help, as always.

Thanks
Mark

P.S. when you get to this power level, I strongly suggest an aftermarket rod as well.

 

so i'm just curious... how were the main bearings?
Was the damage limited to the rod bearings?

Just educating myself as to what can happen & when. It had never occured to me that detonation would wreck the bearings.. I always thought it would burn a hole in a piston or something.

 

450hp? at sub 5k RPMs? Seriously? I know some people have recommended it... but for anyone questioning WHY people look to brand X engines, there is your reason.

A realistic 450hp and 500ft that will survive street/strip duty should be a walk in the park with stock non exotic components.

I guess i'm just stressing myself out, as that is roughly what i'm aiming for with my build which will be using stock stuff on a shoestring budget, and i really hope I'm not the next guy in line posting pics of a wiped out 455.

 

When making power over stock levels you have to remember........it's not if it's going to break, but when it's going to break.

 

Very correct statement. It's part of the HP game and you pay to play.

 

Here is how the main bearings looks like

 

And this thing had good oil pressure?????

 

20psi really warm climbing to 45psi when driving,thats why i was actually skratching my head brand new mechanical autometer cauge.

 

Assuming the bearing tolerances were ok, aren't the 455's sensitive to oil return (particularly when run hard), looks like your bearings starved.

 

Since you're having to go with rods and crank reconditioning anyway, and don't know the shape of the pistons/rings yet, maybe, if you've someone that can do some assembly and clean a block, you should consider one of those stroker kits!
Pre-balanced and complete, might even end-up being cheaper than re-doing your stock pieces, by the time all is said and done, even with shipping!
Check the catalogs for pricing!!

 

Yes im leaning towards the Eagle crank and rods if everything goes like i have in mind im gonna soon have a complet balanced rotating assembly from Mark.

 

I know Eagle makes complete rotating assembly kits,but you still need to have everything checked,and possibly have machining done to the crank.Many companies will advertise the parts as "ready to install",but they rarely are.

 

I know,just recieved an e-mail from Mark explainig me the same thing about the crank but in my guts it justs better than a 30+ year old crank or am i wrong there? hope i can reuse my pistons though.

 

I really don't know how to respond to this. By no means do I mean to discredit anyone nor am I trying to start an argument...I merely want to open this discussion.

Are you saying that the Oldsmobile engineers built an engine that is pushing 80% of what it is capable of handling from the factory? That the rods and crankshaft are at 80% of their maximum strength right out of the factory?

I agree that going with aftermarket rods and crank will definitely make the bottom end stronger. But at 450 HP (80 HP over stock) are you really at that critical point at which billet rods and crank are necessary? I really don't think so. There are many reputable builders that will push stock bottom end components to 600 HP with a simple shot peen and balancing.

I raise this point out of paranoia because I just spent a lot of money building a stock bottom end 455. By this rational, I just wasted $10K on this engine. I have to say my friend, you have me a little worried. I have yet to crank this engine as I am waiting for the car to return from paint...but if I run down my parts list it is slightly more aggressive that Panos set up, yet it too has a stock "N" crank and rods. I did have the whole thing shot peened and balanced, but I'm sure Mark did the same.

Let's discuss this, preferably before I start my engine and run into the same problem as Panos. I would rather pull it apart now and replace rods and crank if you really think it needs them...I'm just hoping that you are being a little overly cautious.

Steve

 

I am also ivery nterested in this thread because I am in the same situation with my 425 hp 400 . I have had my motor rebuilt twice complete with full machine work and balancing only to have it give up twice with less than 3000 miles total, 2000 miles the first time and 400 the second. I was told that it was detonation the first time and have yet to open it up the second time. The part I don't understand is how it can detonate to the point of catastrophic failure without hearing it ping and why haven't I had this problem before? I have been through various Olds engines (both rebuilt and very used) in my car for the past 26 years and have only had this problem the last two times. I am running the same basic set up throughout with minor upgrades each time.

Any information is greatly appreciated before I start in on my engine for a third time.

 

By the time you hear it detonate,it's already been pounding away.

 

If I may guys,

First like Nick said, at this hp level it's not if it's going to break but when it will break. Detonation is extremely harmful and in a very short period of time, hence my finding with just one 6 second dyno pull.

