From my understanding if you go this far into them you can get the procomps heads at about the same price a lot of guys here have good things to say about them

I have no hands on on these just letting you know what was suggested to me

 

You are probably right about the cost to have larger valves installed, however if I went with the large valve C heads then I would not have as much into them just the couple hundred to buy and a valve job if they are otherwise in good shape. Springs, retainers, cam etc would be on top of either way that I go so...

 

What do you think of these clearances?

For piston clearances from KB (4.156 bore, 30 over std):
-Piston to Wall 0.0020-0.0025
-Top Ring Gap 0.027 (4.156 x 0.0065)
-Second Ring Gap 0.0166 (4.156 x 0.0040)

For bearings (Clevite 10 under std):
-Rod Bearings 0.0025-0.0027
-Main Bearings 0.0031-0.0033
-Rod side clearance 0.015-0.020

 

I almost have the engine back so the next step is to figure out the heads and the cam. Mark (cutlassefi) has been helping lots with getting my cam kit together but wanted to get some feedback on rockers.

Engine thus far:
-KB 277 30 over pistons, stock rods & crank
-Edelbrock Performer 2151 intake / Rebuilt Quadrajet carb
-Headers / dual exhaust
-HEI Distributor
-TH400 trans, rebuilding with Transgo 400-1&2
-Rear end is a 3.70 posi
-2,200 stall

I plan to use the G Heads 2.00/1.625 valves and will do some mild home porting to them. I was going to pickup a set of C heads that I came across but they were in pretty rough shape so I am staying away from them at this point.

Carb is going to be sent away for a rebuilt to match the engine. Looking at some Hooker Comp Headers from Summit too.

So the big question is will I get a benefit from roller rockers or should I just stick with the stock ones? Remmeber I am building a street car, I want it to be fun and sound good but it won;t see much time on the drag strip.

 

True roller rockers are the way to go, but I would recommend installing studs and guide plates as well. This keeps everything stable.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Here's a shot of what the setup looks like! This is on a 100% stock-appearing unit. Stock valve covers, single thick gaskets. Also a "streeter".

 

I'd snag the C heads if they are in decent shape and use them until if/ever the seats recede.

 

If is this is mostly a street car I think you are over thinking it. back in the 1980s I took 455s and just did a stock rebuild kits .just turn the crank new cam bearings , bore it over new high compression pistions ,performance valve job, new springs and pocket porting on small valve heads. Installed the old crane blazer cam it was real cose to the w 31 spec. Add headder 3.42 or 373 gear recuve the disbutor, re work the q jet with a new front jets and metering rods spring, a cheap 11 converter. in a 1970s cutless we would run low 13 @ 97-101 mph. I did 3 motors that way. Me and brothers beat on them cars for a few years and never had a engine failer. not so on the transmissions and rear end lol,
BTW they were veary streetable and fun to drive every day. talk about burn rubber at will on the street .
If you want to run low 12s high 11s you will need to upgrade new heads and install new studs and bolts, balance blue print the block.Some here can run this and call it streetable. to me streetable is to be able to drive it every day and for long distance while being comfortable. 411 + gear 3500 stall and a exhaust that make your ear ring ant streetable.

 

Your version of streetable sounds identical to what I am looking for. The C heads I found were a little rough with rust etc so I think they would need a bit more work in comparison to the G heads I have. The big hurdle with the G heads will be the 3 busted header bolts on the one. Tried an easy out felt like it was gonna break, stopped before that happened but I am going to have to drill and helicoil then. Also tried to heat, PB Blaster, welding a nut on etc, no luck...

 

Well I finally got the assembled short-block back from the machine shop.

Just to re-confirm my build:
-Olds 455
-KB 277 30 over pistons (comp around 9.8:1)
-stock rods & crank ground 10 under/align honed/balanced
-Cam 232/240 on a 110, with .568 lift on both (thanks Cutlassefi)
-Comp Roller Rockers/Guide Plates/Studs
-Large Valve 2.07/1.72 G heads light porting job, crossover filled, center divider levelled
-Edelbrock Performer 2151 intake / Quadrajet jetted to match engine
-Hooker Comp non-tuned Headers 3902 / 3 inch Pypes dual exhaust
-HEI Distributor
-TH400 trans, red alto perf rebuild with Transgo 400-1&2
-Rear end is a 3.70 posi
-2,500 stall

