hotrodpc

And yet again, here we go. I am sure this comes up alot. I did see one post about this before but I could not understand some of what the member was saying as far as the language he used. But, I have a 1967 425. I know its not supposed to be, but I do believe I have a small lifter 39 degree, D block Cast #389244. I had always thought that after I took off the intake and looked at the geometry of the push rods in relation to the lifters and entering the head to go to the rocker arms. I would think a 45 degree would look almost straight being the the cylinders are in a 45 degree V. My pushrods looked to be leaning back which would mean the lifter bores are a tighter angle, like maybe a 39 degree. I've read about the drill spot. I do NOT have it. Everything I have read on Olds 442 says it should be a 45 degree block. I still think not. Then on Olds442 picking the best block, Under, What Should I Look For in a BB For My Performance Olds? It says, "Most of the 425's have the 45 degree lifter angle with .842" diameter lifters. The Toro blocks have a 39° lifter angle and .921" diameter lifters. The 1967 425's have the 39 ° lifter angle and .842" diameter lifters." So what part of Olds442 is most likely to be correct? I have decided to punt on this 425 project because of the fact I am not doing a restoration project where #'s matter, and the 455 parts are cheaper and more plentiful. However, I would like to use this block since it is very high in nickel. Other than the damage done from sitting in the weather, the piston I did get free, fell right out. There is no ridge whatsoever to speak of. I am likley going to have to bore it due to the weather damage, but when I do, being high in nickel it should last me about forever. My plan is to use this block and heads with a 455 rotation assembly which makes it a true 455. Does anyone KNOW for sure if there is 1967 425 blocks that are both small lifter and common 39 degree angle lifter bank, and without the drill spot? Also, this 425 forged crank looks great, may clean up with a polish at worst, need ground 10/10 and it is forged. Whats it worth? I'd like $150 for it since that is what I am paying for a donor 1972 455 short block. Mondellos is adversting they are buying these cranks, but of course they can't answer email, and the one time I ever did get them to respond to email about a cam in the past, it was give us a call at 555, 555, 5555 and nothing about my question. So obviously they do not work off of a convenience of email and my schedule.

hotrodpc

Also, I want to add, I have not read anything about this marking. On the passenger side of this block there is a big capital D embossed on the passenger side of the block near the oil filter adapter. Does this D mean anything other than its a D block, or any help in identification?

wmachine

First of all, forget about the "higher nickel" aspect. It is an old wives tale, and *not*. I'm in the process of getting actual analysis on various blocks to prove this beyond the shadow of a doubt.
What the 425 *does* have better is a forged crank.
Only time to say that much now; have to get into the angles and lifters later.
Olds Wiki may have to be updated with correct info, but here it is:
http://www.oldsmobilewiki.com/index....Considerations

88 coupe

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...ank-angle.html

Norm

J-(Chicago)

THANK GOD.
Let me know your findings and if you need any donations.

hotrodpc

Thanks for the info guys. I had already read all that. I just have not seen where anyone has had a 39 Degree without the drill spot. I do not have a drill spot, and personally I believe I can tell just by looking its 39 degree. Maybe I just got the big lifters and think they are the small ones. They seem small to me. That is my next step is to stop by my maching shop, he has a mic and will measure the lifter for me. I see all this info, like Mondello's Tech guide but been warned its known to be inaccurate, and so if Olds442. So how does one know what to believe? I just thought maybe someone else has seen what I described. Guess not.

hotrodpc

Just did some checking at realoldspower. I was reading a post, and a guy there says, is talking about a 425 with 39 degree .842 lifters, that he KNOWS they exist because he has 2 of them, and says if he were closer to that junk yard, he would buying that other one. Nice to see someone mention that. I know I am not on crack, but noone has said a word about a 39 degree. .842 lifter motor, and I am about 100% positive that is what I have. It does NOT have the drill spot either, and it NOT a Toro block. You read Olds 442 all day long and they do not mention it, either does Mondello's. All you read is 39 degree and expensive lifters, or 45 degree expensive hard to find cam with cheap lifters. NOONE has said BOTH good cam angle and cheap lifters exist in a 425. I am just getting into Olds Power and I had thought someone could tell me, yes they exist and you will know it by...... So, now that I know from another site, that someone has mentioned they have a 39 degree with .842 lifters, I know I haven't lost my mind and will take it to a machine shop to have the vitals measured. This just might be the best of both worlds 1967 425. I am figuring it has to be a very late 67 engine, when they were changing over to the 455 in 68 which is 39 degree and .842 lifters. As I can tell, the 425 and 455 are the same blocks in most cases with exception of the lifter angle and large Toro lifters. I will update this site as soon as I have CONFIRMED 39 degree cam bank angle and .842 lifters. What a find this would be to know there is such a thing. A 67 425 with C heads and the good lifters and good cam bank angle. My crank is perfect, but the rust in the cylinders, I have a feeling its gonna need a bore. Bummer.

wmachine

As a matter of fact I do need donations. In fact, I'll post a new thread under "general".

ijasond

Step 1: Measure the lifter

Step 2: Measure the angle of the lifter bores.

