Don't know if Holley still makes a mechanical fuel pump for Olds engines, but did, as had one on my car. Diaphram started to leak, so went with a Mallory 140 rear mounted electric set up. Main reason is, I don't drive the car much, and by running the pump for a few seconds, instantly fires right up. Also switch it off to stall out on empty carb bowels when parking. Can hear the pump, but really not very loud. If I rubber isolated it, probably wouldn't hear it at all.

 

The other problem I have seen with the Holley/Mr Gasket mechanical pumps,is the material that they are cast from.I have seen a few break or snap off at the neck area.Not cool.I have also seen some that barely pumped any fuel.We tested a few with a long hose & a 5 gallon bucket.Some pumped a good amount of fuel,and steady,but a few of them would just puke a little once in awhile.That being said,I don't think there is much quality control or consistency there.Maybe things have changed since.

 

I would have to agree. I have had a couple, also have seen many on other cars. Seems like everyone of them develops a external leak, or don't pump as much fuel as the OEM that the Holley replaced.

 

I am running one without issue but it could fly all too heck today. I think it would be better to run the Airtex #40736, or something the Olds vendors are offering. The Airtex looks to be better built than the Mr. Gasket/Holley. I also pulled the line and pumped fuel into a bucket before I realized my Quadrajet wasnt cutting it. It seemed to pump fine but I have heard of a lot of issues with leaking.

 

I spend a few days a week helping out at a local machine/speed shop. A good friend of mine owns it and I grew up learning from him, so 20 years later I'm still there helping etc. A fellow from a neighboring town rolled in tonight whom has drag raced for 25 years, he builds and races and has been a true street champion for 9 years standing. he has 3 cars he runs and 2 cars he is hired to do the work on and drive. I asked him the question of a mechanical pump vs elec. The answer I got was this.
"If I am building a mild car say 400-600 hp I always run a mechanical pump, unless we will see 8000 rpm plus then I run a booster pump, if your running a low rpm motor say 5000-6000 rpm a good mechanical pump will work well, Ive done it one hundreds of engines as long as you have proper lines.
I also asked him about G force failure, and I was told that you will not experiance G force failure until you see 9 second or lower times in your 1/4 et, if you do see failure you have a bad pump.
I like to double check my info so I ran it by a few others ThatI know that race and same opinion.
With the above being said I did get my elec pump, and the Prosystems carb will be here tomorrow.
I never heard a reply about one of the OP sending me a set of slicks. I never seen a reply of why AH64Pilot changed his story 3 times.
I will be taking my car to the dyno shop, with the new carb and the electric pump. If it runs lean i will install the elec pump and I hope to see the gains that AH64pilot did, .6 should be 60-100 hp which is awesome for a fuel pump change, not really possible, but I hope to see it if I am lean. I await the slicks from 380racer but dont expect it.
Sincerly DICK HEAD as AH64pilot calls me, which is probably right in his eyes, i exposed the fact that his faulty throttle cable helped his ET more than all that work to install a elec fuel pump then he called me names awwwwww.

 

Comming to terms with what you are is usually hard to do. Man this thread should have died a long time ago. Fwiw. Someone said the holley pumps and mr gasket chrome pumps aren't that great. I have never ran them. But I do run a summit brand mechanical pump. I have ran it for 3 years no issues. Unregulated pumps out 9 psi. Just thought I'd share that. And vette guy. If his car was starving for fuel his car did not see full hp/tq. Potential across the board. So adding a fuel pump might have not gained 60 hp or so alone but it let out the real potential of the engine. Stating that multiple parties support what you say specially over the internet is pointless because for all you know they are idiots not saying they are but to each their own. This have become a battle like atheist's vs catholics. Now everyone give each other a pat on the @ss good game now let's move on.

 

I agree with you, what bothers me is the statement that I and the OP will gain all this power and et by running an elec pump.
to sum it up what if i ran my car at the drag strip tomorrow, i was upset at my times, and blamed it all on my high gear, i order a 3:73 and in the mean time i see my throttle cable is stretched and i am not getting WOT, so I fix the cable and install the 3:73, I go back to the track and run.6 faster.
I give all credit to the 3:73 and tell everyone they need to run a 3:73 gear thats not accurate info!