No you don't need a billet crank and aftermarket rods for 425 hp necessarily. The stock 455 cranks have been run to 600hp over and over. However the rods are a different story, because 40 year old rods will flex more than the new stuff, plain and simple. I don't think having better rods in Panos' 455 would have necessarily prevented this, I still believe it was a fuel/detonation issue. But having better, stiffer rods would help in the long run, jmo.

Please remember 40 years ago we had much better fuel, much more resistant to detonation and even light pinging, prolonging engine life. I didn't hear the first ping when we did the bad pull, nothing. Plus if you have too much advance at cruise it will have the same effect and still be a silent killer.

In the future, I will promote the use of an aftermaket rod at these hp levels. And on a monitary note, by the time you press the old rods off, install new bolts, recon them then press the new pistons on you're almost at the price of a set of new ones, and you can float them, another hp benefit.

Hope this helps.

 

Mark, do you think the Edelbrock heads will help fight detonation? I have KB IC886's and Edelbrock heads making 10.63:1 true compression. I am also using a mechanical advance only MSD billet distributor curved to come in around 2500 RPMs maxing out around 3500 RPM. I appreciate your help, I'm trying to get a warm fuzzy about my set up before I lose my mind

 

Generally,an aluminum head can dissipate heat better,so you can get away with a little more compression,or crappy gas,compared to an iron head.

 

I know, I just want to hear it from You and Mark...still getting that warm fuzzy lol!

 

It's a rod...mines did the same thing! Came straight out of the oil pan.

 

X2 on what Brian said.
Kyle's 455 (it's on here) had the same piston and heads, and had about 10.3:1. Ran it at 30 degrees, made 447, upped it to 32 and made 451, I left it there cuz we only gained 4hp.
But his has a fairly small cam on a tight lobe sep (234/240 on a 108) which will have more low rpm cylinder pressure that something larger, what cam do you have? If you're worried then do something around Panos', 238/246 on a 110, you could even do it on a 112 to release more low end cyl pressure.

 

I'm running a 244/252 on a 110...556/574 lift - mechanical flat tappet

Too late on the cam, it's a done deal...engine is complete...about to get my DaVinci Carburetor in a few days

 

Your cam would be almost identical to the hyd in Kyles. When you go from a hyd to a solid you need to add about 10 degrees duration to equal the same so your mech flat tappet is equal to about a 234/242 hyd. What centerline was it installed at?

 

I'm glad to hear that the problem was easily diagnosed. Nothing worse than chasing ghosts on a hunch.

I blew up 2 motors before I finally decided to get into engine building and learn for myself. There are so many things you can do wrong and ruin the whole engine if you miss any one detail.

Even in a case like this.....an engine builder could build you a perfect engine, and it can all be wiped out 10 minutes after putting gas in it.....or setting the timing.



Sorry for the confusion with my previous question......

I was asking "My442" if he ever found himself an engine builder.
Although I do find it admirable Mark that you jumped right up and said "My engine"

 

Oh hell...I don't know...hang around and I'll go look real quick. I've got it written down somewhere.

 

PS...if I only make 450 hp I'm going to be PISSED! I spent $10K on my engine...I wanted 600 hp, and I built it to what was supposed to be 600 hp.

 

So I don't have it written on the sheet I got from Nickens...I may be wrong, the machine shop was done with it back in Jan 2010. I wanna say I remember him telling me it came in straight up and didn't need to be adv/ret...but honestly, I've been through 6 months of chemo since then. That could have been a dream I had while I was asleep for 6 months. Who knows?

It's an Engle cam...

 

As long as you didn't have Mondello build it,there should be plenty of power in it.Way too many over-hyped engines came out of there with supposedly this & that,and they went nowhere,and they spent more than you.Imagine how pissed they were.

Back to the rod material topic for a minute.A rod with less flex or give will only add more punishment to the bearings,upon detonation.I know this isn't an apples-to-apples comparison,but titanium rods are very stiff,and known to be hard on bearings for this reason.However,you would not want a rod that is distorting either.

 

You need more cam more compression and serious heads for 600hp

 

Really? Not even close? The Edelbrocks were strip ported...the intake was ported...

Maybe I should pull the heads off and have them ported for all out competition. But still, you say the cam isn't big enough. Man...I wish I had been a member of this site when I started building this thing.