Hi everyone: I have a unique opportunity to possibly buy a really nice project but before I dive deep, can anyone please tell me how many 69' 442 W-30 Holiday Coupes were manufactured with Belly Ram Air?
If it matters, this was a factory automatic, 391 car to the best of my knowledge
I'd like to know before considering this project.

Thanks...

 

If by "Belly Ram Air" you mean the under-bumper scoops, all of them.

That would be 1097 W-30 Holiday Coupes. I'm sure there are a lot more than that number now, so be sure it's real.

 

Joe, does your reply imply all 69' W30's had the "under the bumper" ram air?
Also, I am certain as this was my friends high school car purchased in the mid 70's.
Appreciate the help as this seems really rare so far...

 

Well, I didn't imply it, I flat out said it. The under bumper air induction was a central part of the W-30 package.

 

So ... anything else you wanted to know?

 

Alot of really good info right here... Thanks
I do have a question after looking this over, what is the difference in a Holiday Coupe and a Sport Coupe?

Just trying to think of the value this car may have because if I make the purchase, it may be for sale and it's not together. It's a rust free, all original sheet metal car, perfect original interior, non pitted frame when painted, all OEM parts bought to put the car back together but the engine and trans are not original. They are date matched but not numbers matching as those got away early in life.

Thanks again...

 

Holiday coupe is a hardtop. Sport coupe is a post car I believe.

 

So it's missing the parts that make it a W-30. D heads will be $3000 -$5000 a pair when you can find them. 7029254 carb will be even more difficult to find. OW TH400 the same. Right now you are looking at a 1969 442 with red inner fenders. Value accordingly.

 

This is very helpful as I want to know as much as possible before either paying what he's asking or making him an offer. He says he has the correct engine which is complete and original. Distributor, carb, intake to pan complete and it includes the trans.
What I will ask now is the heads the "D" heads and you have provided the part number for the car which we can verify.
How are the heads identified as a "D" head?

Thanks

 

Oldsmobile heads have an identification number or letter near the number one and number eight spark plugs. The correct heads for a 1968-69 W-30 would be "D" heads. The casting number above the center two exhaust ports is 400370. The engine obviously isn't "original" if it's been replaced.

 

With most of the parts that designate it as a W-30 missing, documentation will be that much more important. Is there any?

 

I'm hoping and will be asking as he says he has the correct engine however not VIN matched so I'm hoping he has a w-30 69' 400 and not just a 442 400 engine.
I'm also hoping since by buddy did the frame off years back, the build sheet is in hands to document this W-30

This gives me some questions before considering an offer. Thanks everyone!!

I did confirm this morning it still has all of the original front end parts, which look new, ball jts, tie rods, etc. The car has less than 70K miles
Price of the car last I heard was 17K

If I make this purchase, it would be a flip, I don't have the means or space to finish this correctly

 

I doubt very much if there will be a build sheet to this car. All W-30s were built at the Lansing plant and Lansing was very careful about removing any signs of a build sheet before the car left the plant. I don't believe anyone at this site has ever seen a built sheet from a Lansing-built car. It will be interesting to find out if the replacement engine came from a W-30 car.

Randy C.

 

Good to know about the lack of the build sheet. I will still ask for his response
Besides the engine itself, what else would be clear that this is/was a w-30 from the factory and not a clone?

 

The vin derivative stamped on the original tagged OW trans

 

Broadcast card?

 

From post #6:

 

Post #9

 

"Correct", not "original". The VIN derivatives will not match, so no way to prove the car is a real W-30.

 

Just a observation from a bystander... Based on the questions you are asking, your ability to flip this car is drastically hampered by your lack of basic information about what makes a W-30 car special. As the seller, the onus will be on you to make the case. Lack of factory documentation will make this next to impossible for you. Take Joe's advice and consider this a 442 with a non matching drive train. Frankly, there are hundreds of those out there for sale by people blinded by dollar signs. Be prepared to sit on this car for a very long time to recoup your investment. My guess is you will eventually take a bath in it to have someone else take it off your hands.

tc

 

Or knowledge.

He feels like he discovered a diamond under a rock that no one has turned over before.

I think several others have thought the very same thing.....they just didn't say it. Many times these poster's come back to this site to post them for sale for quick sale at an inflated price. When they get no offers, they post that if its not sold here, they will put it on Ebay. People go to Ebay to buy things CHEAP or hard to find things. Sellers list things with the idea they will receive a premium price because of a larger "market".
.....Just my two cents worth.

 

I know of two 69 w30 carbs and one 4 speed 442 carb

 

There are a lot more of them out there today than Olds ever built. Just sayin'

 

There isn't any info on the Broadcast Card that would identify a 69 as a W30

 

Still curious while I continue to dig if there is anything else that would identify this as a W-30 car besides having the original numbers matching engine.
I realize alot can be changed to clone a car... Sway bars, boxed control arms, red inners, etc.
My friend who purchased the car with low miles in the 70's owned it until a few years ago and I may purchase it from the next owner he sold it too.

