bobb

Hi Guys,

What I'm trying to figure out is what was the time delay between when the 455 block was cast for 70 W30s and when the car was assembled. From what I've read (on 442.com I think) the rule of thumb is the block should have been cast 30 to 40 days prior to when the car was assembled. That's a nice rule of thumb....but what I'd like to know is what the delay actually was.

So if you own a 70 W30 and it has the original engine... can you please tell me the time difference between the julian date code on the back of the block (the three digits in the top of the block by the distributor hole) and the actual build date of the car (broadcast sheet or trim plate)?

I know this is ****.....so I don't expect you to get out of the Lazyboy and truck on out to the cold dark garage with a flashlight. But the next time you've got your car out see if you can get me this info. I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks,
bob

coltsneckbob

My w30 in in storage now, but I can tell you that in speaking with some experts (Troy Thornton) the time frame that was cited to me was within 90 days. On my car the timeframe if I recall correctly was about 4 weeks.

bobb

Hi Coltsneckbob,

Thanks for the input. What you say is exactly my problem. If the window was up to 90 days (3 months) and your motor was build about 28 days before your car was assembled, that's quite a discrepency. If most blocks were cast 4 weeks prior (like yours), then what would have caused the foundry to get behind by another two months for others people's cars. That's why I'm looking forward to hearing what you guys have to say.....I'm curious to find out the reality from the hype.

Colts Neck.....nice area. My Dad worked most of his life on Willowbrook Farms in Colts Neck, a 300+ acre thoroughbred horse farm. When the owner died the a-hole lawyers got custody of the property and sold it to builders for millions. I haven't been by there in years, but I've heard it's all townhomes and condos. Still....Colts Necks is a beautiful place....used to love going there as a kid.

thanks,
bob

compedgemarine

first off there is a difference between when the block was cast and when the motor was built. blocks could be cast several months before they were installed in the car. the engine could be assembled anywhere from 1 to 4 weeks before the build of the car. that is why there is no difinitive date time. there have been cars built by all the manufacturers that have original engines where the engines were built a couple of months prior to the car build to as little as a few days.

coltsneckbob

I think I would agree. There are many reasons an engine, an axle or what have you might sit around for a longer time then others. I don't think (and this is only my guess) that engines are cast for specific cars. It could be a certain number of engines are built on an expectation or trend in sales, but for some reason the sales of 455s fall off. That is why I think the window is generally 90 days.

Incidentally, the axle on my car is something like 75 days prior to the build date.

coltsneckbob

Yep, don't want to sound too snooty....but Colts Neck is nice. Got lots of celebs living here. Bruce Springsteen lives here....couple of NFL and NBA players. Used to have Heather Locklear, but now a bunch of TV celebs.

Colts Neck 95% single family homes. Some of those homes are 10,000 square feet, but still single family. The only place where the housing is dense is a small area adjacent to RT18. This is the Mt. Laurel housing that NJ requires each town to have. Initially, those homes were sold to low income families. A small house there went for $80K about 15 years ago, now they go for $400K.

I've been here going on 23 years. Back then AT&T Bell Labs have large building (2 million square feet) in nearby Holmdel. I worked for Bell Labs at that facility for many years. In 2000 we moved to another facility in Middletown. The building is now empty as it is owned by Alcatel Lucent. It is a shame. It was a great place to work. Many great discoveries and inventions were made in that building. Several Noble prize winners worked there and though most of us couldn't hope to reach their achievement level it was a thrill just to be there with them. And it was just a great atmopshere.

bobb

Hi Coltsneckbob,

Nope, it's not snooty....just the way it is. Bruce Springsteen stopped by the farm one day to talk to my dad. Seems Bruce's wife thought getting some chickens would be cute. My dad was kind of known around there for that sort of thing. I'll never forget when dad came home from work that day and told me the story....funny as ****. He said this big black car pulls up to the farm and a huge bodyguard gets out, approaches him and says Mr. Springsteen would like to talk to you. My dad says "who the hell is Mr. Springsteen?". He really had no clue....still doesn't. So he gave some chickens to Bruce and off he went. When he tells me this story he asks me if I ever heard of Bruce Springsteen. I fell over laughing. This was back in the 80's when Bruce was a mega-star.

Great town you have there Bob.....good fer ya! Delicious Orchards still makes the best damn apple pie on the planet....even if it costs $30 bucks!

take care,
bob

spf1410

Great story! I've been a huge Bruce fan since I heard "Born To Run" in 1975.

A buddy of mine and I were having lunch at McDonalds. We were sitting in my W-30 and the song came on. I can remember it like it was yesterday.

"Wrap your legs 'round these velvet rims and strap your hands 'cross my engines." That was it, hooked on his music for the rest of my life...

