Sometimes troubleshooting through the internet is difficult, I apologize. Vintage Chief and others seems to have nailed your issue.

 

awesome vintage chief, I will give it try ASAP

 

Gentlemen: Maybe too long but I will try to sum up my findings so far and say the cause has not been found yet. There are 3 hypothesis in play Flex-plate, Starter and Engine as possible causes of the noise in the 1966 425.

Flexplate: Bolts checked and are not broken nor loose. I am attaching a short video taken today of the Flexplate in motion. It seems to be a wobble in sync with the noise, you can see it in the oscillating red line on the edge facing the converter. It is red because that face catches some paint from the engine work and its visible because when it flex the face becomes visible to the camera. Thats my interpretation. Also I understand the Converter is not wobbling that much which may indicate an issue. I have zero experience on this so I cannot say at all is this is a normal flexing or a crack or else. Any help is appreciated. Note also that shortly after i took the video the noise almost gone away but the engine rattled and stop.

Starter: I am also attaching a second video where it clears shows up for me the pinion is disengaging and not touching the flex plate after cranking. I also carried on the test of loosening the bolts of the starter, around a couple of turns to see if the noise disappears but to no avail whatsoever. For me this cause is ruled out unless someone has a thought on the contrary of course.

Engine: I have removed both valve covers and do not find visually any broken spring or rocker arm misbehavior. I performed a compression test on all cylinders with almost perfect results of 150 psi on all of them. My wishful thing biased me towards the other hypothesis but I need to focus more on the engine since that could make things much worse if i continue running the engine. What else I can check without taken apart heads and intake?. Any help here is tremendously necessary.

Regards, and as always so much Thanks for your advise!, Raul

 

Remove that starter and install the appropriate shim/spacer.
And, take a picture of the page and/or figure you're referring to in the CSM which demonstrates the shim/spacer and post here.

 

Dear Norm: Here you have it, I am more that willing to do that but may I ask you why?, the video is not clear enough?, which would be the appropriate shim? I am almost sure my car have none?, can anyone confirm?. Best Regards.

 

 

If the picture demonstrates the starter installation for a Delta 88 1966 Holiday Sedan equipped w/ a 425 cid engine then the shim is a REQUIRED piece of hardware. Engineers do not provide detailed installation hardware just to fill up pages of documentation. And, no the video is certainly not definitive. For the greatest portion of the video it shows nothing more than the casing. Pull the starter and examine the starter case and pinion to begin with.

 

Vintage Chief has helped so much with this. When following his advice and removing the starter, look carefully for tell-tale signs of anything that has been rubbing, This would include manually turning the flexplate a complete 360 degrees to look for clues. For all you know, while turning it, you may get a spot which lightly hangs up or goes 'click!' The solution is there, but being stubborn to reveal itself. That sound is way to hollow and light to be a major internal running component!

 

The starter needs to be removed to visualize (1) function, freedom of movement of the pinion, (2) wear on the leading edge of the pinion where it's very likely touching the flexplate and causing the noise, and (3) any other abraded surfaces where the flexplate might be hitting the starter case. Depending where you were to buy a starter, a new or rebuilt starter might come with shims or it might not come with shims. If it does not come with shims, they expect you will be using your own shims. Because the CSM demonstrates at least one shim is required, you need a shim.
NOTEWORTHY of the installation instruction sheet for a starter from Summit Racing is the following:

 

Raul - You know, you do have a couple of things which may be presenting some collateral damage here. I noticed you never replied to Joe's comment regarding installation of the motor mounts. Even if you used the original motor mounts, hopefully you made absolutely clear to have used the proper motor mount on the proper side of the engine as your car has a RH motor mount and a LH motor mount. Additionally, I am not clear how your engine shifted to the rear during your procedure.

All-in-all, it is appearing to me your issue is one of "alignment" or "misalignment" and not internal to the engine.

Olds 425 engine displaced after jack up, Help needed!