The crank clearances came in at (Clevite 10 under):
-Main Bearings #1-4 0.0028 -Rear Main 0.0040
-Rod Bearings 0.0016
-Rod side clearance 0.020

For piston clearances from KB277 (4.156 bore, 30 over std):
-Piston to Wall 0.0021
-Top Ring Gap 0.022
-Second Ring Gap 0.022
-Deck to Piston 0.010

Heads look really good, they did a valve job, resurfaced, and replaced a few valves and guides as one valve was bent when I got the heads. Previous owner installed 2.07/1.71 Milodon valves. Specs for them came in at:
-Seat Angle 44.5 degrees
-Spring Seat Pressure 110 lbs
-Spring Seat Pressure Open 270 lbs


Some questions:
-Is there a correct orientation to these pistons I always thought the piston dish needed to match the combustion chamber? If that is the case these appear to be upside down, does this matter?
-Prior to installing pistons I confirmed the top ring gap needed to be 0.027 but the engine builder said the moly rings will seat and end up in that area which is why he set to 0.022 initially, does this make sense?
-the rod bearing clearance I asked them to aim for 0.0020-0.0025, they said that was a bit loose hence they went with less with 0.0016?


All other clearances match my requests but before I start assembling this I want to make sure it is all good. Thanks for your feedback in advance.

 

Sorry to rain on your parade but those pistons are in upside down, period.
And the type of ring has nothing to do with the end gap. If your guy would have read the directions that come with those pistons he would have seen the extra clearance is because of heat, not ring material. I've used that exact piston and put .028 on the top ring.
If he read the directions he may also have seen that he put them in upside down.

.0016 with stock rods is tight, good luck there as well.

 

#1 pistons are too tight. Its going to run hot and most likely gauld the skirts.
#2 pistons are in upside down.
#3 ring gaps are tight for my liking. Rings gaps are to be ASSEMBLED at a given spec. Not assembled hoping they will eventually wear in to that spec. Not a good practice by any means. If the hone is so rough as to let the moly rings wear away that much material in a short amount of time its not done right.
#4 rod journal clearance is minimal. As long as the assembly is super clean it'll be OK. I don't like seeing major disparities between main and rod clearance. I like to see them just about the same. .0022-.0025 on both for a street build.
Good luck.

 

Great...

So can the piston pins be removed and reinstalled without hurting the pistons?

That pisses me off about the rings because when they got to that point we had the conversation about them and the rod bearing clearance, they confirmed and then did their own thing after.

 

I just talked to the engine shop, explained what cutlassefi and Smitty just said above and the engine is going back to be corrected. Mark & Smitty I greatly appreciate all the help you ahve given me during this build, could not have done it without you guys and all the other members on here!

The Plan:
Flipping the pistons should not be a big deal they say they can remove/reinstall the pins carefully and it should not affect anything so that sounds good. As for the top ring gap they will open up .028 and I have asked him to open up the rod bearing clearance to .0025. Then we should be good to go!

Smitty I see the note about the piston clearance, I did see some recommendations about going larger than the specs in the KB instructions but they did follow my direction on that one so it is what it is. I do appreciate your recommendation though.

This is a pain in the *** but at least its corrected before I run it...

 

[QUOTE=bainer1290;697886]I just talked to the engine shop, explained what cutlassefi and Smitty just said above and the engine is going back to be corrected. Mark & Smitty I greatly appreciate all the help you have given me during this build, could not have done it without you guys and all the other members on here!

The Plan:
Flipping the pistons should not be a big deal they say they can remove/reinstall the pins carefully and it should not affect anything so that sounds good. As for the top ring gap they will open up .028 and I have asked him to open up the rod bearing clearance to .0025. Then we should be good to go!

[QUOTE]

Ask them how they are going to do that. If he says polish the crank then they need to grind it to .020 and get the proper clearance from there. Polishing that much will only make the journal concave.
Mental note, don't ever use these guys again.

Happy to help, no problem.

 

He mentioned something about opening up the rods to increase the clearance to the crank, does that make sense? I assume they would need new rod bearings to fit properly

 

This is exactly the reason why I have Mark (cutlassefi) build mine.
Peace of mind knowing that everything is right.

