Looking at the Hollander manual for a 66 olds F 85 as to wheels available.
It list four 14x6 steel wheels.

1. 14x6, Sedan, 442.

2. 14x6, Sedan, excluding 4-4-2, std steel

3 14x6, Sedan, excluding 4-4-2, Super Stock.

4. 14x6, SW (skyroof)

Anyone know the differences in these rims, like code, differences in the center section, or difference in the outer rim design, or what the correct offset or backspace.

Who would have manufactured these rims? Motor Wheel, Kelsey Hayes, Norris Technologies, etc. Thanks,

 

More info available in the wheel section of the Assembly Manual, available free of charge at Wild About Cars.
http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-b...aldisplayed=50

More in the Parts Catalog there too:
http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-b...aldisplayed=50

Wild About Cars. http://wildaboutcars.com. An information supersource, especially Oldsmobile. More Olds content than anywhere else on the internet and continuing to grow.
You'll find Chassis Service Manuals, Product Information Manuals (AKA Assembly Manuals), Inspector's Manuals, and other documents that will contain this and much much more.
Dealer Brochures, magazine ads and articles, and the Automotive History Preservation Society library growing daily.
Free to join, free to learn.

 

I'm never quite trusting of Hollanders. As an example, Hollanders claims that only Cutlass disc brake spindles can be used on Cutlii. I think we all know that is false, as many of us have used non-Olds spindles to do disc brake conversions.

I bring this up because No. 3 above is apparently the SS-I wheel. Why is says "excluding 4-4-2" is a mystery.

 

are you looking for some stock steel non-rally 14 x 6 wheels?

 

Thanks Kurt. I looked though all the AIMs on the 65-67 F85 and it seems that is gm 383178 is the standard 14x5 rim. And that gm 387564 was the 14x6 rim used on the VC and 442 if that is what this means.

"387564-Wheel Assy (108) EXT. S.W. (935W2?, W29)" Kind of hard to read, the 108 is not very clean and could be something else; but the W29 is clear.

Would anyone have a photo of the tire side of rim or the front and rear face? Know the manufactures? Or have examples of the stamp for the code, or samps on the tire side of the rim, or stamps of the manufactures.

Thinking there might be different styles of outer rim and or center section, depending upon manufacture.

Thanks again.

 

 

My 66 442 has all 5 of its original 6" wheels. There is a single "R" stamped next to the valve stem and is correct.

 

This is a photo of the code of the rim I am talking about. I will have to take more photo's to show the full front view, back view, and tire side view.

 

The '72 Parts Catalog referenced above shows '65-'68 14x6.0" primed wheel as part # 403397 (group 5.803)

The 1966 Oldsmobile A-body Assembly Manual shows part # 387564 as the 14x6.0" "wheel assembly" (what does the "assembly" include?)

I have a '69 HOLLANDER & it shows '64-'66 14x6.0" wheel (HOLLANDER #691) as part # 3871919 & 387564 it does not refer to it as an "assembly number"

My '76 HOLLANDER shows 6 part numbers for the '64-'66 14x6.0" wheel (HOLLANDER #948), the #691 isn't listed in this edition

*

By '72/'76, I'm sure the GM/HOLLANDER books are condensed. With current editions having additional part number/information loses.
There are numerous internet references for the 3871919 wheel with a number of different stamped codes (A, R, others?) being correct for most of the '66 performance GM intermediates.

Does anyone know if the stamped letter was plant/manufacturer/car specific?

 

That rim looks correct. Unfortunately my car is in a museum currently on consignment so I have no access ti a close up.

 

The 65-76 442 AIM's all show 387564 code R. The 72 catalog shows 387564 for a number of vehicles including 64-65 442; but does show 403397 for 65-68 400 eng. I wonder if 403397 even existed as early as 68, anyone have a catalog from earlier than 72?

the 3871919 shows up in GTO and Chevelle SS AIM's from 64-67 at least.

I have seen a number of different codes like R, R3, 6, 6 A, and 6 A3 on Kelsey Hayes rims,dated 64-68, that appear to be 100 % the same except for codes and the number of little holes on the center section and of course the stampings.

I think Kelsey Hayes and Motor Wheel both supplied wheels for the 442 and maybe Norris Technologies. Yes they used different stamps that changed over the years. What also appears to be a litte different between the manufactures is the cutout area of the center section and maybe the design of the outer rim. Here are some more photo's.

What I am trying to do is verify that the wheel is primer is correct for 65-67 442? And verify that there were two different manufactures of the wheels, Kelsey Hayes and Motor Wheel and that the center section carried with the manufactures and also maybe the outer rim also carried? Thanks.

 

Jim, Dan, guys, I'm at the OCA Nats right now. I have more info at home (earlier parts books, etc.) and I will check this all out and add to this when I get back.

