GTOJohn

I realize that this is a very rare car, but I am going to look at a 442 convertible tomorrow and the current owner says that it was sold to him as a W-30. It currently has a non-original engine but it is a pretty nice car. He doesn't have the build sheet and there are some W-30 items on the car such as red fender liners and the air ducts. I plan to look at the car and if my confidence level is high that the car may be a W-30, I'll buy, it bring it home and tear it apart to look for the build sheet.

I have seen some information online, but I am curious as to how you guys would approach the car to build confidence that it may be a real W-30?

Thanks in advance,
John

rptw32

the obvious is vin must be 344xxxxxx which is a 442 model
and the Lansing code letter which I think is M ? .

and one little detail would be the front fender braces that connect the lower front fender to the bottom of the core support will be solid braces and not have
the rubber insulator strip that the non Ram Air cars have in 69 vs. the non ram air cars ie. regular 442's wouldn't have.

course w/o the original engine - the rest of the car can be proven as a W-30 but the true value will be greatly diminished.

oldsmobiledave

Look for the obvious....Lansing built & OW code T400 if it is an automatic would be a good starting point.

Good luck

2blu442

Hi John, congrats on the find! If it has an original automatic transmission the vin will be stamped in it on the driver side, and the passengerside should have a tag with OW painted on it and stamped in it. Only the W30 got the OW transmission tag. Don't damage the interior looking for a build sheet. All W30's were built in Lansing (shows up in a letter in the vin) and very very few left the factory with build sheets still in the car. Sadly, its pretty hard to verify a real W30 car so all you can do is look for the clues.


John

oldspackrat

GTOJohn,
Do you have a '68 Verdoro green convertible?

GAOldsman

The VIN should be 344XXMXXXXXX but the cowl tag may say 344XXLANXXXXXX or 342XXMXXXXXX. Without documentation there are a very few ways to tell if it is in fact a real W30. A protect-o-plate would be real nice...... but like John said if it was an automatic M40 the VIN derivative code on the driver's side should match the actual VIN of the car and have OW stamped on the tag on the passenger's side.

Then you can do the same for the rearend and deduce if it goes together in the mix. Also the rearend code will be on the driver's side facing towards the front of the car. That code should be either TM, SJ, TD, S9 or TY

GAOldsman

Oh yeah, welcome aboard

GTOJohn

Guys,




Thanks for all of the help and the welcomes. You guys are very knowledgeable and I appreciate the information. Here is a summary of what I think that I need to look for based on your comments and I nested in a few questions as well...

1. The car must be a Lansing built 442. VIN shoud start out as 344xxMxx. So, were only the W-30s built in Lansing or were other 442s made there as well?
2. The Lower front fender braces to the core support should be solid and should not have a rubber insulator strip. I would love to see a picture of this if anyone has one.
3. The car is a T-400, but I'm not sure if it is the original trans. I hope so... If so, I should look for the VIN stamped on the DS and the OW painted tag on the PS.
4. Look for the Protecto-Plate.
5. Check the Rear end code, on the DS, facing front, code TM, SJ, TD, S9 or TY. Were these W-30 codes only?
6. There is probably not a build sheet in the car to discover?

I appreciate any additional help or clarification. I am used to working with Pontiacs and the PHS documentation service is a very nice luxury for us as we can purchase copies of the original invoices for our cars. It makes life easier for us to document our cars.

OldsPackrat---> I do have a Verdoro Green '68 Catalina Conv as well as a '68 Firebird Conv and just recently added a '68 Bonneville Wagon. The Cat was painted black forest green metallic (2012 Jeep color) this year.

Diego---> Neither the owner nor myself are named Don and we are not in PA.

Thanks,
John

Jamesbo

Drums all the way around and no a/c

GTOJohn

Excellent. Thanks Jamesbo...

John

2blu442

1. Lansing built 442's without the W30 option too, but any other assembly plant would not be correct for a W30

5. Regular 442's could have these axle codes too, but if original the rear end would be one of these if W30 optioned

6. Its known among Olds owners that Lansing threw most of the build sheets and broadcast cards in the trash rather than leaving them in the cars.

Sadly, there is nothing like the PHS document services in the world of Oldsmobiles.

Diego

Sorry, I had a brain fart.

To another point - someone said drums all around, but I thought only PDB were not allowed? So manual discs could be available, correct?

joe_padavano

There is no way to PROVE the car is a W-30 without the build sheet and you are unlikely to find a build sheet in a Lansing car. Yes, the OW trans with matching VIN derivative is a good indicator, ASSUMING the OW tag and trans looks like it's been there since the car was born. Blank OW tags are available on ebay. Of course, if it's a 4spd car, you're S.O.L. And yes, manual disks were a mid-year option on the 1969 W-30.

GTOJohn

Excellent info, thanks guys... So the car can either have manual disks or all drums. Does this mean that there were no cars with any power brakes? In other words, were there cars made with power drum brakes or only manual drum brakes? I guess it is a moot point because I'll figure out the configuration and then report back to you guys.