 

Seriously? Tell him he's out of his gourd with that idea. Technically it will work, but then you will loose bearing crush, which decreases heat transfer, and makes spinning a bearing more likely. To add .001 clearance inside the bearing he us going to have to take .002 out of the rod. Sound odd but it works that way.
Since the crank is a fresh regrind tell him to put it back in the grinder and cut the journals to proper size. Just like he should have done to begin with. You size the crank to the bearing size when it is all known. He just ground the crank and hoped for the best.

 

Yes I was thinking that myself when I asked him how he was going to do it in the first place. I will have him regrind. Thanks again

 

Wow all I have to say is can you please tell us who is building this as you would be doing members a service. I have dealt with some hole in the wall shops although small they usually do as I ask because I assemble everything and measure everything. I have trust issues when it comes to farming work out.

 

I hear you loud and clear, I also have some trust issues hence why I gave specific instructions, clearances, etc... In all honesty the shop has been really good to deal with, they have always asked before doing anything that varied from my specs its just there were a few pieces that were missed. They did stop the assembly when they saw the rod clearances and piston ring gaps but the mechanic they had assembling it seems to be the weak link, I believe he may just not be farmiliar with the olds engine. Regardless they have promised to make it right as per my specs so that goes a long way in my books.

 

Hi "bainer", maybe luck will be on your side some, there's a probably a real good chance if pistons went in backwards that they put the rods on the pistons "backwards" at the same time.

If they aren't "Olds savvy" this may have occurred. It may prove to be a "blessing"?? It would simply require R&R'ing the pistons/rods and "flipping" them in the right direction. It may end with the "wrong" number on the rods for the location but this will not matter.

You can check this easily yourself by pulling one rod cap and see where the brg tangs are sitting. They should be towards the cam, away from the pan rails. This is opposite a Chevrolet build!

Fixing the rang gaps is "minor" while the pistons are out.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I would also add this, I would leave the rods at .0016" and go with it. It should pose no other problems. F/M has the dimensions listed at .0005" minimum and .003" maximum! Trying to fix that rod clearance COULD be a very major issue! Would need more accurate numbers to make a real good
call here.

 

Good call Gary I will pull a rod cap off when I get home in an hour or so will post a pic, fingers crossed!!!

You bring up an interesting point on the rod clearance, when they initially ground the cam they were aiming for middle of the "factory specs"which would be exactly where they ended up. Believe it or not the shop I took the olds too used to build lots of Olds and now does about a handful each year. Where I am located they used this engine lots for irrigation and oil pumping, so when they build one for this purpose it would be different which is maybe what threw them off... No excuse but it might help explain why.

If this is the case with having the rods in the middle of the factory specs then why do so many people aim for the high end of factiry specs at .0025 for a street build? I can see going larger for a strip car but why is .0015 considered tight for an olds when it is the norm for lots of other GM engines?

 

Check this out, did Carcraft install their pistons upside down too? Is there some benefit to this that maybe I am missing?

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles.../photo_09.html

 

Let's do the math. Take the main saddles for instance.
3.1885 is in the middle (range is 3.188-3.189)
Crank journal size is 2.9993-3.0003 is std.
Typical bearing shell is .0936, x2 is .1872.
Take a journal that's on the low side at 2.9993.
3.1885-.1872=3.0013-2.9993=.002 clearance.
If you opened up the housing bore to 3.1905 you'd have .004 clearance, plus less bearing crush as mentioned.
Rods work the same way, range is 2.6245-2.625. If you opened them up .002 you'd have .002 more clearance, both vertically and horizontally.
And since a Clevite P series bearing isn't concentric to begin with, your parting line clearance would be very excessive.

 

So Mark are you saying opening the housing bore would work or not?

 

Try it once for yourself. Due to the way the bearing crushes into the bore it is not an even 1:1 ratio of open the housing to open the bore. Better yet just get a rod. Measure your shell thicknesses. Do the math. Put the shells in the housing and torque it down. Measure the bearing bore. It will not match the math.

 

Here's the pics pulled the caps off 5 and 6. I think the rods are on correctly so the pistons will need to be separated from the rods or am I incorrect?

Also in the other pics of the bearings it appears some of the coating has worn off now is this normal? Not sure if that coating comes off once the engine first rotates or how it works.

 

pics...