 

I'm pretty sure if you called a fuel pump company magna fuel etc etc. And asked them if you could gain. .6 I'm pretty sure they will say some thing was wrong from the get go to get gains like that. I'm not taking sides by all means I don't know enough on the subject. But what I do know is on my set up going from mech. To elect. There will be no real gain in hp. Again to each their own. No need to preach one experience to many others because we all know every build had many many variables to it.

 

I really think ******** sums it up...that was pretty accurate. We could also say that your reading comprehension skills aren't very good and that you miss most, if not all, of what you read. There is also a lot being added to my words that were never intended, like saying you are going to gain .6 in a 1/4 mile. I said I gained that time, but it was because my pump wasn't working right or insufficient.

It's ok...you got your feelings hurt and cried to your buddies. And you bought an electric pump! Very nice! Hope you got your money's worth...take it easy Richard!

 

Steve I followed your build enough to know what you had going on. You had you gremlins but took care of them. The way I see it there is many ways to skin a cat. You just chose to get it over with and use a chainsaw. Nothing wrong with that.

 

I'm not worried about it. I'm actually having fun knowing that there is someone out there in the world so upset as to go buy a pump and test his car out just to prove someone else wrong. And I hope to God he doesn't see a damn thing...that'll just make it sweet.

Copper, you know me...I'm a laid back guy, and I usually don't bite on people's bs, but saying I changed my story and putting words in my mouth is a shot at my integrity, and I know a little something about integrity. I don't fly a $32 million dollar aircraft because I have a habit of lying to people. Jerko can say what he wants, he's the one making himself look desperate. I tried to give advice from my experience, nothing more. This guy is the one building it up into something it's not.

 

is"Copper, you know me...I'm a laid back guy, and I usually don't bite on people's bs, but saying I changed my story and putting words in my mouth"

March 25
"So we figured out why we had a hung idle at the racetrack, the cheapo Mr. Gasket throttle cable I had broke at the GM plastic clip right at the bracket. It made the cable kink and wasn't allowing the secondaries to open all the way"

August 20
"The throttle cable breaking caused a stuck (high) idle condition that was misleading. While replacing it with the lokar cable I believe it wasn't opening all the way, but there's no way to really tell. I made a 12.7 pass before the suspected breakage and a 12.7 pass after the hung idle (suspected breakage) so who knows"

August 27
"My throttle cable broke on the 2nd pass of the night. The 3rd pass was the quickest. And when I say the secondaries weren't opening all of the way, I'm talking about the last 1/16" to be fully vertical"

HMMM?

You have shown how laid back you are by telling me to STFU, and the name calliing. Fine example of laid back.
Prosystem carb should be here today, pump is here. The debate is whether a street car will see gains from an elec pump or not. I took your advice and picked up an elec pump. Now we shall see if it helps, if it does you will have my humble apology!
And by the way.... Your 3rd pass was the fastest due to your reaction time being so much better.

 

Any more shots taken and I am closing the thread which is a shame because I like the discussion topic.

 

[QUOTE=ah64pilot;447030]I really think ******** sums it up...that was pretty accurate. We could also say that your reading comprehension skills aren't very good and that you miss most, if not all, of what you read. There is also a lot being added to my words that were never intended, like saying you are going to gain .6 in a 1/4 mile. I said I gained that time, but it was because my pump wasn't working right or insufficient.

the previous WORD FOR WORD post regarding the cable statements and below WORD FOR WORD speak for themselves.

"So, the basis to my recommendation is that if you're spending $10K on an engine...why leave .6 seconds on the table because you don't want to run an electric pump."

it certainly looks like you said I was going to leave .6 seconds on the table because I didnt want to run an elec pump ??????? Or is that not what you said, and I am the one with poor reading skills?

" Steve is building a 450 - 475 hp engine...what is yours? If it's that or more and all you did was install a RobbMC pump I'm afraid you are probably robbing yourself some power."

"You think you have enough fuel...put on a set of slicks and take it down the track. I bet you'll change your mind. That Holley sucker pump is going to lose about 3.5 psi on your launch and won't ever catch up by the end of the 1/4 mile. So what you think is good for the street isn't really good when it comes down to maximizing your performance...which, if you read my last post is why I suggest using an electric pump. You put all that money into your engine, just to starve it of fuel? Give it all it wants and it'll wake up, I promise you."

