sgtoro

OK, my 70 Toronado recently decided it will not start anymore after running just fine for most of the summer. It just cranks and cranks but not a peep from the engine, not even a sputter. It has a Delco HEI system from a mid-1970's Toronado and the factory Quadrajet. It did not have a spark, so I replaced the module, now it has spark but still will not start. There seems to be more than enough gas in the carb but it does not seem to be getting to the cylinders. Here's what has been done so far:

-Replaced the HEI module and coil, now has plenty of spark.
-Checked for gas in the carb, plenty coming in there.
-When starting (cranking) it seems to be flooding (smells like gas), but the plugs are dry.
-Checked for compression by cranking with a finger over the spark plug hole, it had the correct suction.
-Squirted gas in 1 cylinder and tried to start, still nothing.

The main issue seems to be that the gas is pooled inside the carb but is not getting to the cylinders (??), has anyone had this issue before?

MDchanic

Well, you could try pouring some gas down the carb, or a spray of ether, to see whether lack of fuel is really the problem. If not, then I'd consider rechecking the timing and te firing order.

- Eric

Rickman48

Either pull the plugs and let them dry overnight, or get some ether [starting fluid], hold the carb open, squirt each primary barrel about 3-4 seconds, re-install the air cleaner assembly, with nut, and try again!
Spark and fuel = combustion!
If it's turning over much faster, you might have jumped a tooth or two on the timing chain!

sgtoro

Thx. for the reply. The plugs are bone dry even after all that pumping/cranking, so there is nothing to dry out. There is just a lot of gas sitting in the carburetor that doesn't seem to be getting to the cylinders, so I don't think that it's a lack of fuel in the carb. problem

72 cutlass455

Is the primary throttle plate on the bottom stuck if you have compression the plugs should be wet.

Run to Rund

If the gas is pooled above the throttle plates, they are completely closed. If you hit the accelerator pedal, they should open and then the gas would be dumped into the intake manifold plenum. If the carb flooded or otherwise a lot of gas got into the manifold, it would be best to suck it out after removing the carb (or maybe running a hose down the secondaries with the throttle plates open.) If gas hasn't gotten through the throttle plates, the carb is the problem. If so, the plugs are almost certainly fouled even if they appear clean. Replacing them would probably help a lot.

gregvm

Was it running NORMALLY the last time you ran it?(prior to module change)
Is it possible that it may have jumped the timing chain? You'll be able to tell if you use a comperssion gauge.
Did you make sure you put the plug wires back on COUNTER clockwise 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2?
Did you do ANYTHING to the carb during the module replacement?
How did you test for spark? Iv'e seen pickup coils(under the distributor shaft/reluctor) that would work SOMETIMES, but quit from vacuum advance movement,etc)
Did you look down the throat of the carb with the plates wide open? Should be able to see the bottom of the intake manifold.

Hope this gives you some ideas where to look...
Greg

gregvm

Are you sure you got the RIGHT replacement ignition coil for an olds? Should have a red and WHITE primary wire, NOT red and YELLOW. They are NOT the same. May fire intermittantly. Check.
Greg

sgtoro

I must correct myself - the gas is pooled in the intake manifold under the carb, not in the carburetor itself.

The coil is the correct Olds replacement. It ran perfectly fine before putting it in the garage several weeks ago. Nothing was done to the carb since it last ran. We checked for the spark by disconnecting a plug wire and cranking while holding it near a metal ground, and it had plenty of spark. Also, we removed the drivers side valve cover and cranked, and the valves moved up and down.

Today, we removed the plugs, squirted gas in 4 cylinders on the drivers side, put the plugs back in, and still not a peep...

gregvm

Well I'm guessing it's REALLY flooded, if you have spark, and after squirting fuel into the plug holes.
Did you try: Manually holding the choke plate open, FLOOR IT(and keep it there), and crank for a while. Clear flood mode. Might be so much gas in the intake and cyls, that it's WAY flooded. If that fails...