This should tell you exactly what you have.

hotrodpc

Uhhh, yeah, that would probably tell me exactly what it is. I was hoping someone may know another way without having to measure it. I know the lifters are the small common ones, they interchange with a 71 455 that I have.

mugzilla

I don't know how expensive lifters are but on a stroker motor the advantage of quick, high, extended lift should be considerable ...

Extending the exhaust cycle should loosen up the back end also ..

hotrodpc

I pretty much already know what I want to put in the motor, when its built, if I build it, just wanted to know if anyone would KNOW if I had the 39 or 45 degree CBA. Apparently noone KNOWS so there must not be any easy way. I KNOW it is small lifters, and I KNOW its a 67 block, and I KNOW the orignal Olds cam part or cast #, so I had thought someone would be able to tell me which cam I have. I also do not know on Olds442 my cam is listed in 1968 cams but as an exception something CAC, whatever that means. I sure wanted to try this Olds thing out, but I think I have decided to sell all the Olds stuff I collected and go back to Chevrolet, but play with Big Blocks instead of Small Blocks. Seems to me you get more out of an Olds and I sure wanted to try it, but at least in the BBC, there are plenty of people that KNOW what I'll be dealing with.

wmachine

Good luck with your Chevies.
Oldsmobiles never have been for those that want an easy route.

88 coupe

How do you think anyone could know what you have, without physically checking it?

http://72.22.90.30/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=429916

If that is not easy enough, your choice of Chev is a no brainer.

Norm

aliensatemybuick

Some might think you were obnoxious based on such a post, but I KNOW.

In all seriousness, I think the guys here helped you all they could...but I can't really blame anyone for not wanting to declare definatively what lifter bank angle you had without seeing the motor in person and determining for themselves. Part of the knowldege offered in this thread was a method for answering your question that required a little effort on your part. There is probably no way to answer your question with 100% certainty without measuring.

But if it'll make you feel better, let me state unequivocally without even seeing it that yours is a 39 degree motor.

mugzilla

When I take pics at a show I don't take pics of c** powered cars, much less c** cars themselves ...

What did you want for those parts ..?

Did you measure the lifter bores yet ...

Run to Rund

66-7 Toros have the .921 lifters, 39 deg. angle. 66 88s-98s had .842 lifters, 45 deg. 67 88-98s had .842, 39 deg. The castings were the same, 389244D, so the 45 deg. lifter holes will have almost 1/2" of metal toward the center of the cast bosses at the top. The way I make sure what I have is to make up two rods of plastic or wood, whatever is handy, tape wrapped around it if needed, and put them into adjacent lifter bores on either side. Use a sheet of paper to see if the included angle is 90 deg. or noticeably less (78 deg).

wmachine

Looking for clarification, Joe. The unfinished castings *are* the same and the difference was in the machining?
That explains why some have the "drill spot" It was an attempt to differentiate between the 2 finished castings.

aliensatemybuick

My final thought on this point is that although it is generally understood that 1967 D blocks, be they from a Toronado or not, should have 39 degree LBA. However, 40+ years is a LOOOONG time, and even if an engine is known to have come from a '67 car and is a D block with C heads, its not impossible that the block was changed out at some point for a '66 425 (which if not from a Toro would be a 45 degee LBA motor). So again, there is no substitute for personal inspection.

hotrodpc

Wow, the thread has had some responses. I wonder why I did not get email about them??? Uhhh, yeah I guess how I could see how someone may have thought I was being obnoxious in the "I know". Nope, wasn't trying to be, just trying to point the known facts, and the positives to possibly find out what I "did not know". But tonight, I finally have an answer. I had figured some Olds guru would have known this info or had a way to identify a 45 or 39 CBA without measuring or buying a $30 tool for a 1 time use. Here is a pic he sent me via email, with the differances. Also notice in the pics, both are common lifter, and neither have the drill spot, but 1 is a 45 CBA and 1 is a 39 CBA, both are 425 blocks. The one on the left is the 45 CBA block. With lots of meat at the top of the lifer bore shown in RED, and very little at the bottom of the lifter bore shown in BLACK. I hope this helps many other people in the future.
Pic #2 is how to tell the differance. Pic #1 is my block. If this is correct, I think its safe to say, mine is common lifter bore and commn 39 degree CBA and DOES NOT have the drill spot.