 

Were the journals dry like that when you pulled the caps or did you clean off the assembly lube? If they were dry like that then you need to have a serious talk with the owner of that shop. All journals and wear surfaces should be covered with assembly lube, be it a thick heavy oil like substance or an assembly paste. Since your in there see if they put goop on the cam lobes, unless youre using a roller cam.

 

I have. But if you're using a dial bore gauge, depending on it's tension it'll dig into the surface of the bearing, even just a few tenths of a thousandth. That will skew your findings.
Every time I've done the math, then measured it with the correct dial bore gauge it came out almost nearly the same. Again other than a few tenths.

Bainer, as Smitty said, you don't want to ever open the housing bores larger than the spec. The spec is there for a reason, bearing crush.

 

There was assembly lube on the bearings I cleaned them off to get a better look. The lube was a thicker than normal oil, I will be giving them my bottle of Clevite Bearing lube to use for round 2. Cam was not installed I am looking after that part myself I was just getting them to install the crank and pistons.

I will make sure they re-grind the crank also and leave the rods as is.

So as for the bearings that bit of wear is normal? There does not appear to be any major gouges I just noticed it when I popped the caps to see if the rods were on correctly. I guess the wear pattern makes sense since the piston would be causing drag on the top and bottom of the rod bearing, but once the engine actually runs all of that coating probably wears off?

 

Well the engine is back at the shop, I pulled the pistons last night as I wanted to check some things didn't find any other surprises.

They are going to pull the crank and send it back to the other shop they use to grind them and have them get the clearance to .0025

They will remove/rotate/install the pistons on the rods correctly!

Then they will reinstall the crank and pistons and open up the top ring gap to the KB specs.

I feel better already will keep you guys posted once i get it back in the next week or so...

Thanks again for all the help!

 

nYou're very welcome. But here's what bothers me, they had the heads too right?
They couldn't take 2 seconds to go look at the heads to figure out which way the pistons go? Really?!
Like copper said, you need to tell everyone around you who these knuckleheads are.

 

You are correct they did have the heads all they had to do was look at the cobustion chamber shape compared to the piston dish...

Did you see that post I made earlier from the Car Craft magazie olds 455 build, in the pics they have the KB pistons upside down too?

 

Hey Bainer, they had them upside down in the magazine and I have seen it over and over where they put the rods and pistons in like a chevy, wrong! the tangs face the cam! get the pistons and rods straight and on that .0016 clearance I am with Smitty and Mark open them up to 2 to 2.5 there is too much flex in the crank especially if you rev it, and open up that top ring to .028 like Mark said it makes better power and open your second ring up a little larger than your top ring. Oil the cylinders and lube the bearings once the clearances are set and you should have a great street engine. The guys at that shop are obviously not OLDS guys!!! We used to run the rings at 22 for the top and 20 for the second ring now Speed Pro Moly rings say to run 24 to28 or higher for the top and 26 to 30 for the second ring.

 

Also its JMO but your crank has not been polished you can do this yourself with crocus cloth and solvent and I have made the mistake of letting a machine shop set my piston to wall clearance that tight and it ran hot as hell and never made any power until I rebuilt it and opened up the clearances but by then I had to have new pistons because they were galled all to hell. Listen to Mark and Smitty!!!!

 

Appreciate that info Dave, thank you

PS I know Mark and Smitty know their stuff that's why I am listening to them for this whole build.

 

Especially on the rods and the bearing crush!!! make those guys turn the crank down to get the clearances and I would polish that crank with the super fine crocus cloth also known as jewelers cloth with solvent it makes a smoother surface but it wont get you any clearance and dont let those guys at the machine shop tell you they can polish off the crankshaft to get that little bit of clearance... AINT GONNA HAPPEN!! I have had guys tell me they could get that .0004 of clearance by polishing yep and it would look like an egg!!! You have alot of nice parts and the heads look good and you just have to get those pistons and rods right and open up the rings a little and most important to get the crank and rods clearances right then you will have a solid motor!!!

 

Whats your guys thoughts on the pipe plug located at the distributor gear, the original one in the motor had the oil hole in it, the frost plug kit I got just had the 2 pipe plugs neither with a hole. Should I drill it or not? There seems to be lots of people that say yes so interested to hear from you guys.

 

Drill it with a .040 hole.