Joffroi

I have some friends in town for the weekend and of course they wanted to go for a ride in the Cutlass. It was just a short cruise, nothing too special, just had a couple quick burst of speeds every once in a while. Well, about a mile from my house (luckily) I was turning a corner and gave it a little extra gas, heard a click, and then realized my transmission wasn't shifting anymore. It was like I was stuck in neutral. My park worked, but everything else gave me the same results; giving gas just revved the engine. If I got up to higher RPMs, the car would start going about 5 mph. Reverse also did not work. My car has a 700r4 transmission with a 2800 stall convertor.

Any idea what is going on and what it will take to fix?

Thinking positive, at least I was able to push my car to my house and not have to get it towed

henryk8398

Start with the easiest thing to do: check your fluid level and condition.

d2_willys

Fluid check, if good, then drop pan and see what lerks. This sounds like no oil pickup, therefore no oil pressure. Could be as easy as filter is clogged, but if clogged what clogged it?

Here is another quick check, torque converter bolts all came loose? If you have a inspection cover, remove and check converter bolts.

If neither show a problem, then time for a pressure check. Front pump/pressure regulator shot.

Allan R

Describe more?? You're not seeing leaking from the tranny and you checked the fluid level? Where did the click sound come from - console area or engine bay?

I'm not a tranny guy, but did some searching for 700R4 problems and this may be the tv cable or governor? Could be the adjuster on the tv cable let go so there weren't any shift points anymore?

bccan

Likely a broken input shaft/housing, pump stator. Infamous weak spot on 200 & 700.

My speculation is based on it coming after a few power runs & you hearing a noise.

I hope it is simpler than that, but have a bad feelin.

d2_willys

Good point, had a neighbor kid with an early 700r4 in a blazer and was power running and the next thing, his old man was trying to figure out why the car would not move except at very high rpms.

Joffroi

I can't believe I didn't even check the fluid. This will be the first thing I do when I get back to it.

There is no leaking and it sounded like the click came from the engine bay. But it was really hard to tell since it wasn't that loud and it came by surprise.

Sounds like they had the same problem I have now.

I've never had to do anything with my transmission before so my experience is definitely a minimum for this. Is trying to confirm your diagnosis something that I can do in my garage or am I better off getting towed to a shop

d2_willys

I am not that familiar with the pressure taps of the 700r4, so it might be wise to have checked out at a reputable shop. Did you install the transmission, if so it might be wise to remove it and then take it to a shop.

Joffroi

I did not install the transmission and I don't know if I'm capable of taking it off myself .

I did crank the car on to check the fluid though. Looks like I may need a new battery now because on the last 3 times I've tried to crank my car, I've had to jump it. But thats a different story. Just doesn't look like luck is on my side now.

The fluid did look good though. It was just under the halfway mark of where it should be while the engine was in idle. It also looked clear / pink like new fluid does look like.

Looks like I may need to save up and then see if AAA will tow me car to a shop eventually. At least this happened when we are getting 100 + degree weather. Not ideal for driving a car with no AC anyway.

Rickman48

Top it off with fluid, to the full mark!
If you're dipstick tube isn't fully seated, you may be down much more than that!
Then let us know.

Joffroi

Since I have to get my battery tested, I'll go ahead and get another quart. These may be stupid questions, but I'd rather be safe the sorry....
1) Is any automatic transmission fluid OK for this?
2) Do I need to add it while the car is running as well?

Thanks

MDchanic

Yes. Any Dextron should be fine (II, III, IV, V, VI, I have no idea how high they go now).
Just don't go putting any of that F-rd "Type F" fluid in it. Some of the "advanced students" have done that to customize shift feel, but not in transmissions that are already mostly full of Dextron.

No. It'll blow all over if you've got a good fan.
But you do have to check the level at idle and warmed up.

The thing about the dipstick on these is that the level falls off a cliff when you get to the bottom "ADD" line. If it's just a tiny bit below the line, it could need 8oz, or it could need 4 quarts.