 

Dear Norm: I believe you are becoming upset, not sure why but please don't, I have taken very seriously all your recommendations and tried to confirm within my possibilities, but also as an engineer I do not tend do things without a reason behind, please take a look at this very short video, it clearly shows the pinion is retracted, if you still are not convinced I may give it a try to take it off with it is a PITA for me due to logistical limitations. I will also like your take on the flex plate video. Regards. Raul

 

Norm: I believe i have used them correctly, its been 3 years since then, is there anyway I can check. I do not recall forgetting answering Joe Padavano if that is the case my sincere apologies. I remember at that time some gents believe it was possible the displacement, once I release the engine in position the holes in the tranny support aligned correctly. Is there any test i can carry on now to check for any misalignment?.Regards. Raul.

 

Here is a "thought". Let's say you have installed the motor mounts incorrectly, the RH motor mount is on the LH side and vice versa. Let's say also you had your engine slip backwards, and let's say it is not "correctly" aligned from the engine motor mounts rearwards to the transmission cross member mounts.
Now, insert a flexplate and a torque converter into the middle of this possible misalignment scenario. That flexplate may be significantly out of alignment, as might your torque converter.

It doesn't do us any good at this point to address how you got there (if this is the issue or a portion of the issue), but you "MIGHT" try this for starters. Loosen up the transmission motor mounts until the bolts are actually quite loose. Since you're not going to engage the propeller (drive) shaft, and you're going no where on four wheels, you might find if you loosen the entire transmission to chassis/frame assembly the noise might lessen. Honestly, I have no idea whatsoever if this would work. But there's no harm in trying "something" and it's the best case scenario I can think of at the moment. Unless you also want to remove the motor mounts and ensure they're installed correctly. Again, I'm beginning to think this is a misalignment issue - somewhere.

 

I can easily check that and let you know, Any suggestion on the engine side for checking is welcome while we try this.

 

Raul - Contrary, not becoming upset in the slightest. Modestly frustrated the plot thickens the more is revealed regarding engine transmission alignment.

You don't have to worry about any apologies to Joe, I was only mentioning it because I don't believe you got back to him on that thread confirming you did or you did not use the correct motor mount on the correct side of the engine; thereby leaving one to wonder what is that status of the motor mounts.

 

The possible misalignment of an engine to the transmission and/or to the frame is not something I have ever experienced to be honest about it. And, I've pulled plenty of engines and transmissions on a wide variety of automobiles - NOT as a professional, certified, full-time mechanic - but as an automobile enthusiast. So, I'm venturing into uncharted territory here. But, I believe you can suspect the transition from the coupling of the transmission to the engine requires significant alignment - tolerances of what magnitude are acceptable I have absolutely no clue. I do know there is a 1/16" alignment of your starter to the engine. How to address alignment of the engine? I am clueless.

 

I reviewed your most recent video. To ensure we're on the same page here, I am NOT suspecting the pinion gear is "engaged" into the flexplate. I suspect the outer leading edge of the pinion gear is contacting the flexplate and making that noise as is demonstrated in the YouTube video I provided to you in Post #40. The leading edge of the pinion is what is touching the flexplate, the pinion is not engaged, it is rubbing against the flexplate.

 

Raul,
Where are you located ?

 

Raul - I'm thinking this is the scenario. The leading edge (red arrow) of the pinion is contacting the flexplate as the flexplate rotates. As the flexplate rotates & contacts the leading edge of the pinion, the noise you hear is the sound of the pinion moving back and forth (blue arrows) along the armature (bendix assembly e.g. clutch housing). There exists just enough pressure/force on the pinion to hold the pinion against the flexplate. The shatter is caused by the pinion simply moving up & down, or back & forth. So, as I was originally suggesting, if there was a shim between the starter and the engine mount, it might provide just enough of the 1/16" clearance required between the leading edge of the pinion and the flexplate.

 

I believe Raul resides in Buenos Aires Argentina. Raul habla bien el ingles.

 

I froze & captured your last video (Post #51). That flexplate may in fact be directly hitting the starter shaft (armature). Review that video again. Does it look like the flexplate is directly hitting the armature?