 

I purchased a '66 442 (11B Fremont, CA) project about a month ago - 3 mid-'80s aluminum 14x7.0" wheels (the 4th in the trunk) & one black wheel. The steel wheel was the only one that did not hold air.

Does a black spare on a "autumn bronze metallic" 442 = 5 black 14x6.0" wheels and full wheel covers as original equipment?

 

That looks like the R coded rims I have, is the backspace 4.5 or if measuring t h e offset, a 1.00 offset?

If you remove the tire, you should be able to see some other stampings.

 

Black rims usually meant full wheel covers. Spares matched what was on the car. My '65 Fremont 442 had three letters in the paint code, YY A, with the third letter being for the black wheels.

In '65 there was a hubcap that looked as if it was full but did not completely cover the rim. I saw a fairly original yellow 442 with those caps and yellow wheels. So maybe the black wheels really are only for FULL wheel covers.

 

Any updates Kurt?

 

403397 is different from the earlier cars in that it fits disc brakes. Starting in '69, it was the new R-code wheel. But in '70, the HD 14" wheel went to 14 x 7.

I'm speculating here, but I think the stamps you're finding may be because the they are the broadcast code and could be different for the different divisions even it it is the same wheel.


I think what you need to look for is the "wheel number" found inside the rim (see the pics). In this case the R-code wheel number is 800. Early SSIs are 795, '69 SSIs are 810. That number will tell you "what" the wheel is.
Also: JJ is a standard duty wheel, and JK is heavy duty. All SSI and SSII should be JK.

Yes, *if* the spare is original to the car, of course!

 

Thanks for the information Kurt. I see the one rim is from Motor Wheel and dated Oct 6h of 67, so that went on a 68 model year car.

The other R coded rim has the early style of stamping of just the letter, so it must have been for an earlier year

Do you know if there were other manufactures of rims for the 442 besides Motor Wheel. Like Norris Technologies or Kelsey Hayes? The rims I have are coded R and dated 65 and I don't think they were made by Motor Wheel. The three photos above of the primed wheel show the code R, the tire side of the rim, and the back side.

I looked at a rim 100% like mine and coded R today at a Muscle car show in MN, it was in the trunk of a 65 442 and the owner claimed it was one of the original rims. I think he was correct and the rims I have also came on a 442; but I've been wrong before.

Another question I have is in regard to the JK designation meaning heavy duty. There were lots of JK chevy rims, both 14x5 and 14x6 in the mid 60's. The JJ designation didn't start until 67 and it always showed up on disc brake rims and ralley rims. They continued to use JK for drum brake rims and also used just a J designation on 14x5 rims. I though the JK and JJ referred to the outer rim design.

The different codes like A, 6, etc were not on broadcast sheet. The A coded rims came on 64 and early 65 GTO's The 6 coded rims came on later 65 and 66 GTO's. The 6 code rims came on 66 Chevelle SS's
All are 14x6JK, 1.00 offset rims, 100% like the photo's of the R coded rim I am showing in the previous photo's. except for the coded stamped by the valve stem.

 

J JJ JK etc. are bead profiles http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible_pg4.html

I believe the 800, 795C, 810 numbers are also profiles, but profiles of the wheel hoop itself. Possibly specific to Motor Wheel Corp..

 

The only rims that I have seen those numbers like the 800, etc, are on wheels from Motor Wheel Corp. I have never seeen them on Kelsey Hayes rims and are not on the few wheels I have from Norris Technologies.

 

"The other R-code rim" you refer to that I posted the pic of is one of 2 I have that I believe are original to a '65 442.
I do not know of other OEM rim manufacturers other than MW. As far as I know, they made all of the SSI and SSII wheel though at least '70 or so. I have not looked at a whole lot of steel wheels, though.




[QUOTE=jim larson;575902]
Another question I have is in regard to the JK designation meaning heavy duty. There were lots of JK chevy rims, both 14x5 and 14x6 in the mid 60's. The JJ designation didn't start until 67 and it always showed up on disc brake rims and ralley rims. They continued to use JK for drum brake rims and also used just a J designation on 14x5 rims. I though the JK and JJ referred to the outer rim design.

Both of you have had broader exposure to rim numbers than I have. I'm limited to just Olds rims. But obviously a broader scope can certain help with the understanding.
Unfortunately, the rim manufacturers are not spelled out in the assembly manuals like the tire manufacturers are. There may be manufacturers other than MW that have made OEM Olds rims in this time period, but I'm not familiar with them. It is possible that the JK and 800 are "coincidental" markings. By that I mean that they may have to do with the outer wheel profile and still be what is used for heavy duty applications. I know I have seen wheel info that said JK was for heavy duty, but as always, is subject to verification. I'm sure I've seen JJ applications in '65 wheels, and can double check on that if it helps.