My friend is convinced it was and is a TRUE W30 car and won't believe anything else. One thing I did learn tonight after talking with him is that this car had manual drum brakes on all 4 corners. Is this possible?? Could they have produced a 69 W-30 with drum brakes? I also learned tonight that the engine that has been bought for this car is to be a W30 69 engine and trans. Carb, dist, everything to pan including exhaust manifolds. I have not reached out yet to confirm distributor number, carb number, manifolds and obviously the "D" heads yet

Thanks

 

Manual drum brakes were the only brakes offered on the 1969 W-30 until the manual disc option became available in mid-year. Of course, manual drum brakes were the base equipment on EVERY Cutlass and 442 built in the 1969 model year, so that proves nothing. Except for the heads, every other external part on a 1969 W-30 motor has the same casting number as those on any other 400 motor built that year - intake, block, exhaust manifolds, etc. Yes, the distributor and carb are unique to the W-30, but again, these are bolt-on parts so while there presence is circumstantial evidence, it isn't hard proof. Obviously there are no numbers that "match" on those parts, so there's no way to tell if they originally came on this car. All 442s got the same boxed control arms and sway bars. The rear axle ratios used in the W-30s were also available on every other 442, and yes that can also be changed. Sorry, but there is no way to prove this car is real without paperwork. As I said, value it accordingly.

 

I understand you saying your friend is confident its a real W30. But Joe's spot on when he says consider the value of a 442 with some cool parts added. If you were planning to keep it rather than flip it you could enjoy knowing you have a special car verified by your friend. I too have a 1969 W30 missing the original drivetrain. I have spoken with the owner from the early 1980's and he told me about swapping the engine when the block froze and cracked, and later swapping the transmission when it went out. Back then the numbers matching wasn't a big deal so he didn't keep the original parts. I'm confident in what I have. But I will never be able to sell it for more than what a 442 with some W30 items installed would be worth. The cool factor is high, and I am collecting parts to make it as close to original as possible, just for the fun of it. The 1969 W30 cars with automatic transmissions only had a production number of around 250. But without something like the OW transmission with the vin stamped into it, there is no way to prove its not a 442 cloned with W30 parts. My 2 cents, if you don't want to keep it value it as a 1969 442, plus the value of W30 parts that could be removed and sold, less the cost of replacing with 442 appropriate parts. Consider your time and trouble and the risk you'd be taking that you can make a profit without sitting on the car and parts for a long time. John

 

Thanks everyone, this is the knowledge I needed prior to making an offer and I now feel I have a better idea of a true value. If I learn the engine and trans are numbers correct to a 69' W30, including the carb and distributor and now knowing production of these cars with an automatic were around 250, I would think this frame off, never any rot 69' should be worth 45,000 to 50K put back together running down the road.
If indeed its NOT a true W30 set up, maybe just a 400/turbo 400 from a 69' 442, then the value is probably more like 30K running down the road.
This car has never had a rust hole, has no bondo in it, car looks brand new underside including frame, under 70K original miles, flawless interior and all NOS parts were used and still has original tight front suspension items

Curious where you folks feel my price range is?

Special thanks to Joe for time answering all my questions...

 

The 68-69 cars don't get near the love of the 70-72 cars. An undocumented, NOM 69 will struggle to reach your price range. And keep in mind that fewer automatics were made because the four speed was more desirable. Rarity does not equal value. Pontiac Azteks are rare.

 

Price range to buy or price range to sell ?

Rarity does not equal value ? OMG, I hope my acquiring a lot those Yugo's, Chrsler K cars, Plymouth Neon's, Ford Festiva's, Cutlass Ciera's isn't a mistake.

 

With engine and trans correct to "a" W30, the car will still be a clone unless you have backup documentation.

With engine and trans that have VIN derivative matching "that" car, it will be authentic, even without documentation.

 

I understand what everyone is saying... value the car as if you have a 442 with W30 add ons. Again, I understand unless I DO NOT HAVE the original VIN matching Block and Transmission, there is NO WAY to thoroughly/properly document this is a true W30 69' car.

 

What everyone is saying is to walk away and find another car to drool over. Good luck either way.

 

No, what most people are saying is just to make an educated decision. It sounds like a solid car, but it isn't likely to bring Barrett Jackson money due to the NOM and lack of documentation. That's all.

 

a real car without documentation is still a real car - getting another person to part with large amounts of cash for an undocumented car is another issue

 

Something else to think about. Be honest with yourself here. Why do you think he would sell for 17K if you believe you can sell it more twice that amount? Why wouldn't he also be asking for that amount of money?

 

I believe his sale price estimates are AFTER he finishes the car.

 

There are some signs to look for in an attempt to verify if it may have been a W-30. Since your buddy did the frame off years back, were the backs of the front fenders repainted? If so, that eliminates one clue to the originality. Was the core support replaced? If so, that removes another clue to originality.

 

& at what point did it lose its fender decals - maybe it was a W32 car ????

 

I understood he did not have time or resources to finish the car and it was just a flipper.

Originally Posted by ProStreet1 View Post
Price of the car last I heard was 17K If I make this purchase, it would be a flip, I don't have the means or space to finish this correctly

Hagerty's valuation is less than 17 for a #4 condition 69 442 coupe with no major parts missing. quoted below.
$16,800
#4 vehicles are daily drivers, with flaws visible to the naked eye. The chrome might have pitting or scratches, the windshield might be chipped. Paintwork is imperfect, and perhaps the body has a minor dent. Split seams or a cracked dash, where applicable, might be present. No major parts are missing, but the wheels could differ from the originals, or other non- stock additions might be present. A #4 vehicle can also be a deteriorated restoration. "Fair" is the one word that describes a #4 vehicle.