Okay... back to engine block dates. I didn't mean to hijack the thread- sorry!

bobb

Hi Guys,

90 days worth of castings laying around just seems a bit hard to understand. Not saying it didn't happen, but didn't Olds make like 600,000 Cutlasses in 1970? So if half were 455 cars then we're talking 25,000 blocks used per month....and that's just Cutlasses. A 90 day inventory would be 75,000 blocks laying around. Stored inside of course. That's a lot of cast iron laying around rusting just waiting for a home. Again, certainly possible.....but I'm curious to see what the real time lag was when others start chiming in. I'm going to go look at the Julian on my 72W30 when I get home tonight and see what the lag was in 1972....be interesting to compare to 1970.

Spf.....I wasn't Bruce's biggest fan back in the day, but didn't turn the radio off when he was singing either. A good friend of mine worked at Nabisco (Phillip Morris) and got us the company box for a Springsteen concert in the Meadowlands (where the Giants and Jets football teams play). I've been to a lot of concerts, but have to admit his was probably the best. He played for 3 hours and sounded fantastic. You gotta give credit where credit is due and Bruce impressed.

Coltsneckbob. My bad. The farm my Dad worked at (Willowbrook farms) was actually in Tinton Falls, not Colts Neck. So just down the road. I googled it yesterday and all the stories about the development of the farm were there. Looks like they ended up building 100+ single family homes on the land, not condos or townhomes, as I suggested.

Take care guys,
bob

coltsneckbob

600K Cutlass in 1970 alone..........I don't think so. Perhaph 600K in the entire run.

I don't know where but I have seen Willowbrook Farms around here somewhere.

bobb

Coltsneckbob,

Got my wires crossed again. Total production of all Oldsmobiles in 1970 was 666,561 cars, not just Cutlasses. But most of Oldsmobiles sold in 1970 came with the 455 as standard (I think)........so in terms of number of blocks laying around I'm close....maybe a little low.

later,
bob

bobb

CNB.....Willowbrook Farms development....Riverdale Road.

later,
bob

Rickman48

Don't forget assembly time for the motor, crating and shipping to the assembing factory, usually by rail - there's another couple - 3 weeks.

stevengerard

but this is in a W30 so weren't all (or at least the W30) engines made in Lansing so no rail time necessary, and then you may have had batches of W30 engines made sitting around waiting for a customer to order a W30 or that one car (or many) cars waiting for that unique part that wasn't available at the moment, (W27 rear end, electric seat back release,etc)

compedgemarine

you have to remember that the factory does not care about what is being ordered that week. it costs ALOT of money to reset the machining process when you change from one block to another. for that reason they build lots of blocks in one run (455) then change over and build a bunch of blocks (350) and so on. they may cast 20,000 blocks in one run before switching so blocks go in a ware house and are then pulled based on builds. Chevrolet casts 4 or 5 thousand bowtie race blocks and then sends them out to be machined because it is cheaper than stopping the line to switch out the the machining process. to many people like to think these things were built from start to finish as custom orders but to GM (or ford or mopar) they are all about getting it done as cheaply as possible. as to the issue of parts not being availible and them waiting for them that didnt happen. the main rule was (according to a buddy who was in engineering with GM in the late 60's) was "do not stop the line". basically that meant that if parts were not there then you put something in on the line and it gets fixed later or at the dealer. lots of cars showed up at dealers with the wrong rear ends or radiators, etc and the parts were shipped to them to fix it before delivery.

BlackGold

Also remember that car parts don't spoil like food, so they are not necessarily used up on a first-in, first-out basis. A block or even completed engine which got pushed back into the corner of some temporary storage area might not see the next assembly process until much later, and newer parts might get used the day after they were made.

For what it's worth, the date code on my '70 W-30's block (October '69 build) precedes the Fisher Body build date by 14 days.

bobb

Hi Brian,

I hear ya, but I'm not sure parts weren't used in the order in which they were made. There had to be some process control in place otherwise the difference in casting dates and car assembly dates would be all over the map....and I don't think that will be the case when we get more data.

Coltsneck is saying his delay was 4 weeks, yours is 2 weeks....both a long way off from 3 months (90 days). Not saying it didn't happen....I just think most of the data will only show a few weeks delay and nothing being used before 2 weeks. But I have been known to be really wrong in the past. )

take care,
bob

BlackGold

Well, if it makes any difference to you, I've been collecting data (very little so far) from '70 OW transmissions, trying to see a pattern between their serial numbers and the car's build dates. They're all over the map. So I think the Hydramatic plant made a bunch of OWs early in the year and sent them to Lansing, who stored them and then grabbed them randomly as the months went by. I'm not saying there wasn't more than one build run of OW transmissions; just that they weren't installed in sequence.