That really stinks about the build sheets not being in the cars. It must drive you guys nuts to try to document these cars. I think that Joe may have hit the nail on the head with his implication. I may not be able to prove that the car IS a W-30, but I may be able to prove that it ISN'T a W-30. I just have to look at the evidence.

So, if it is a W-30 car, what is it worth in #3 condition?

Thanks,
John

allyolds68

69 442's convertibles in driver condition with no rust are going for about $15,000. (look at e-bay). Take that number and add the value of the W30 specific parts (about $5000) and that's about where you should be IF there's no paperwork. The last real 69 W30 hardtop I knew of that sold went for about $24,000. It had an original window sticker but it was a four speed. The paint was showing it's age but I don't remember any rust. That was four or five years ago. The prices of documented rare Oldsmobiles have not come down since then. Convertibles are worth a lot more

rptw32

regarding pics of those fender braces

pull up a Fusicks or Inline tube catalog and locate

both sell repo's of these so you can clearly see the diff.

Rgds

Jamesbo

Joe's forgotten more about Oldsmobiles than I will ever know. If he says manual disc were a mid-year option. I go with his advice. Yes, no power brakes.

hurst68olds

RARE car with 23? built. What color combo is it? BLACK?

Here are a couple pics of the lower fender braces on a '68 OAI car.

joe_padavano

Again, pardon my skepticism, but there are currently more "W-30s" on the road than Olds ever built. The solid (no rubber isolator) front fender braces were used on ALL 1968 Cutlii, and they bolt onto a 69. Back in the day, these cars went to wrecking yards just like any other old car, and red inner fenders and complete noses were transplanted onto lesser cars. As an example, I personally removed the rear axle from a 1970 W-31 in a wrecking yard in the 1970s. I'm kicking myself now that I didn't grab the hood as well...

Everything that makes the car a W-30 can be bolted on. With the lack of positive documentation, your best bet is if the parts look like they were born on that particular car. This is why I'm skeptical of fully-optioned body-off restos - few of these cars came with all the power options. It's not impossible - my unrestored and completely trashed 68 W-30 is fully loaded with PW, PSeat, and tilt wheel, for example (and manual drums), and I know for a fact that these options were born on the car, but it's very hard to prove.

GTOJohn

Thanks for the brace pictures! That car is gold in color with a black interior and black stripes. I think that the top is black as well.

I agree, Joe. I have seen many cloned cars over the years and have been on scores of wild goose chases, but have also bought a handful of ultra-rare cars. It doesn't stop me from continuing to look at cars.

Thanks for everyone's help,
John

GTOJohn

I looked at the car tonight and it was built in Lansing, had the red fender liners, right air cleaner, cold air intakes, no A/C and the correct fender brackets. It was a very nice car, but had two inconsistencies that proved to me that it wasn't a W-30, based on everyone's feedback.

1. The car had drum brakes, but they were power assist. If I understand the consensus no power assist brakes, either drum nor disk were available on the '69 W-30?
2. The T-400 appeared to be the original transmission and it was a code OG. The stamped numbers on the tag were OG-69-9254

If everyone agrees that this is probably not a W-30, I'll walk away with clear conscious.


Thanks for everyone's help,
John

1969w3155

I would say that it is not. The reason for no power brakes was the lack of vaccum due to the cam profile.

joe_padavano

Yeah, I'm the skeptic, but in the interest of complete disclosure, there are two things to consider. First, did you verify the VIN derivative on the OG trans matches the car VIN? If yes, then game over. If not then the issue is still open. Second, it IS possible that power brakes were added. There was actually a dealer option kit for this at the time (though not for W-cars). If the original motor had been replaced with a milder version, PB could have been installed.

Octania

yeah, what Joe said

If the OG trans is VIN stamped to that car, then it is not a factory issue W30.

If the OG trans is VIN stamped to some OTHER car, then we are back to "can't disprove it"...

GTOJohn

Thanks guys....

I was unable to locate the VIN stamp on the transmission, but that was just laying on my back and trying to find it with a flashlight. If I take it further, I'll get it up on a lift.
Good point about the possibility that Power brakes could have been added later.

I suspect that this car is a 442 convertible with some W-30 parts on it. I will post some pictures later.

John

2blu442

Here's where the vin would be stamped in the 1969 vintage TH400 transmission. From the tag numbers you posted I believe that it is a 1969 442 transmission and if the vin matches with the dash that would be strong evidence to show the seller that it's a 442 convertible with W30 parts added. Still may be a nice car to have, as long as the sellers price is reasonable for a W30 clone car.


P1010155.jpg

P1010154.jpg

hurst68olds

So, what would the transmission code be if it is a W32 with the wrong fender decals? Did the W32s get red inner fenders?

69ho aurora

W32s had black fender wells (as did the W31s). In '69, only the W30 got red. In '68 it was only the W30 and the H/O (W45 and W46). The W32 got the regular OG code TH400.

GTOJohn

Excellent, Thanks 2Blu442. I think that the car is priced right based on what it is, but would have been a great deal if it were a W-30.

John