- Eric

droldsmorland

I agree with bccan...Sounds like you have a trans failure. 700s are notorious for the failure you describe. The pressure port is on the driver’s side of the case. 1/8” pipe thread If memory’s on. I use the same port to drain the trans down before removing the pan. That’s of course if the pumps pumping.
Before you do anything have yourself or a known quality trans shop hook a pressure gauge to it and I’ll bet the problem will show itself immediately with low or no pressures. The clunk or snap you heard could be almost anything letting go; accumulator spring, band anchor and or the pin, shafts etc...Don’t mess around diagnose with pressure’s first that will dictate the proper course of troubleshooting and repair...My guess it it’s time for it to come out for inspection/rebuild? Let us know what you find.
If you have to get it rebuilt do some homework and install as many upgrades as you can afford. Such as upgraded cryo hardened shafts, planetaries, drum, hi-perf band frictions & steals, high Perf gasket & seal kit. Do all the bushing & bearings too as well as a high perf pump, etc...You don’t want to do this again for a while so do it right.
Did you upgrade this 700 or put in a stock unit?

Joffroi

The previous owner did all the work and almost everything is "new/rebuilt" with under 6000 miles on it. I don't know details about the trans yet so I'll assume its stock with the stall convertor.

I have a transmission shop I've been very happy with. Took my 68 there before and they fixed the problem for free (says fix was to easy, some cord). My only problem is if I take it there, I have to tow it and then commit to whatever they said needs to be done. Unfortunately, my "Cutlass Funds" are next to nothing now. If we assume its something inside the transmission that needs to be fixed, is there a ball park figure on what I this might run me?

d2_willys

A quick check for pressure would be to disconnect both of the transmission cooler lines at the radiator. Put an empty gallon jug under each of the cooler lines so that the fluid will fill the jugs. Have someone start the engine and observe if either of the jugs start to fill. This will give you an idea of you have any pressure at all.

My guess is that you will have no pressure.

droldsmorland

Too open ended to guess. It all depends on what if any carnage is found. You could go several routes here, that is why I suggested you do your homework. I assume you’ve done the basics mentioned here like fluid level & condition? It has to be several quarts low to not operate. Is the TV cable intact and operating smoothly? Any outward signs of trouble? You could drop your pan to inspect for debris that’s cheap. You could be talking a couple of hundred to a couple of thousand, can’t see into the crystal ball.
If you do find significant damage it might be cheaper in the long run to get a crate trans from Jegs or Summit dyno tested with a warranty? Then again it might be cheaper to repair yours. Let the troubleshooting dictate then compare. Get it towed in and evaluated. You know you’re going to have to at least spend that. Once the problem is diagnosed and your comfortable with the decision and don’t feel the need for a second opinion tow it back home. If you need another opinion tow it there. I say this because it’s easier to diagnose the problem in the car (most of the time). By spending some $ upfront you could save some $ on the back side. Unless you’re like me and Id simply remove it & tear it apart. Save up your cash. You could save yourself money by removing and installing the trans yourself if you’re comfortable with that?
A crate 700 with the proper performance parts and a warranty is 2K all day. Check out Jegs. At that price consider upgrading to a 480LE which is a beefed 700. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves see if yours is repairable.

droldsmorland

Good idea d2 ****** I like simple!

Allan R

What are the chances you can get warranty on that? 6000 miles is nothing. Just a thought.

Joffroi

Guys, I do want to thank you for all the advice on troubleshooting myself issue. I jacked my car up this morning to poke around. Although I would usually jump at the opportunities to learn something new, I'm going to pass on digging too deep here and I'm just going to leave it to the experts. I really know next to nothing about transmissions and with record high temps in KC, I'm not that motivated to figure it out now. I'm going to get it towed to a shop I like on Tuesday. I did take a few pictures of underneath to just share.

1) I noticed one of my bolts is missing on my pan. Nothing was dripping out and there were no major leaks anywhere (just a few drops here and there). I did recheck the fluid levels yesterday and they looked good. I even added a half a quart.
GgAox.jpg

2) Picture of the pan
QjEtR.jpg

3) Drivers side few
yv8eh.jpg

4) Driver side few with serial number. (Allen; If I need a rebuild I'm definitely going to call about possible warranty)
CPgmi.jpg

5) Underneath near the front, TCI sticker.
lh5cD.jpg

6) Mystery wires that appear to be lose. Any idea what they are?
wrXcD.jpg

7) Another shot of the mystery wires to give an idea of where they are. Still drivers side.

I apologize for the lack of quality with the pictures. I didn't have much wiggle room. I had to jack my car pretty high to get past the really low headers. That, and when I jack my car higher I have less and less trust in it before I can put the stands higher.