Do you know what the broadcast codes are for the HD wheels for Pontiac and Chevy? I would think they should be the same as the letter by the valve stem, as that was the reason to have have the stamp there (external id on the assembly line).

 

No I don't have that much experience with the F85 or 442 rims. I am looking at the 65 f85 AIM and it shows both Kelsey Hayes and Motor Wheel construction regarding the drum on page 10-3.2. But there is no reference to wheel construction or manufacture.

The AIM does show the 1.00 offset which was true for both the 14x5 and 14x6 rim and wheel appears to be of a designed similar to the photo of my R coded wheel.

I do know there were different manufactures for chevorlet rims, so would think this is true for the olds. Norris Technologies for example were located in CA, they supplied the wheels for the Fremont, CA plant. Since they were one of some 26,000 gm suppliers, why wouldn't they also supply the olds plant in CA? Just thinking. Or if Kelsey Hayes supplied drums, why wouldn't they supply wheels?

Seems Kelsey Hayes acquired Motor Wheel in 1974. They tire side of the wheel in the one photo, which shows May of 5 (if that large E with a little 5 means that), looks to have a Kelsey Hayes logo stamped into it. I have no idea of how wheels were stamped in 1975.

 

Here are a couple pics of the wheel I referenced above November '65 CA built 1966 442. It does NOT appear to have ever had a hub cap or wheel cover on the wheel. The "23105" stamped number caught me by surprise.

 

another - Is it possible the "3M" is the customer: 3 = Oldsmobile & M = Lansing ????

 

Where is the "3M" coming from? The rim appears to have the earlier "R" stamp, which probably means it is earlier than a 68 produced rim. This rim looks just like the R coded rims I have that were made by Kelsey Hayes. Are there no other stampings on the side of the outer rim that is covered by an installed tire? I have never seen this rim with the earlier code stampings that has a number stamped on the rim. Is this on the outside, backside, or tire side of the rim?

 

That is what would be true with a black rim on a 66 or 67 chevelle.

 

The "3M" ended being "GM" & in the tire jamb, all I could find is the "MADE IN USA 14X6K NT J 5" & whatever the symbol is.


Wonder if the "J 5" would be a date: September '65 would fit the 11/65 CA built '66 442 it was on.

 

Yes, 4.5" backspace.

 

OK now I understand, then GM stamp on the center section that good.

14x6K should be 14x6 JK or JK 14x6 J, I think. NT stands for Norris Technologies which was located in CA. The J 5 stands for Oct of 65. But maybe you are reading that wrong. If you could send me a photo of the 14x6 J NT J 5, I could identify the month. Oct of 65 would work for a Nov of 65 442.

I think the might also be a NT stamp on the center section. you might want to check.

 

I thought the photos were the same as the original three, so didn't look closely, now I see.

This is exactly the same as a couple of rims that I have except they were made by Kelsey Hayes and the R was stamped to the left of the valve stem. The only stampings on the center section were the GM stamp and a 65 stamp on different nubs of the center section. No number stamping. Tire side was stamped completely different since it was a Kelsey Hayes stamp.

 

Oct of 65 was the 66 model year not 65.

 

I'm just getting caught up with the wheel threads.
Dan, from what I understand now from that writeup, the J, JK, etc. is the hoop profile, not just the bead profile.
Regardless, I still believe the 800, 810 numbers are wheel id numbers. From all I've seen, the numbers are chronological with the higher numbers being newer wheels.

I have a number of wheels to get pics of and numbers off of, so more to come!

 

Did the chrome '65 442 rims, I think it was code N66, have the R code on them?

 

mmachine,

Thank you for this information. I have a 1966 Cutlass original service manual, (paid like $100 too in 1997) in peices somewhere (in the trunk w/lost keys I think). This website has me spending hours studying. I have been on a build haitus for 10 years and this stuff was just NOT around then. BRILLIANT.

Thanks again,

Rob

 

No. Option N98. Different wheel = different application = different code.

 

You're quite welcome. 10 years ago I had (and still have) most of this that I was collecting (and still am). Didn't know what I was going to do with it all. But now I do.

 

Thanks Kurt, good info, the two chrome rims came on my ,65 442 I bought in '75, will dig them out and see what codes there are.

 

http://442restoration.homestead.com/N98.html

Maybe different stamped codes, but not different wheel. They were chromed 14x6 wheels. People called them chrome reverse, but they are not reversed. Just chrome rims.

 

No, the chrome makes it a different wheel. "Same as except" is still different. especially when talking about an application as we are doing here. What I said was correct. It would have a different code because it is a different wheel.

 

Walk in to the Olds parts dept. and the 65 chrome wheel had a different part number and price as compared to the other wheel.

Henry