Try: Remove ALL the plugs. Disconnect the ignition power feed wire. Open the choke plate and hold throttle wide open(and KEEP IT OPEN, DON'T PUMP), and crank the engine for about 20 seconds or so. STOP. Wait a few minutes for the starter to cool. Repeat. (this will help get built up gasoline out of the cylinders)

Install new plugs (the old ones are probably loaded up by now, may be able to clean them with brak-leen and blow out with compressed air, but that iffy). Reconnect ignition wires/power feed wire.

Crank. WITH NO PUMPING
See what it does.
If still no fire.....still points to ignition.
Hope this helps you.
Greg

sgtoro

I did the holding-foot-to-the-floor-when-cranking thing to un-flood it, but it still does not start, and the plugs are still dry (well, except the ones we put gas in) - it's almost like something is keeping the gas from getting to the cylinders or something ...

gregvm

The only thing between the cyls and the intake are the intake valves. If the valves are moving(as you stated) then if they are OUT OF TIME(relative to crankshaft), they won't allow the air/fuel charge to be drawn in properly.
I still think it's ignition related, regardless of the spark plug test. That's with no load (compression/fuel).
Why did you replace the module in the first place?(lack of spark?)
If you have compression, fuel/air, and TIMED spark.... FIRE.
Could you have a major vacuum leak (like pcv hose disconnected)?

Check to see if you have 12 volts at the power feed plug during crank AND run position. a '70 wouldve had points, thus a nichrome resistor wire to feed the distributor. If that wasn't removed, you won't have full battery voltage to the HEI. No good.
Just throwing ideas out there.
Greg

gregvm

Another thought, did you move the distributor (loosen the hold down clamp) at all?
If not, if you have access to a timing light, put it on cyl #1 and crank....
Flash should be SOMEWHERE on the timing tab....if not....jumped timing chain.
Compression check is next.
Greg

sgtoro

About the PCV valve, could the valve be bad? I removed the hose but put it back the same way, but the valve seems stuck in the valve cover and I did not want to break it. There is nothing wrong with the pcv hose though, it's OK.

gregvm

A pcv valve CAN go "bad", usually they just get sticky from engine gunk. If you remove it, shake it, it should rattle back and forth. As a test tho, just remove the pcv hose and plug it where it goes into the card/intake, to eliminate it as a suspect.

How many miles are on this engine?

Greg

gregvm

Is it possible that something is blocking your exhaust system? Like a mouse nest, or the like. If the exhaust is completely blocked, it makes it difficult to get the fuel air mix IN to the cylinder. Could be a heat valve(s) on the exhaust manifold(s) frozen closed.

Does it seem to crank at normal speed, or is it faster/slower than normal?

Greg

Rickman48

Just a thought - by replacing the module, does the timing adjustment stay the same??
Or could it be off 10-20 degrees?

sgtoro

It cranks at normal speed, nothing unusual. Also, the PCV valve seemed to be stuck in the vavle cover, did not want to break it trying to remove it, but there was some oil in the PCV end of the hose.

oldcutlass

A pcv will not prevent the car from starting. If you work the linkage on the carb are there 2 solid streams of fuel shooting in there. If yes, do you have any starting fluid?? Give it a squirt in the carb and crank it. Yes, the coil would effect timing. It won't be the wiring as you said there was a good spark while cranking. You can loosen the distributor and move it back and forth while cranking and see if thats your problem.

1971Cutlass

I'm thinking it Could be the Fuel Pump, or the points. have you set the Points?

Rickman48

HEI doesn't have points!!!!!!!!!!!
Bad Fuel pump= no fuel!
Yeah, clever!

gregvm

Really going to need more info.....
are you sure you got the ignition wires started on #1 and in the proper firing order counterclockwise?
Did you remove or move the distributor?
So it hasn't fired since replacing module?
Compression tester and timing light are going to be needed to get more info on what is going on
Greg

MDchanic

Don't bust his chops too hard - you'll need him to remind you what carburetor screw to turn in your "golden years."

- Eric

1971Cutlass

Rickman

I actually got my cutlass over here WITHOUT the fuel pump in working order.

Revise: Bad Fuel Pump=bad supply!

Duh. Of course HEI doesn't have POINTS

I'm a dummy