jRoofgunner

I need a high flow water pump for my engine: 468 cid. It has a four row radiator, clutched fan, fan cowl/shroud, etc. However, after testing the radiator water went to 200F and gauge attached to the intake manifold(where the WT sensor goes) was approaching 200 so I shut the motor off. The thermostat was working as lots of water was being circulated. The pump that is on the engine is a MTC CP773 (stock) and has a hub height of 5.09. Of the three that will fit that motor, this one is the shortest. I saw the Flowkooler pumps on Summit but I would like to know if anyone could recommend a high volume pump. The motor is a "D" block, and the fan clutch is a Hayden HY2947. So, if you've been there done that, please let me know and thanks in advance.

Fun71

Be aware that in addition to the three different length pump snouts, there are two different sized hose fittings. 1970 and older have 2" a fitting whereas 1971 and newer have 1.75" fitting, so make sure whatever pump you get matches your lower hose and radiator fitting or you'll have another project with getting the lower hose to fit. From what I have seen, most of the aftermarket high flow pumps are for the 1971-newer applications.

1970-older = 2" water pump fitting, 1.75" radiator fitting.
1971-newer = 1.75" water pump fitting, 1.5" radiator fitting.

edit: I forgot to say 200ºF is not too hot, so don't get overly concerned about that.

oldcutlass

I don't understand the after testing part?
What is your temp going to during long term idle?
What is your temp at cruising speed?
What temp thermostat is in your car?

nicks1966

To the best of my knowledge no one makes a 5.09 high flow pump.
200 is not hot so I don't think you have a problem

jRoofgunner

I have not driven the car yet. The red light came on showing high temp during running at idle. The thermostat is a 180F. Cutlassfi built the motor and it runs fine. Hi-Temp scares me. So I put a temp gauge sensor in the intake port where the idiot light sensor goes and I used a temp sensor wire that is used with my ohm meter in the radiator. We started the car and let it run. The water temp in the radiator went up to 200-205 and the intake gauge showed 195 and was climbing so I shut the motor down. So I am putting in a short Flowkool 1575 and this will be the same length as the one in the car now (5.09 length). This is the shortest of the three lengths mentioned in the previous posts. Hopefully this will solve the problem and make the motor run cooler. I just want to be cautious.

oldcutlass

How long did it take to get to 200-205? You may have just had an air pocket if went up quickly. Extended idle temps of 200-210 are not uncommon.

jRoofgunner

I didn't time it but I would say at least 10 minutes. I thought of an air pocket. I had the rad cap off and added coolant as it needed it. Of course the motor is new and the dyno runs show at that time 160F but they don't put a thermostat in for the dyno run. The motor came with a long pump and of course due to clutch, fan, four core radiator(it's a stock one and J & B radiator in ABQ built it) so it is all good) it didn't fit. The 1575 is 5.125 verses the 5.09 one that's in it. I used the Amsoil coolant. The shop temp at the time I ran it was/is about 65 F. The other thing is the cooling system has to cool the 200R4 transmission. I will pass on the results of what happens with the high flow pump when I get it put in. I sure hope it works.

olds 307 and 403

Is the clutch fan new? If not, another good part to replace. Are you using an auxiliary cooler for the 2004R, you should be.

jRoofgunner

Here is the update with the Flowkooler pump and 180 stat. First of all to answer previous questions: Everything is new: big fan, clutch, 442 shroud, hoses, engine is new, 4 row radiator built by J&B radiator in ABQ(new tanks). The FlowKooler pump looks like an original pump EXCEPT the impeller is quite different from the previous standard pump. It looks like a work of art and is blue in color. I'm not an engineer but it looks like something built with CNC and took some time to make or design. They claim it will pump twice the water a idle as a regular pump and won't cavitate.

Results: After making sure the rad was void of air pockets and verifying the temp gauge accuracy I ran the car hood up, in the shop at 70F at idle and after 30 min it hit 195F. I had a cheesey anti-freeze bottle hooked up to the radiator and none of the fluid came out the port by the radiator cap.(I'm going to get a nicer one(bottle). Timing is set at 12 BTDC at 850. The carb is set the way it came off the dyno.