 

DUDE NO ONE CARES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!! Just let it go.

 

If they know so much,then why are you running a Prosystems carb?You can take 10 guys at random,at a race track,and only one of them will have the correct carb combination on their car.Just because you build & drive race cars,doesn't mean you have the utmost experience.I see plenty of it every time I go out around here.Guys that have been doing it longer than I have been alive,and they still can't get their junk right.Those are the type of people you never ask advice from.Have I seen a car starve for fuel?Yes.How about when it goes up on the bumper,starves,then comes crashing down,bending the frame,and making a mess of everything else.That is where the G-force can have an effect.Not so much the ET of the car,but how hard it leaves.

 

If they know so much,then why are you running a Prosystems carb

elbow surgery last week.

I agree with everything you said! And wouldnt you agree that if such an event were to occur that the result would be greater than a loss of .05 in the 60 ft time?

 

isn't it hard to type with a bummed elbow rest that thing.

 

Not my elbow, the guy that I would normally use to build a carb. I do however LOVE the prosystems carb.
I apologize to all of the viewers of this thread as it has been long and drawn out, and a lot of drama.
I have absolutly no problem with AH64PILOT, I love his build and think he did a fantastic job and has a wicked car. We have a difference of opinion, to me its a friendly debate. I did copy and paste some of the quotes where the story changed and where he said things and then claimed he didnt say them but that was to prove a point that I and the thread starter were being advised of gains that probably wont happen. I am overly open minded about running an elec pump if it produces the gains that I was told it will.
I dont engage in the name calling, and childesh actions I have seen in this thread although I admit I am at fault also for dragging it out so long.
I feel like the integrity of a person is judged by how they handle situations being good or bad, and even more by how they handle their mistakes or poor judgements.
I do have an elec pump that I would be more than willing to ship to someone to do some 1/4 mile testing, I really want to know the results. PM me if you are interested.
I think the best thing is for an Moderator to close this thread as it has become something where the OP is getting personal and forgetting the reason this thread was started. When the thread starter clearly stated this is about a street car it his arguement should have ended, and I should have shut up.
The last post from the OP I read was that he fly's a 32 million dollar aircraft, so he doesn have a habit of lieing????? ummmm ok are we reaching for credibility?
Its all in black and white. I will move my posts about the carb and fuel pump to my build thread and drop it here, AH64PILOT your welcome to come over and read, comment, etc, I like and appreciate your opinion as I feel you are a good guy and have done fantastic work, but please leave the name calling and anger some where else.

 

Have a Dale Cubic carb built.

 

Sending my old RobbMc fuel pump out today to be upgraded to the new style billet valve body. I'm having issues with my Bulldog heads clearing the old pump but I think the mods will work. We'll see.

 

Update on all this drama!
I have a good friend with a SVT lightening truck, they run a stock 13.2 quarter, he has a smaller pulley on the blower, exhaust and a few bolt ons, his truck runs 12.6 pretty consistant.
1) we ran with the quadrajet, from 20-85 several times and it was very different, the first time I pulled him by about a car, second time less, third, fourth and fifth time he pulled me by a car to car and a half, got home and again the damn throttle cable, not letting it get WOT.
2) Took the entire assembly apart again, called Lokar, they overnighted a new inside cable to me, due to all the trouble i have had, I installed the cable. Ran the SVT 3 times, all three times pulled him from 20-85, about 2 car lengths
3) installed the elec fuel pump, still the quad carb, car DID feel better. more responsive, Ran the SVT 4 times 20-85 mph, gained a bit about 2-1/2 to 3 car lengths each time.
4) installed the Prosystems carb, and 1/2 inch line down to the mech fuel pump ( I am running both elec and mech pumps) HOLY, massive change, the car is blowing the tires from a 10 mph roll through 1st and 2nd. Ran the SVT, best immediate pull, 6 cars or so.
5) bypassed the mech pump, ran the SVT, same situation as above
6) pulled power wire off the elec pump, running only the mechanical pump, same as above two posts, we couldnt appreciate any performance difference by running both a elec and mech pump, or just elec or just mech pump.