aliensatemybuick

Who knew wood was so expensive in Oklahoma! This is old news, I told you 5 posts back that you had a 39 degree motor.

hotrodpc

Yes you did Aliens, but I did not read that until last night. Also why I made the statement, Wow, thread had responses...... But, I still posted the pic for others to find in the thread so they can determine for theirselves. That is the info I was looking for. I knew there had to be a way to tell without measuring. Just curious, what did you see, that you were able to tell for sure when you did?

aliensatemybuick

Actually, I didn't see anything, as you only got around to posting a pic of your motor today. I based my answer on the fact that you said it was a '67 motor. And truth be told, despite my stated certainty, since I had only your assurance that it was a '67 engine, it was really a guess...I figure I had at last a 50% chance of being right, yes? But you seemed to want a definate answer, so I figured why not give you one.

hotrodpc

Probably a good thing I didn't read the thread then or I would not have gotten the DEFINATE info and that ID pic. That is all I was looking for, was someone to tell me a way to identify the block CBA without having to buy $30 tool to measure it. I did get the info, but I didn't get it here. So its here now and hopefully someone else in the future can avoid all the frustration.

ent72olds

I'd say "Good Work" by all involved in this thread!

hotrodpc

The $30 I am quoting is for the lifter bore tool that Mondellos steals people , oops, I mean sells people to measure the CBA. If I had a lathe to make my own, I certainly would. Actually you could probably use anything that would fit in the lifter bore, just so long as you know you are holding it tight to the lifter bore at both the bottom and the top of the bore, and it should be the same results.

hotrodpc

I think I am figuring aliens is about a Wuss !!! How many times do you make a post taking stabs at people then delete them??? Be a man, if you're going to post it why not leave it? You've done it twice that I know of now.

aliensatemybuick

Truth is I wasn't sure if it was you (now I am):

http://tulsa.craigslist.org/pts/1289225793.html

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/67-Ol...Q5fAccessories

I had stumbled on the Craigslist ad earlier today while doing a nationwide craigslist search for 1967 Oldsmobile stuff, and thought it interesting that someone would go out of their way to point out the LBA and bore size in the title of the ad.

Then when searching Ebay just a few minutes ago for "425" emblems for a 1967 Delmont for a friend, I found your Ebay auction (and the username pretty much confirmed things).

I just like to be certain about things before I post them. Good luck with the sale. (By the way, I was tempted to delete this post, haw haw.)

hotrodpc

Actually the sale is going very well. I have had some TRUE KNOWLEDGABLE Oldsmobile people contact me about it and given me some good info about it. Not some arrogant idiot telling me it IS a 39 degree block for NO just reason. That is exactly how I got the pic to verify and prove it was a 39 degree CBA small lifter block. It was an eBay member. Imagine that. This post sat here for weeks, no one could tell me anything that I didn't already know, but to measure it. An eBay member came thru for me and told me how to tell the differance and a pic to back it up. And I also had a CL user hit me up and ask me if I'd be interested in a good set of 425 rods that have already been resized and ARP rod bolts installed ready for pistons for $50. Sure I took those. Maybe soon someone will contact me for some other parts and I'll have everything I need to build the 425. And I have had others contact me that have given some other great Olds info. Pretty sad, you can run ads and get more help than you can from a site that is supposed to be ...... Nevermind, no need to ramble, maybe there is to many people here like you. At any rate, for other users in the future, I posted the pic and anyone should be able to tell a 39 degree block from a 45 degree block with ease and NOT have to deal with such arrogance. Thanks for the publicity though. Not that I need it. BTW, if you want a good 425 complete engine and trans, there is one on eBay for $1200. Mondello's also has a crank for $749 there too. You better hurry though, it might not last.

aliensatemybuick

You pretty much said yourself that you thought it was a 39 degree block in one of your first posts on this site a couple months back, and posted a pic of the rusted and seized up hulk to boot (maybe if you had posted the photo below to this thread, it would have been a lot shorter):

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...html#post84167

hotrodpc

Thought and KNOWING is 2 differant things. Had anyone said they could tell me for sure with a pic, you can bet I sure would have uploaded it. At any rate, an eBay member showed me how to KNOW for sure and sent a pic to back it up and I posted it for others to find. I sure don't mind the education, and I will cetianly be happy to share what I have learned through the ordeal with someone else. Actually its an extremly simple way to tell without even measuring it. Yeah, you are right about one thing, it sure was a rusted up, seized hunk of scrap metal. Amazing how far this block has come with a little work and it like brand new now. Not even sure I posted it here on this site how I revived this block into what it is, but even the machine shop pretty much told me it was junk because of all the rust. Obviously, I am not the type that gives up easily. Someday someone may be interested in how I revived this rusty scrap iron.

aliensatemybuick

It seems to me you came here with a question,which people here tried hard to help you answer. However you didn't like the answer, and answered their kindness by baiting them and beating them over the head with what they couldn't do (i.e. tell you what block you had without even a picture to go by).