Cutlassfi recommended trying a 160 stat and a post from one of the other members on this site said he used a 160 and it lowered the water temp more, so I will try this.
The only other observation I noticed between the original run with a standard pump and no stat and the latest one described herein is that when running the car now there is a great difference in two things: there is a hell of a big difference in the temp between the top and bottom hoses with the new pump and before the heater put out a lot of heat, and now it's only a little warm. I will post the results of the 160. I will put a temp gauge in the car. Once I find what the bottom line is on the temp I will contact Mr. Janis (he built the transmission) regarding a cooler. I called Bowler Transmission(where I got the TV cable system, lines from) and asked about a cooler. Their opinion was that since the car is only going to be used for car shows, Sunday drives, and the like I didn't need a cooler as long as the radiator was doing it's job. They said I could put one on but for now I want to get the cooling system the best I can and will go from there.

My442

This is what I have as a cooling combination, and the car runs 180 degrees even in 90 degree ambient temperatures:

1. TRW water pump for A/C car
2. Robert Shaw High Flow 180 degree thermostat
3. Factory fan shroud and all rubber flaps
4. Factory 7 blade thermostatic fan
5. Alumitech 2 core radiator
6. Spring inside the lower radiator hose
7. Using 25% antifreeze and 75% water, with 1 bottle of Amsoil Coolant Boost

A temperature gun on the thermostat housing reads 175 to 180 degrees after a 2 hour cruise.

CRITICAL: Timing (static and centrifugal) must be set properly. The A/F ratio must be as well.

83hurstguy

You can also try going from ported to manifold vacuum for the distributor. This would give you more timing at idle... if you get up closer to 16-18, it may help drop the temp a bit more.

VC455

If you are seeing high coolant temperature at steady load or at idle and the thermostat is fully open, the thermostat opening temperature is irrelevant.

A thermostat allows faster warmup and determines the minimum operating temperature. The maximum operating temperature depends on radiator, fan, clutch, water pump, timing, etc.--all the things you are already concentrating on.

There is one advantage to having a lower temp thermostat. If you are applying a high load for a limited time, starting with a lower coolant temperature will reduce the maximum coolant temperature.

For example, if you want 180° coolant at the end of the drag strip, you probably should leave the line with 160° coolant.

My442

If the centrifugal springs inside the distributor are weak, you will get too much mechanical advance.

I chased a problem like yours for months until I discovered that problem.

oldcutlass

Your mechanical advance would come in too quickly. The amount is specific to the weights not the springs and advance plate movement.

olds 307 and 403

What car is this in? Factory pullies? What brand of thermostat? You need to take it on a run and see if high speeds does the same thing. I will be Mr Janis will say get a big auxiliary stacked plate trans cooler.

jRoofgunner

65 Cutlass, factory pully, Flowkooler thermostat

jRoofgunner

Question: As far as I can tell the only place to put a cooler is in front of the existing radiator. (I will call Janis today). But there's more to that. Assume one that covers the whole front of the radiator. Now I have cut air flow to the 4 row radiator. So will that result in an ineffectient cooling system for the motor. Cool transmission, hot engine?? Or will it take a load off of the radiator and help cool the engine and transmission? Or would a cooler that covers 1/2 or 1/4 work? You see I know from this experience that I have to ask the right questions to get the right answers and what you don't know what you don't know causes further problems. I can easily tie in a cooler. The reason I asked was that I called J&B radiator and asked how effective would it be to put in an electric fan in front of the radiator. The answer was that more often than not they are not that effective and can hinder cooling. What I don't want to do is install something and either have it not work, or have it work and create another problem. So from experience I guess the bottom line is: what is the net effect of adding a transmission cooler? If it will help cool everything fantastic!! By looking at the front of the car it looks like I could easily accommodate a cooler of about 11 inches wide and about 12 to 14 high. The cooler is assume would be hooked in with the main radiator. Please suggest make, etc. Due to the center support (where the hood latch is) there is only 2 inches or a little less of clearance so to put one that covers the whole front of the radiator..................??? I think not and reduced are flow to the main??

jRoofgunner

Janis answer: He told me if I am going to race the car a separate transmission would be the way to go. The type of torque converter (stall) can make a difference in the transmission temp. when running the car on a dragstrip. I told him I am not racing the car. (He races Gran national Buicks with auto trans) He said wait and run the car and see how it reacts with the engine cooling and use the Amsoil fluid. And go from there. So for right now I am going to work with the engine coolant and follow the suggestions with tune, timing, etc. I have gained in these responses.

shiftbyear

Dyno coolant is easily controlled via a large water supply which can maintain any temperature they want. Pulley size will turn the water pump faster or slower at idle depending on the diameter. You could pull the thermostat out and see if it makes a difference. Good luck.