This is obviously a primitive way of testing something but running a comparative vehicle multiple times will give you an idea of whats going on. The biggest imporvement I saw was the throttle cable fix and the carb change. The elec pump is still bolted under the car, but I have no use for it, if someone needs it PM me, I will sell it at a deal, it has the hoses and all the leads.
In closing I cant speak for a drag car or starving out during G force, but for a street car, the MR Gasket/Holley pump I have clears the edelbrock heads with slight modification to the head and flows plenty of fuel to support an engine that is making enough power with an AOD and 3:23 gear to out run a competitive vehicle that runs 12.6's on DOT tires, so I ASSUME thats well within the 450-500 HP range.

 

Interesting thread, but I want to clear up one misconception. Steve's third pass was NOT better due to better reaction time.

REACTION TIME HAS NO BEARING ON ET. The clocks only start when the car's Front tires break the starting line beam. Good reaction times win races, but don't change ET's.

Read any book on Drag Racing, or test it for yourself. Go to the track, try to cut your best light, and see what ET is. Go back to the start, wait a full 2-sec count after the Green comes on and then see your ET...it will be the same provided all else was the same on your run.

Thanks

Danny

 

You are correct, that was my bad, I'm sorry

 

No big deal, and I wasn't aiming just at you, I have heard lots of people confused by the timers, and reaction times. I love the sport, but as we have seen here, Street cars and race cars...two different animals...one looks silly at the race track, the other is an absolute pain on the street...

Enjoy your cars and our hobby!!!

Danny

 

real57vetteguy.....funny story.......not factual........but funny.

 

Interesting test, but kinda flawed, IMO. Since you did not wind it all the way up (which I agree you should not be doing on the street) you really don't know if the fuel suppy is adequate. Demands on a BBO at 5500 rpm and 120 MPH are different. Also, drag racing is all about the 60'. So your test eliminated the two most important aspects of a race, IMO, the start and the finish. Anyone who races knows that cars act differently at the track than they do on the street.

 

I do agree 100%, but keep in mind this was all about street cars not drag cars, and I dont think anyone needs to be running 120 mph on the street. Also Im on street tires so the 60 ft times would be useless. I absolutly agree the outcome could quite possibly be different on the drag strip but we werent talking about drag cars were debating a street car. And on the street the car didnt see any performance gains that I could appreciate with the elec fuel pump vs the mechaincal, with the exception of running the undersized carb. Why??? I do not know, but the car ran very lean with the Quadrajet, on mech pump, still ran lean with the elec pump but did run better, with the Prosystems carb there was no difference. I tried to be correct in my wording that I can't speak for a drag car seeing that it isnt a drag car. But if an elec pump was really going to make a drastic improvement or "wake" a street car up it should be seen between 20-85 mph seeing that the majority of a street cars life will be between 20-85 mph. Do you agree?

 

Glad to entertain, I stated the facts as they were no more no less.

 

Probably, but it has been my contention from the beginning that for street duty the mechanical pump ws more than adequate.

 

And you were 100% correct!!!!

 

OK street cars......so did it or did it not improve .60? You have no idea.

 

If an improvement of .60 were gained by the fuel pump some of that should have been present during a hard 20-85 mph pull, in which I couldnt feel nor see, but its not a dead issue yet, I am doing some more tuning and will be at the dyno shop hopefully in the next week or so, Like I said the pump is still mounted, so we will know more then. Like I stated earlier, there was a performance gain with the quadrajet carb using the elec pump, but when we changed to a correctly sized carb the elec pump didnt seem to produce any gains that we could see.
In all honesty, over half a second in 1/4 mile time is a pretty hefty gain, if you cant feel it in the seat of your pants you dont know your car very well, I could tell the gains right off with the elec pump on the quadrajet, and im sure it was less than .60, with that being said I couldnt feel any difference nor see any gain with the elec pump against the SVT after changing to the Prosystems carb

 