In terms of engine blocks, you've got to remember that there was nothing special about the W-30 block as cast. It was just another 455 block. After machining, they were sorted for certain characteristics (and perhaps received additional machining). At each of these steps, they might get stored and then used in a non-sequential fashion.

bobb

Hey Brian,

You're reading my mind. I started thinking about what the delta would be on OW transmissions too. When I was under my car looking at the trans I only looked at the VIN-derivative. I'll get back under there (as soon as it gets above freezing) and check the casting date. Now where exactly can I find the casting date on the OW?

thanks,
bob

stevengerard

maybe we should start another thread on OW numbers, not sure what my production date is but I remember the tag number is 70-OW-6767 (i think)

bobb

Hi Steven,

I'd like to know the OW info, but I'm hesitant to start another such thread. I think people on this forum already think I'm **** enough....one more post like that from me might push them over the edge. )

My tranny tag says 70 OW- 2041 and my car was built on March 12th. It was way too cold out tonight to get under my 70 to hunt for the tranny casting date. Maybe tomorrow.

Have a great night,
bob

BlackGold

The 6767 (Steven) and 2041 (Bob) on the tag are the transmission's serial number. The first transmission produced of each application code (OW, OG, etc) was serial number 1001, and the number incermented with each trans built. If Steven's really is an OW transmission with a serial number of 6767, then we have to reevaluate. Because there's no way they built 5700+ OW transmissions even in 1970 (which was a good year for automatic W-30s).

Sadly, there is no final build date code on Olds TH-400s. Off hand, I'm not aware of a casting date on the main transmission body. However, I do know that the tailshaft housing has a casting date. You'll find the year (for example: "69") cast in the center of a 12-segment "wagon wheel." There will be one or more dots stamped between the spokes of the wagon wheel. Each segment with a dot in it represents one month: one segment means January, two means February, etc. (The dots were actually stamped in the mold, not the housing, so on the housing they are raised, not recessed.)

bobb

Brian,

That's great info.....thanks!

bob

stevengerard

I have to go look (in the spring), from what I remember there was a VIN number on the trans too (somewhere) or a derivative and it matched the motor and the VIN on my car. I thought the tag said 6767 or 6969 maybe it was 1717, I swear it was two of the same numbers, which I guess would just be coincidental then, but my car was a mid November 69 build so either way it must start with a number lower than 6

coltsneckbob

Is it possible that a factory replacement TH400 had a higher code (e.g. 6767) than say an original trans.

stevengerard

possibly, but wouldn't it not have a VIN stamped on it then, I remember the VIN matching - or a derivative. Of course you are responding to someone (me) that just bought an oil sending elbow when I already had one, had no idea I had it ON THE CAR ALREADY - it all becomes a blur too early in life

BlackGold

Steven, when you get your car out of storage in the spring, if your transmission is indeed original, please let me know what the serial number is so I can add it to my data. Thanks.

442

My 70 W30 has the following OW tag info:
70 - OW - 2622

The engine block code matches the transmission number, I think the trans # was on the left side just above the pan. These numbers are a derivative of the VIN #.

coltsneckbob

Same as on mine.

bobb

Hi Guys,

I just got another data point regarding block casting vs car build date. There's a silver 70 W30 on Ebay right now. I asked him for the Julian on the motor and he has a pic of the broadcast sheet, so I can see the date the car was made. The Julian was Jan 14th and the build date was Jan 28....so it was exactly two weeks between when the block was cast and when it was put in the car on the assembly line. So currently we have...

Blackgold - 14 days between cast and assembly (Oct 69 build)
Silver Ebay W30 - 14 days between cast and assembly (Jan 70 build)
Coltsneckbob - 28 days between cast and assembly (build date?)

So it's looking like from the start of the 70 production year thru January about a 2 week delay seems accurate. If Coltsneckbob gives us his build date we can see when the delay doubled. And if any late year builds chime in we can see how the whole year panned out.

Take care,
bob

coltsneckbob

OK, but it might take me a while. I store the car at my Mom's as I have only a 2 car garage. I seem to recall 4 weeks, but I am not 100% certain since it was a while ago. I do know that it was well within the accepted time frame.

bobb

Hi CNB,

No problem. I believe your 4 week estimate, what I was asking for was when was your car assembled?

take care,
bob

bobb

Ok, got a new data point. Thanks to an annonymous person who emailed me about this post topic here's what we have:

Blackgold - 14 days between cast and assembly (Oct 69 build)

Silver Ebay W30 - 14 days between cast and assembly (Jan 70 build)

Coltsneckbob - 28 days between cast and assembly (build date?)

Annonymous - 7-10 days between cast and assembly (Julian 10/21/69, Trim Date of 4th week in October (10D)

Keep 'em coming guys!

thanks,
bob

BlackGold

Thanks for posting. But I need the car's build date and/or VIN in order to draw any conclusions from the tranny's serial number. (If you don't want to post the complete VIN, I'd settle for the first three digits of the last six digits.)