 

Play each video side-by-side. They all sound identical to me.
VIDEO-2020-08-04-19-54-41.mpg
IMG_3866.MOV

 

Dear Norm:

a) The Flex plate is not touching the armature, the perspective and blur is misleading in the snapshot and video, please see the attached video which clearly shows this is not the case, Also, if that were the case, it would be impossible for the pinion to engage, which it certainly does.

b) Understood now what you are thinking regarding the pinion behavior. I do not see the pinion moving at all while it is retracted on any of the videos I shoot.

c) Regarding my concern about shimming the starter I searched into the forum and found messages of people stating no shim are required, please look:

2olds "..If GM i never had to shim one make sure it has a original GM nose on it because i had a problem with a after market nose till i put a GM nose on.And make sure you use the original knurled starter bolts.https://www1.remyinc.com/webpictures...ps/TBSTR01.pdf

joe_padavano " ^^^This! Those starter shims are for the crappy Type C motors. Olds motors don't need them."

Run to Rund "...I have disassembled at least a couple dozen 66-7 400s and 425s, and 455s. None had a startershim. Fifty years later we have to wonder how many of the shims we might find are OEM." [img]file:///C:/Windows/TEMP/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image003.gif[/img]
68-W46 ".. I've never seen an Olds that needed a shim on the starter yet...."

Most probably the CSM drawing is a generic one and frankly it looks more a spacer than shim due to its thickness.

All in all I do believe my car didn't have any shim whatsoever since it is kept original as in 1966.

d) I do touched with my hand the starter and could not feel the problem was there, The hammer noise is pervasive and travels though all metal pieces but I do not feel any special vibration on the starter, I loosened the bolts and nothing happened.

Anyway and having said all this I will today take out the starter and look into it as well as do a final and detailed inspection on the Flex plate, if all this is to no avail we should consider thinking the problem resides elsewhere, Noise like many symptoms can be very misleading and I really want to rule the Engine as a cause first and foremost, since failing to do so could be catastrophic. I do many here believe the Engine is not the culprit because of the characteristic of the noise but the iPhone mic could be misleading, being in the field close to the engine i can tell you guys is scaring to me. Also there is a correlation between the noise and the engine behavior, after finishing shooting one of the videos the noise almost gone away and later the engine began to rattle and stop altogether. So again and independent of all this research please any hint on what else to test and do to rule out the engine as the cause of the noise is desperately needed.

I do reside in Buenos Aires, Argentina, which as you could imagine make things a little more complicated to say the least. I am a retired engineer with a special admiration for American engineering of the 50's and 60's. I own the Delta 88 Holiday Sedan which I bought in 1996 with only 20k original miles, its an export version with the speedometer in km! and comfortron equipped . What a pleasure of a car to drive!. (BTW if you happen to look a the series in NETFLIX called 'EL CHAPO" about the Mexican drug dealer, I can tell you that exact car in model and color is the star of the show!!). I also own a 67 Toronado of which I was the third owner, the first owner brought it from the States and was a guy who built one of the largest Sky centers in the country and I presume it was because of its ability to drive under snowy conditions. My son work and lives in NYC so I generally visit the States twice every year.

Well That's all from now, back to work to see if we can solve this problem.

Regards

Raul

 

Raul,
This is the confusing part to me about this entire ordeal. If it ran fine for the first few times then I would seriously doubt that the noise would be from the starter or flexplate. It would be very unusual for something in that area to come loose or change all of a sudden. I also would not associate that noise with something in the transmission either but you could unbolt the torque converter from the flexplate and pull it back into the transmission and start the engine. That would rule out the transmission for sure.

The other thing that has not been suggested is to remove the oil filter and cut it open to look for bearing material. I am working on a 425 in the shop right now that had a tapping noise. I have listened to a lot of engines in the last 40 years and i would have bet dinner that the noise was in the valve train but the owner could not find anything wrong there. I had him pull the filter and we cut it open and found quite a bit of bearing material in it. Now that i have the engine completely disassembled it turns out that the noise was a connecting rod bearing

I dont know what type of test equipment the local repair shop have but in this area almost all of the better ones have an oscilloscope for testing. Using a sound probe and syncing it to the ignition system they can almost tell you exactly where the noise is coming from

Thats another thought.