New to the forum,...... This one needs a referee. I'll be your huckleberry as I seen on a movie once.
It took me a lot of reading and back tracking and reading and back tracking on and on to really understand this thread. Its like milking a cow, back ad forth enough and youll finally get it.
Seems to me you got a guy asking about clearing a Robbmc fuel pump on an Edel head.
Well that can be done, be careful the waterjacket is close if you hit it its no biggie is you can weld, but why not go with the old school w30 pump? easy to clear.
Then you got the elec pump debate and all the arguements.
Seems to me it left helping the fellow that had the question and turned into a pissin match between the vette fellow and the pilot guy.
I don't have a dog in that fight, but after reading it all over and over i see the vette guy just keeps dragging it out it dont stop.
He does make some valid points, .60 from a fuel pump? there had to be something wrong, bad pump or maybe that cable he talked about. seem like a valid point, he seemed to hit a nerve when he quoted the pilots comments then the cussin flew.
I been messin with these cars for too long, and new here and on these forums, but I have done my share of work on drag cars street cars and dealin with people.
I liked reading all this because it shows a major loss of detail that people commenting have over looked.
it looks like to me the vette guy likes to argue and drag things out, but he made some real big points, the pilot did change his story quite a bit about that cable, and if you been drag racing for any amount of time you darned sure know 3/4 or better throttle aint gettin you home as fast as you wanna get there.
Id say that pilot knows a bit more about racing, but the vette guy kept his cool stated his facts and was pretty polite about it all, keeping your cool shows a lot.
Its funny to me they are still talking drag racing in this topic when it is a street car.
Then i read about the street racing, that aint no way to judge a car unless your racing a street car, so who do say is right? When I street raced that was the only way to judge things, against other cars. Being a referee, id say cause of his stories changing and the vette guy proving it, and it being about a street car, and from my experiences, you aint gonna see no half second gains in a 12 second street car from a fuel pump. well it is what it is.

 

My point to all this is the testing proceedure. So I guess I have to admit vette's ways were the indisputable facts obtained in the most scientific manner? Way too many variables to even be close to accurate results. Not real sure the mentality of putting a Pro Systems carb on it. If you can use a mechanical fuel pump you sure as hell can use a Q-jet carb, many guys do. Again testing is INVALID. IMO

 

Or you could trip the beam with your rear tires,if you are Butch,with the yellow 68.That was one to remember.

 

I'm doing the best I can with the resources I have. As far as the prosystems carb????? Partick builds tons of carbs for street cars running mechanical pumps.
380 racer no disrespect meant, I know from your posts you are very intelligent, but I offered before and I will offer again. If you want me to test it your way then send me the slicks and help me pay for busting a stock 10 bolt rear end if it happens. If not lets go back to street car world and testing methods for street cars.
Years ago I built several Fox body mustangs, I have several friends with the same cars, we could do a hard pull several times from 20-85 and run almost dead even, I could change a gear, or cam/ heads and we could tell a difference, if not we new we wasted money.
I know thats a joke in the drag racing world, but it does show performance gains on the street. Also the dyno testing will show results.
380 racer, I totaly respect you and everyone involved with this debate, but REALLY, we are talking about a street car on street tires, there will never be enough G force built by a 450 hp street car on street tires to starve the fuel pump, that is POINT BLANK the debate. You keep throwing up drag racing references, that IMO is invalid. I did the most accurate testing possible for a street car in street trim using street scenerios on street tires. But to go a step further I am going to do dyno testing.
If the elec pump would have helped I sure as heck would have left it hooked up, it hasnt so far except for when running the undersized carb.
This to me isnt a situation of "im right or wrong" its a situation of "will an elec pump help a 450 hp or so street car gain power or not"
Every comment, every test method, every remark you have made reflects drag racing. I respect that but as you say INVALID!

 

That is also funny, I am not giving you a handout.........nobody ever gave me one. You want to test, you spend your own money.

I'm done with this shyt.

 

Vetteguy, you are missing the point. I agree that in most instances a mechanical pump is a better choice for a DD that won't see the track, but that is just my opinion. But, your test did NOT prove anything other than in your car under these set of circumstances, no noticable gains were seen. That's all. Way too many variables. It is like a cam or carb change. You might swap it and gain .2, but it does not mean the next guy will.

 

I wanted to use my RobbMc fuel pump but it wouldn't clear my Bulldog heads so I sent it back to RobbMc for the upgrade to the billet top figuring I'd have more room. Well I didn't so I wanted to show what had to be done to clear my mechanical pump. Just finished it today. I can't comment on Edelbrock heads but it was some substantial mods to clear the pump housing with the Bulldogs. If I'm going to use an electric pump it's only to push it to the mechanical. Some minor grinding on the pump was also needed to clear the block a bit.