Hi,

I currently have a 1965 400 engine with C heads that needs rebuliding. One piston has broken rings and grooves. It does have the forged 4 speed crank. I also have the oppurtuinity to pick up a 1969 455 Toro motor.

One of these motors will be replacing the numbers matching one in my '68 442 convert 4 speed car.

Which one should I rebulid and does anyone have a source for forged 350 pistons to put in the '65 400?

 

in 65, the 400 was a B block with A heads. In 67, E block, C heads. Summit, Jegs etc should have L2320 W31 pistons which are .057" overbore for an early 400.
The 455 is period correct for your car, L2323 pistons. Many owners replaced the late 400 with a 455 back then. That 400 block is G, C heads. 455s have F block.

 

I'm pretty sure the Toro crank will have to be drilled for the 4-speed pilot bushing, so you're still looking at machine work.

Is the current G block in good condition? or are you pulling it to save it? I can sure understand wanting to be rid of it, because all things considered, it was probably the worst engine Oldsmobile produced. Woulda been great for a heavy truck that needed long-stroke torque at low engine speed...

I think I'd use the 1965 engine even though it needs a rebuild, and that's simply because I think the 65-67 400-425 are overall the best engines Oldsmobile ever made. Sure, you gain 30 CID with a 455, but it won't spool up like a 65-7 engine.

Rund is giving you excellent advice on piston usage if you can find a good machinist who'll understand a .057 overbore as opposed to a more common .060 job.

 

Well... since I'm working on a 1965 I know how hard it is to find a B block engine. I agree that they're good motors, but would be more inclined to say sell it to someone needing the numbers matching and build the Toro engine. But that's my 2 cents worth, either one would be a good engine to build.

I do hope you plan to keep the original numbers matching engine. At some future date you might want to put the car back to original and that motor would increase the value of your car.

John

 

Rocket - Pulling to save it's #'s matching. I'm leaning towards the 400 myself. Forged crank & already drilled for the four speed.

Run - Thanks didn't know they still made the 350 W31 pistons.

2blu - The original '68 motor is going on the engine stand. My understanding is that the '65 400's had the VIN stamped on the A heads.


Things that are going to be needed for the '65 400:

-Early bolt pattern manual flywheel.

- Cam with 45 Deg. cam bank angle.

It's going to be a street mostly motor, using stock exhaust manifolds.

Trying to keep the stock look with a little extra on tap.

 

The number on the head is a VXXXXXX code, which isnt VIN based. Its on the Protecto plate. So to prove a 65 400 is original you need the POP book. And its not really proving the block is original just the head.

Id sell the 400 to a 65 guy doing a resto. They sell for 800-1000 bucks not running. Last running one I saw on ebay sold for 4000 bucks. Real rare motor only used in 65 442s.

 

Yeah, what he said

So the "B" block casting was only in 1965 and that engine was only used in the 442, unlike the other years of 400 motors. So even without the heads we know that engine came out of a 442.

 

I believe Supercars Unltd. just got in a batch of early flywheels. I too would use the B block in a correct car. The extra 55 cubes won't hurt on a street engine, and will help civilize a big camshaft. And, they can rev well if you fix a couple things that hurt them: heavy pistons, fat rings, and rod/stroke ratio. These fixes are beyond what you do for a regular rebuild, but even with stock stuff the 455 works OK and is set up for lower rpm. Do you want to spin your 400 past 6000 to take advantage of it? At 6600 it will do what a 455 does at 5800-6000.
Most builds don't optimize the engine parameters for power. Within the realm of a near-stock build, there isn't any big advantage of a 400 over a 455. Personally, I'd rather see a 68-9 engine in a 68-9 442 rather than the early 400, just for year-range consistency. It is easier and cheaper to get a bread-and-butter stock or performance cam for the late lifter angle. Yes, you will get the crank bored out for a pilot bearing. A 69 crank has enough meat back there to bore (accurately on center) .55" deep and use the Dorman 690-014 pilot bushing. have the shop counterbore a little deeper for tranny input nose clearance.

 

If it were me, I'd use the early 400.
To me, the 455's just don't run as well, even though I love them both.

OMG, there is not 1 factory head ever produced for this engine, that can feed a 455 at even 5200rpm. Damnned sorry fact.
The short stroke BBO engines just keep pulling.
Try one out. You will believe.

I do however, understand TK's financial argument. It can help pay the project.
Jim

 

I have run 400, 425, and 455 engines. They all pulled well for me

 

Ho Boy! I don't think we've helped you decide which one to use. But maybe that's the point, you've got two really good motors to choose from. You'll likely be happy with which ever one you finally pick.

John

 

It's all good info.

Thanks to everyone for their input!

Maybe I should just find a '65 442 that needs a motor, always loved that year.

To make my decision even harder the guy with the '69 Toro motor just dropped his asking price by $125.

After looking at the '65 400 in the garage, it appears that the intake and C heads came from a '69.

 

Get that Toro engine. The oil pan is worth $, and it has the big valve C heads, worth more $.

 

Have room for another project? I think I know where you could find a 1965 442 out in Oregon. Read through the bottom posts on this thread:

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...hine-shop.html


If one Oldsmobile is good, two must be better

 

Tough dilemma! I went through this same situation last year...someone in the local olds club here has a complete carb to pan '65 400 4-spd motor that was running when put in dry storage 20 years ago! He wanted in the 'hood of $1800....only thing is, I couldn't justify "wasting" it in my '65 Vista....so I settled on a '66 Toro motor complete for $250! Save the 442 engine for a 442 I figure...

 

2blu - I already have a '69 cougar XR7, and a '67 mustang coupe in addition to the 442. The cougar needs a short block rebuild (did the heads last year). The Mustang is stripped with parts in boxes all over the garage. Think another project would end in a divorce!

ent- I see your point, but I would really like to see how good the '65 will run. Maybe I'll get the '65 running again and then decide what to do with it.

The 442 must be upset about the upcoming motor swap.... the right rear tire was flat when I went to go for a ride today.

 

I have decided to use my stock (internally) 67 400E with 65 A-heads as a donor motor for my 65 425 build for the 64 "post". I need the crank and rods along with a sweet list of all the external goodies on this motor. Just wanting to be different this time. I am looking to build the 425 around the high reving capabilites as the early 400's But as hard as the early 400's are I put mine up for sale a few times. Not a call.

 

I have not decided to port the A-heads for my build or go with the new re-designed Edelbrocks, so with that said, I may have the A-heads here for you....

 

Update: Since the '69 Toro motor went to a different home. I will be rebuilding the '65 400 B block with C heads. I'll start another thread for the build.

Thanks for everyones input, I look forward to your advice and comments on the build thread.

 

I will be watching what your early 400 goals are and the combo you choose.