 

BillK: When I first run the car after 3 years it started just fine, i could time it perfectly and stable. For a week I ran it 5 to 10 minutes 2/3 times a day with no issues. Then one day I hoist the car so the wheels will not touch the floor so I can purge the power steering easily , I did that and the engine run ok. After that the first run i did was rough because i forgot to connect the vacuum hose of the power brake, reconnect it start it, a coupe of seconds ok and the all of a sudden the noise. Not sure if all of this is related but need to mention in case. Thanks for all the suggestions. I can do the flywheel and oil filter for sure, let me see how it goes. I do have myself and oscilloscope and I will research that test to see if I can do it.

 

Also BillK, the compression test was perfect on all cylinders, does this rules out the valve train?

 

Raul,
If the compression test was the same on all cylinders I would think that would rule out valve train. The noise does not really sound like valve train either now that I have listened to it.

 

Thanks BillK, it was almost exactly the same on all cylinders at 140/150psi. I will do first the oil filter test, its easy and quick.

 

Not easy nor quick!, I can’t get out the oil filter it’s kind of stuck, I am sure I put it ina little more tighter than finger tight, is this a bad sign?, I think I will end up Broking it if I push harder!

 

Disregard previous email, filter out, I will proceed to cut it in the middle

 

Raul & Bill - It certainly is a peculiar situation. A couple of things:
(1) I've noticed Raul mention at least on two occasions this occurred directly after he (a) hoisted the front-end of the vehicle for PS work where he also had the booster vacuum disconnected & (b) he lowered the vehicle back to the ground (he forgot to hook up the booster vacuum line but I think he hooked up the vacuum line either before or after he set the vehicle back on the ground) and the noise began to develop at this point in time. I can't imagine just hoisting the front-end or forgetting to hook-up the booster vacuum line would have any bearing on this issue; yet, it has been mentioned on at least two occasions and I'm suspicious as to why this might have any bearing whatsoever. OK, I'll mention it because it's so absolutely completely outrageous but someone has to ask it. Did you lose a tool during this event? Has a piece of metal, or a tool become lost somewhere? There, I asked it - someone had to.
(2) I've always thought the compression test was best suited for determining the health of piston rings and your compression test is certainly acceptable and within range. I think a complete leak-down test is better suited for determining valve condition - just my opinion. If you're thinking of moving away from the area of the torque converter/flexplate, if you have a vacuum gauge I'd think about performing a vacuum test which can mildly lead to determining if valves are leaking. If you get a VERY erratic reading where the needle rapidly & continuously jumps between 14" Hg - 19" Hg it's often a sign of valves not seating, valves leaking and/or weak valve springs. In any case, if you do not get a very steady vacuum reading and instead get very erratic needle swings it can point to valves. Which may assist in what to consider next. Fail this, I think a full leak-down test would be next. A vacuum test is very easy to perform and it might provide some assistance.
(3) I like Bill's idea of uncoupling the flexplate from the torque converter to rule out the transmission. It would not rule out the flexplate itself, but it would remove the coupling of the converter to the flexplate.

This is a tough one guys.

Raul - I have seen El Chapo - good movie.

 

I"m not sure if this was suggested or not. I have seen several cases where the Flexplate Cracks around the crank bolt circle and makes a clicking or knocking sound. the only way to really see this is to pull the trans, sometimes you might be able to get a mirror or bore scope in there to take a look. just throwing it out there.

 

Gents: I took out the filter cut it in half and I could not detect anything metallic, I am planning to stretch all the paper and look in detail but in principle all seems pretty clean. Also disengaged the converter and ran the engine, the hammer noise is still there. Check the flexplate with my face at 6 inches of it, turn it around cranking and I could not see any cracks whatsoever, tomorrow I will shoot a video perpendicular to the axis to show the wobble which exist but will ask you guys to tell me if that is normal or not. Also tomorrow I will pull out the starter to check and do the vacuum test. Thanks for all your support. Raul

 

Ah, sorry Vintage Chief, I do not recall loosing anything but I am too also worried about this. I was thinking of removing the distributor to see if through the hole I can check or pick up something, seems a good idea?. VC, if you saw El Chapo you saw my car!