Thanks

coppercutlass

my friend had his 700 rebuilt with a stall converter for around 1000. now if it's just a part thta failed but everything is else is good it maybe less. Pulling the trans out is not that hard and it will lower the cost of fixing it as it becomes a bench job. Talk to your trans guy explain your situtation and see if they can just pin point the issue and fix it with out a major over haul.

Rickman48

Have them quote a R+R price first - if those headers are in the way, it could get expensive!
If you bought it locally, you might ask him if he's interested in doing the labor, and getting the warrantee on the trans -as the original purchaser, it might be a whole lot cheaper!

Lady72nRob71

The mystery wires are for the TCC lockup and 4th gear pressure switch. It is possible the new tranny did not need them, as they were fore sense and control for the computer.
Hope you get this fixed easily. TCI trannies are supposed to handle some torque,,,

Rickman48

droldsmoreland - A 4l80 is more or less a 400 with O.D. - same gearing.
A 700r4 is completely different - 3:08 first gear + housings different.
Besides NOTHING being interchangeable, both are required to have adapters to bolt on a Olds. [chevy bolt pattern]

Joffroi

Well, just got the call from the shop and here is what they said. The torque converter broke because the previous builder probably didn't build it enough to support the HP from the engine. Me not knowing much about this asked if one could simply replace a torque converter. They said when one breaks, pieces of it go all through your transmission and a rebuild is in order. They quoted rebuilding it to ensure it could support my HP would cost about $2000.

Needless to say this is not really the news I wanted. I don't have that money in my car fund so I had it towed back to my house where it current sits. Maybe if it cools down I'll do some of your suggestions above to just learn more about what I'm dealing with.

droldsmorland

Yes if it wasn’t beefed I would agree with the second sentence. But it’s a TCI 700R4 which should have had some level of upgrades to the weak spots? Do you have the correct adaptor plate to mate a 700 to an Olds engine? Or is this a custom cased 700? Be sure you have the correct converter to pump depth engagement when you do the install (or mention that to the shop if you have it done).That converter doesn’t look "ballooned". How much HP/torque do you have? TCI is reputable. They may be able to track it by the serial number and determine what exactly you have. It will probably go nowhere but you never know. You'd need a bunch of HP to take apart a torque converter, unless defective from the git-go which I would think would have shown up long before 6K miles. Are you doing big Smokey burnouts with big tires? Then maybe.
Did you look into the new crate trans & new converter route I mentioned? Jegs, Summit and TCI. For the same money you may get a better warrantee and its new? The vendor may even offer you some kind of discount or a credit for the core return, never hurts to ask. Could get you on the road sooner?
Also I did a quick web surf and did find 700s cheaper than 2K.

Joffroi

My car has about 350 HP. I did look into a couple things here and there but my real lack of expertise makes me hesitant on going that route. The mechanic also said that it was pretty "custom" underneath there and ensuring that a new transmission would fit correct with length and everything would be pretty difficult. This past month has been a really bad week for things breaking on me and to its really wearing me out. I probably just need to take a break on my bad luck Cutlass to recharge

Lady72nRob71

Too bad for the hard luck... Time to take a break and plan the attack. Expect the worst just in case but hopefully it will not be that bad.
I have learnd that bad luck comes in sudden groups, one usually affecting the other somehow.
Keep us posted on the tranny issue when it is time to continue.

coppercutlass

If your rear gears arent too steep you could opt. for a 3 speed but i know the o.d. is nice. I picked up my th400 that can hold up into the 10' sec e.t. range for 750. and new converter for 180. You might be better off finding a good 3 speed core and going with that. The last time i asked to rebuild a street strip th350 would cost between 500 and 600 on the bench. add 200-400 for a good converter colser to 4 and thats 1000. That would be with you doing all the removing and replacing. i think the 200r4 is the same lenght as the th350/400 not too sure but just throwing options out there , take a pic of the underside what did he mean by custom.

d2_willys

I agree about the converter to pump engagement. I am wondering if someone forgot the crank to flexplate spacer, that I would imagine takes up the space that the engine to bell adapter has added.Check out the pic.389-350 diagram1.JPEG

You may want to look at your setup and see if there is a spacer in there. If not, I would see what I could do to get the shop that installed the transmission to make good.

BTW: If a stock dual range hydramatic can handle 350hp out of a 371, Rocket, then the 700R4 should, especially from TCI.