I figure the least I could do was bait you in return. On that note:

1. You should revise your EBay auction to remove the statment about the high nickel content, as a member of this site already told you above that is rubbish.

2. You may want to mention to whoever buys that motor that it sat uncovered in a field for 15 years and was rusted and seized, just in the interest of "full disclosure".

hotrodpc

Nope, wasn't trying to beat anyone up at all. Just wanted to know the trick or way to tell without having to measure the block with a wasted $30 plus shipping tool. I just knew there had to be a way to distinguish the differance by looking with the naked eye, as in possibly a code # on the block somewhere, maybe a julian date code, and extra or lack of a bolt boss etc. I knew there just had to be away to tell. Sure enough there was, and I got the answer from an ebay member. I have never ever mislead anyone on eBay. I would not have the feedback I do if I did. I'm not very concerned about selling the block at this point if you have not figured that out. I am likely going to use it. Still just up in the air if I am building it 425 or 455. I have 425 rods now, and with my ads running, sooner or later someone may contact me with a good deal on some pistons, flywheel and balancer then I can go 425. Otherwise I have a 455 that I can take the rotating assembly out of. As far as:
#1 "It is said to be, this will be one of the highest nickel blocks Olds made if that makes a differance to you." I don't think its a misleading statement, because its true, It is said to be, and I have also added if it makes a differance to you. Some people may believe it, some may not. I do not know what to beleive. Until I came here I would thought it made a differance. How is that misleading??? #2, Does it make a differance if the block sat outside for 15 days, 15 weeks, 15 months or years or decades if whatever adverse affects have been dealt with and fixed? Just asking because maybe there is something else I don't know a rusted block. I have nothing to hide and not trying to, so if it does matter for some reason, by all means it needs to be mentioned and I can edit an ad. BTW, anyone has any junk, scrap yard blocks, heads, seized motors they need out of their way, I'd be happy to take them and get them back into use.

ent72olds

I think you two need to sit down with "our President", and have a beer!

gmrocket

hey hotrodpc, those pics of the 39 vs 45 difference are from me&i'm glad they found there way to you...simple to see isnt it? i did this long time ago because of all the bs floating around about blocks&such. dont trust the year of car when dealing with a 389244D block..you have to remove intake to see for yourself

hotrodpc

Yes, thanks gm. I am sure glad it did too. I just knew there had to be a very simple way to tell the differance. And you are certainly right about not trusting the year. I had hoped this kind of info was already here or someone would have known. But its here now. I may even add the pic to the older posts about the issue. I would just hate for someone to do a motor build get it all together to find out they have the wrong cam. Then, likely since it was installed, they have lost their money and can not return it. But yes, I did get a definative answer with proof so all is wonderful about the block now.

hotrodpc

hahaha, Good Suggestion ent72, but NOT !!! I don't have any issues that need resolved. All I did was point out why someone would make stab remarks about someone then delete them several times is all. Not sure why either. I guess it intended to say I am asking to much for my parts. But that's OK too. I think I make it quite obvious I am perfectly happy if they do not sell. I am still torn between 425 or 455, there are pro's and cons to both. I am not restoring a car to #'s matching, this motor build is for an 81 Chevy Pick Up. I am happy to use these parts, but in the event someone feels the value is there and they need it for a #'s matching restoration, then they are available up until I pull the trigger on my build and start using them. Also the ads running are bringing in responses from other knowledgable Olds people. I even had one guy offer to sell me a car body for the block, but its not in my budget right now or I may have. I have a set of 425 rods on the way that I did not think I could refuse, so the ad will continue run and people can keep making their stab remarks about me. Its all good. More publicity the better. Not hard to see past arrogance, ignorance and immaturity.

hotrodpc

I am a bit heartbroken but I will be OK. I was leaning toward putting a 455 rotating assembly in my 425 block that is 39 degree and small lifter. It sold today and has left my garage. I guess now I will be building this 71 455 block instead or if our member here still has his 425 45 degree block when I get ready to pull the trigger, I may contact him too.

DannyHotRod

I have the drill spot 👍

android 211

Is the pushrod hole in the head different between 45 degree and 39 degree blocks? In other words is there a 39 degree head and a 45 degree head?