Fun71

That sounds like a HUGE transmission cooler to me. I think most are around 10 long x 4 - 8 wide.

jRoofgunner

To make a long story short I pulled the 180 supposed "high flow" thermostat that I paid $27 for from Summit and decided to test it along with the 160 from Jegs(Mr. Gasket and $16.50). I had talked to a tech at Jegs and he said to try the Mr. G as they've had good luck with them.

So with the wife as a witness, a pan of water, accurate thermometer and the thermostats equally placed in the pot I turned on the gas. Guess what? There is more than just temp difference. Whether it be make I don't know. They look a like in most ways and I won't take time nit pick the way the look BUT there is one big difference. When opened the supposed "high flow" model isn't so high flow. I would call it low flow. The 160 opened on time and at least 3 or4mm more than the 180. I didn't measure it but you sure could tell by looking at it and it sure was enough to make a difference. Possibly enough to negate a high flow pump. So there is more to a thermostat than how it is rated.

76olds

Do you recall how much flow was travelling through the rad while purging the air locks out after everything was installed ?
A 160 deg stat will open up more than an 180 or 195 , What PSI is your rad cap--- This will make a difference believe it or not .

jRoofgunner

The cap is 16lbs per what it says on the cap. I can't tell you how much flow was going through while purging but was going; that pump pushed a lot of water. I just kept adding water in a big funnel and when the bubbles stopped I pulled it out and put the cap on. Then I let the motor go for 20 or so minutes. Then when everything cooled I removed the cap and the water was at the top of the neck and none had gone out the over flow. I'm gonna bet that with the 160, adjusting the carb, etc. I should be good. I will post the results.

76olds

The 16lb cap is good, if it was 18 I would have said it was a to much, Mark built that engine, so if anything it could be carb or timing related . However, I really think the circulation, purging process will be the issue.
You need to run the engine with the cap off until its fully warmed up , the t-stat must be open with plenty of coolant flow.
When you say .. you just kept adding coolant in a big funnel until the bubbles stopped... that tells me it wasn't done properly, especially with a 4 row rad !!!
I don't have time to type out the proper procedure at the moment, however their are several older threads in which I myself and several others here have posted the correct way on doing this.
Maybe another member will have the time to post the procedure here, it should have pushed coolant out of the filler neck before continuing to add, you won't see any bubble's just big surges of coolant coming out the filler neck and you need to stand back... while the system is beginning the purging itself... Again much more so with a 4 row , and high flow pump.
Also as others mentioned 200 isn't hot but with a 180 t-stat 185-190 would be the norm depending on the ambient temp.
I hope this helps
Eric

jRoofgunner

Update: I got the temp gauge, oil pressure gauge and the 160 stat put in. I also got a nice looking "water bottle" overflow that I put on an "L" bracket that I bolted onto one of the fender well bolts(with a nut on the bottom side for extra security). It looks like a fancy flask and it is sort of hidden. We started the car with cap off the radiator and added fluid as needed and let it run at 850+/- rpm. After 30 min it got up to about 195 and the fluid was full to the neck. Then I got in the drivers seat and increased the rpm to about 1200 1500 rpm. and watched the temp gauge. Within 20 or 30 seconds it dropped quickly to 180 and appeared to be going lower. The heater put out heat; warm but not hot. The radiator wouldn't take anymore water. I had the cap on and off a couple of times. I am going to get a new one. No matter how long on or off did I see any pressure build up. I am going to get a new cap. I also put the vacuum gauge on the carb and I couldn't better Marks settings, but I did set the fast idle properly. I also learned what a "timed port" does. On the Quickfuel SS830 there are two vacuum ports on the left bottom front and one on the choke side(timed port). According to QuickFuels instructions of the two on the front the right one is full vacuum and the left one is timed. I found this NOT to be the case. The left one full vacuum and the right one is timed. I use the side one for the dist vac.

oldcutlass

I assume which port on the carb is ported or manifold vacuum depends on whether they are referring to you facing the front of the engine or facing the grill. Are you using manifold or ported for your distributor advance?