I broke the spider case in two with my 371 and dual range hydro years ago. No damage to trans at all.

olds34dude

I'm a big fan of overdrive but in your situation you may be better off in the longrun to go back to a 350 trans- usually BOP ones are not in high demand and can be bought cheap and is the same length as the 700. good luck, D

d2_willys

For all the expenses that the OP will go thru, why not just get a good 2004R, it has both bell patterns, and can be built to withstand big power and torque.

That is what I would do. Sell the 700r4 to a Chevy dude and recoup your money.

droldsmorland

Or a TH400 with Gear Vendor Over drive unit (6 forward speeds). I’m a huge fan of the 400s. I’ve had 200s 700s, 350s, and 400s apart. You’d be afraid to run a 200 or a 700 in a torque monster if you could see the size of the major parts in both. The 400 has the beef the others do not. But all of them can be brought up to that level with enough money and hard parts. Rumors abound of 200s & 700s living behind 1000hp!
A stock 400 is conservatively rated at 450lb/ft of input torque. With few upgrades that can be doubled. GM regularly installed them in 1 ton trucks and other HD applications.

olds34dude

my opinin was based on the fellow being shorton funds and going back to 350 is the cheapest way I believe, sure you can build a 200 for lots of power,at about the cost of building 3-4 350s, and a gearvendor unit is the cost of more than one well built anything! 350s around get built for 5bucks or less, or 400s abit more but the 350 and 700 should be the same length, as is the 200, Ijust swapped a 200 to replace a 350 in a buick powered street rod and all that was involved was drilling a couple of holes and moing the mount, alsowe have a 200 behind a 455 in my father in laws 34 olds and i have a 700 with adapter behind the 429 in my 37 cadillac= the 200 behind the Buford is in with the adapterother 37 caddy and I'm deciding on wether to use my 350 or 455 olds motor with the 700 that Ihave, I have it bolted to the 350now butthink We'll use the 455. if you can't find the adapters google 4th gear overdrive in Opopka Fla

coppercutlass

If you want a th350 I'll give you one I have like 3 lying around. May need a rebuild but simple street strip rebuild beench job is under 700 around here atleast.

Joffroi

Again, I want to thank you guys for all the help and suggestions but I think below will be my plan of action. I am probably going to stray away from finding a temp transmission that will just get my car on the road. I'd rather just do the one lump save to get my current one working reliably.

But I called another shop that specializes in muscle cars and explained my situation. He knows my car specs because I got it dynoed there and he really knows 700r4s. He quoted $1400 for a rebuild + extra depending on stall convertors. He also mentioned being about to do it in about 3-4 days. Already better then the first shop.

It will still take a while for me the get the chunk of change, but with this I really feel more comfortable leaving the work to the experts. If time permits, I may just take a few parts off to get more familiar with things though.

Thanks again. When all is said and done, I'll make sure to provide a status when a shop is actually taking it apart to see what the problem is.

Joffroi

Hey everyone. I just wanted to give an update on what happened with my car after this long time. After about 4 months, I was able to save enough to get me prepared for the worst. Looks like I needed it. Below is a quick summary to maybe help other people down the road if they have the exact problem.

It looks like you guys were definitely on the right track. If I wasn't scared of transmissions and had your knowledge, I probably could have saved a lot of money. The convertor internals got torn up from what the mechanic suspected was due to misalignment in the previous install. The pump was also messed up inside and needed to be replaced. Luckily, the rest of the components seemed to still be in good shape. Good news is its working! Bad news is, its almost winter and I'm broke haha.

Cost breakdown
12 hr labor (pressure test, etc) - $9XX
Comparable convertor - $35X
New Pump - $15X
Fluids, misc other pieces $xxx
total = $1800

At least its on the road :/

Intragration

But hey, now you don't have to worry about it in the spring.

oldcutlass

Glad you got it fixed.

Lady72nRob71

Yeow! Amazing how just a misalignment can cause such a self destruction...
On the good side, it is ready for a few spins during the winter and will be ready for spring cruising!

Allan R

Did you negotiate with the trans shop about warranty? If it's a straight 6 month time frame, you're not in good shape. If they offered at least a mileage factor it would be better, especially if you're not driving it for a while. Were they accommodating, flexible or at least understanding of this factor on a classic car?