 

No metal in oil filter is great news. Good for you on uncoupling the flexplate from the converter. That removes the transmission itself from being an issue.

 

I thought about the bottom of the distributor long ago and thought nothing of interjecting it into the conversation. The only thing which came to mind at the time was the oil pump shaft came loose. Generally, if the oil pump shaft comes loose it will fall into the oil pan and the oil pump will not pump since there is no shaft to turn the oil pump. If this were to happen you would not hear a noise. We know the distributor shaft is turning because the engine is running which means the distributor shaft is engaged into the camshaft and rotating at 1/2 engine speed. However, about that oil pump shaft. I've never seen it happen, but could the oil pump shaft have broken? Could the oil pump shaft have become bent? Is a broken oil pump shaft rotating and slapping against something? I don't believe it would be the oil pump itself as if the oil pump goes it produces whining sound and not a large jack hammer sound the type of which we're hearing. None-the-less, I can imagine a broken oil pump shaft. It's possible it broke right in the middle of the shaft, just below the camshaft, or just above the oil pump - but in any of these cases it would have to be slapping against something very hard. I really can't say Raul, I've neither seen nor have I ever heard what a broken oil pump shaft which still may be engaged into the distributor shaft or the oil pump sounds like. Anything at this point has a possibility.

I think your plan as you outlined above is a good one before you dive into the distributor, however. Except for where you stated you were going to remove the starter and then the vacuum test. I'm sure you meant to say that in reverse order.

 

Been reading along and i wonder if it could be the oil pick-up screen has shifted and is being hit by one of the rod caps?Had this happen to me once but wasn't quite the sound im hearing here.Another issue i had was cast iron crossover plugs loose causing a similar sound (if they were installed).

 

Gents: During my procedure of releasing the Flexplate from the Converter I ran into a scary incident I will like to share, It can be plain stupidity or a symptom something else is going wrong, Allow me to elaborate. I do not have a pit and I have no helper so I have to do this by myself, so I raised the car on one side, secure with a stand and slide myself under the car, assisted with a remote starter I crank the engine so I can align each bolt (3) in the sole position where I can reach them and comfortably unscrew them. Short burst of crank were needed for 2 of the 3 bolts, the last one resist to reach the position so several turns where needed to achieve the position. When all bolts where off I pushed back the converter into the tranny and proceed to get out of the car to turn the engine.It did not start and I cranked it for about 30 seconds in 2 or 3 intervals when I realize I forget to reconnect the coil wire I have disconnected for security reasons while cranking underneath. Do that. Turn the ignition on and instantly an Explosion, I mean and Explosion, my ears took a couple of minutes to recover and it was so loud neighbors from the block were the garage is located come to sew what happened. I was expecting some build up of fuel into the intake and possible a flame out of the carb but nothing like this, nothing out of the carb but smoke under the car. After inspection and some thinking I realize later that significant gas and gas fumes have accumulated into the escape and into the Muffler and make of itself a pretty nice bomb. Now, this is not the first time I cranked an engine for significantly time because of issues of any kind and the engine wont start, but never happen or occurred to me such thing could happen. What I am missing here?. As always help will be highly appreciated.

 

I’m thankful you are OK. I never jack a car onto one side. I either jack the entire front end, jack the entire rear end or jack the entire car and in all cases I place jack stands under the car.

Most likely you had fuel running out the carburetor especially if it was tilted sideways. The fuel continued to accumulate further as you continued to repeatedly try to start the car without the coil connected. Finally, with a large amount of fuel accumulated after you finally connected the coil one spark ignited the entire puddle of fuel and all fumes which had accumulated.

Glad it wasn’t Ammonium Nitrate. Those poor folks in Beirut.

 

Oh yes, that may explain the difference for sure, worst yet I ran the car inclined!. Lesson learned. Thanks VC!