olds 307 and 403

I chased cooling issues on my 403. One was the Mr Gasket high flow 160 thermostat. It would flow water at idle, at speed it would nearly close off and temps would hit 240! The Robert Shaw high flow thermostat's have never had that issue, only one failed to close and no inside heat. Others have had this issue with the Mr Gasket thermostat. I tried a 7 blade fan with new clutch with a shroud an Dodge Stratus electric fans, still had issues. Pulley size makes a huge difference, my under drive pulleys caused me grief. Look at A/C to non A/C crank pullies, the A/C one is much larger to overdrive the water pump. Also a large 2 core aluminum rad will equal or better a 4 core rad, usually due to less restriction for flow inside and better air flow through less cores. I am surprised about the Robert Shaw thermostat, as said only one failed for me and not in a disastrous way like the Mr Gasket thermostat.

jRoofgunner

I was told to use the timed port on the choke side. Facing, from the front of the car there are two ports, as described. So in all there are two timed and on full vacuum. At first, according to the carb instruction sheet, I connected the vacuum gauge to the one they said was full vacuum. But I noticed that there wasn't but maybe a half pound that hardly moved the meter. But if I moved the throttle then I had vacuum. Then I put the hose on the left one and THEN I had full vacuum; that's when I realized the instruction sheet had them backswords'.

OLDS 307/403: So from my experience yesterday after increasing the rpm from 850 to 1200 or 1300 and seeing the temp drop, then it would seem if I could find a crank pully off an AC car then I should get one. Can these be obtained anywhere???

oldcutlass

I would use the manifold vacuum port, once connected lower the rpm to where you want it. It will run cooler at idle.

olds 307 and 403

https://shop.rocketracingshop.com/68...R-PS-RR0-3.htm
It shows a 1.5" larger crank pulley than Non A/C pullies. Either this or find factory A/C pullies.

jRoofgunner

Thank-you. I have noted your suggestions. Of course I would have to get the pully for the fan which would have to be a little smaller. Right now there is hardly any clearance between the crank and fan pully. I'd have to check to make sure the slightly smaller fan pully would not alter where the fan/clutch is as there is not much room between the end of the clutch and the rad. fins. But for right now I am going to order tires, and try the car on the road and it needs to get aligned. Then if it needs it I will check the pully thing.

76olds

I'm surprised after idling for 30 min you didn't need to add any coolant, especially once you gave it more RPM. I always begin filling the rad up to the top of the trans cooler, fire up the engine and leave it running on high idle for about 15min, slowly adding/ maintaining that level until I see circulation. Them turn the heat on max, once I have heat I begin filling it close to about 1 inch below the filler neck. Then kick it down off of high idle( at that point coolant usually purges out) Let it idle for a few more minutes until the coolant level drops and stays at a consistent level. Then, again, give it high idle , top off the coolant and cap it. Let run a few more minutes. Kick it back down off high idle and allow the rad to push some pressurised coolant into the overflow. Shut it down let cool and check both rad level and overflow bottle, top up as necessary.
I would run a 180 t-stat myself, helps burn off engine condensation quicker.
Its good to hear your temps are now under control . The overflow bottle will certainly help if their are any smaller air locks left in the system.

jRoofgunner

I guess I didn't explain but I did add anti-freeze during the whole time until it wouldn't hold any more and I will run it with the new radiator cap. As you saw from my posts, I learned NOT to trust a new thermostat just because it is new. I would advise to test it BEFORE putting it in a car. I had an incident with a Nissan Sentra a few years back. I noticed the temp gauge was riding higher than before but not overheating. I gambled it was a sticking thermostat. I put a new one in, and the temp gauge returned to normal.
I am very sure the Olds system is purged of air. When the car cooled off, the fluid level was still at the top.>>>>>>>>I gotta get to the shop; I'm replacing the stat, hoses, and anti-freeze in my New Holland TL80 tractor. Had to remove the "bonnet" with the engine hoist to do it. GEE, now I know why BOUGHT the engine hoist to pull/install the engines in the Cutlass!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

matt69olds

jRoofgunner

Currently the car is on floor jacks. Tires will go on soon. I haven't checked it with a level but it looks like the front is a little higher. I had it that way for installation of the engine/transmission/detailing/sweeping, underneath. And yes, I ran it, left the cap off. When I put the tires on and have the jack in the man cave, I'll jack it up and do one last check. Hey, at least with my NH TL80 tractor the rad cap is the highest and it was easy to burp that, does it by itself!!!!