Water Pump Lengths
#43
Man you guys got me all jacked up about the water pumps! I had to take mine apart because of the dreaded stripped timing cover bolt thing, and the pump topics have me losing sleep! But, from other 'brands', have a little experience, so figured I'd comment:
Blade design - You do want to choose a pump with the largest blades. Most list the A/C pump along with the 'towing' or HD pump, same one. And it seems as though those have the longer/larger blades.
Open/Closed design - Because Olds mounts against a flat surface (timing cover), it pretty much doesn't matter. What does matter is the distance of the pump impellers from the timing cover surface. Closer = better. That would be controlled by the gasket. You could use some dumb-dumb and figure out what the distance is, but getting it closer than the thinnest gasket available may be a tough feat. As previously mentioned, the closed design probably requires the thicker gasket.
Blade clearance - Another area that would impact flow is the distance of the blade from the body of the pump. If the blades are bent, obviously you don't want to use the pump, but if you are able to compare some next to each other before buying, get one where the blades are as close to the body as you can find. You could probably close that gap up too, like by gentley tapping the blades, but you would have to be careful, and support the snout of the pump to not stress the seal or bearing.
Aluminum vs Cast Body - Personally, I would think the cast ones are better, since it's going to be more stable around the bearing & seal area. Cast will also expand & contract at the same rate as the rest of the engine. For a minor weight savings, don't think it's worth it.
.
Blade design - You do want to choose a pump with the largest blades. Most list the A/C pump along with the 'towing' or HD pump, same one. And it seems as though those have the longer/larger blades.
Open/Closed design - Because Olds mounts against a flat surface (timing cover), it pretty much doesn't matter. What does matter is the distance of the pump impellers from the timing cover surface. Closer = better. That would be controlled by the gasket. You could use some dumb-dumb and figure out what the distance is, but getting it closer than the thinnest gasket available may be a tough feat. As previously mentioned, the closed design probably requires the thicker gasket.
Blade clearance - Another area that would impact flow is the distance of the blade from the body of the pump. If the blades are bent, obviously you don't want to use the pump, but if you are able to compare some next to each other before buying, get one where the blades are as close to the body as you can find. You could probably close that gap up too, like by gentley tapping the blades, but you would have to be careful, and support the snout of the pump to not stress the seal or bearing.
Aluminum vs Cast Body - Personally, I would think the cast ones are better, since it's going to be more stable around the bearing & seal area. Cast will also expand & contract at the same rate as the rest of the engine. For a minor weight savings, don't think it's worth it.
.
#45
Here's a breakdown of Oldsmobile water pumps, showing year and application and height, as well as part numbers and casting numbers.
http://www.oldsmobility.com/oldsmo/v....php?f=6&t=391
http://www.oldsmobility.com/oldsmo/v....php?f=6&t=391
1) color coding for the three different lengths
2) MAIN CASTING ID INFO, the huge mark you can read from 20 ft away
3) Inlet nipple info.
Otherwise, exceedingly nice compilation.
#46
...a little cleanup also. For example, I'm not sure why the 54-56 entry needs "exc F-85". While that ISN'T incorrect, it's a little misleading. Also, the conflicting data in the tables below the main one on the 68-69 W-car and H/O pumps taken from the Mondello tech manual needs to be verified and cleaned up.
#48
I'm perhaps in a dilemma myself with these pumps. Went through every major parts store/supplier in the area with no avail. Either they're too long or a tad bit too short. I have to continue my search for a 5.072 short housing pump.
I think it would help if all the parts stores websites actually listed what the lengths of all the water pumps listed were.
I think it would help if all the parts stores websites actually listed what the lengths of all the water pumps listed were.
#49
I have been trying to get an aluminum water pump for my 350 76 cutlass supreme w/ac single pipe up here in Toronto, been to performance improvements and they say there are none available, does anyone know if they make one for this car?
#50
22526206 factory unit
1260 or 1360, whichever is the correct length
#52
Waterpumps -
Do you have the information as to the outlet size on these different pumps? I have fould parts suppliers that list a pump with 1-3/4" outlet and others with 2" outlet? Would it be safe to assume that the short shaft non/ac pump would be the one with the 1-3/4" outlet?
Thanks for info!
Thanks for info!
Very helpful - thanks!
#53
The Advance water pumps, now in a CARQUEST box, T-3085 & T-3086 both listed for a/c are 5.95" long. The T-3072 pump is 5.57 long and is listed for non a/c or OAI hood? I had to use the shorter pump T-3072 for my original '72 H/O 455 that had a/c, go figure?
#54
#56
One thing you can almost always be sure of is that an aftermarket application listing for Oldsmobiles will likely be wrong. Whether it's water pumps, motor mounts, headers, or whatever, these application guides have serious errors.
#57
Unfortunately factory books are not always correct either. Cutlass/442s in 71/72 used 3 different water pumps.
5.0" no a/c, no h.d. cooling, no W-30
5.5" W-30 no a/c
6.0" A/C or H.D. cooling
Don W
5.0" no a/c, no h.d. cooling, no W-30
5.5" W-30 no a/c
6.0" A/C or H.D. cooling
Don W
#58
I'm in the 11th hour of building the drive train on my 72 cutlass 'vert. It originally came w/350 2bbl, no air, and now it's a 4bbl, still w/o air(so far).
Anyway, the water pump ordeal has become quite a learning experience. 3rd party parts books didn't add up. I did find a stout 5" pump and the model is a Airtex AW773. Then, the 2nd problem was that it has a 2" inlet and the lower radiator nipple was 1.5". Again 3rd party parts books didn't add up. Ended up downloading the Gates molded hose catalog to find the closest hose, I could find myself. Nice catalog, sorted by part number or size w/pics. I ordered the 23095, which I think is a bit longer than needed, but still closer than any of the other options in there. I'll know more after it arrives this week.
Anyway, the water pump ordeal has become quite a learning experience. 3rd party parts books didn't add up. I did find a stout 5" pump and the model is a Airtex AW773. Then, the 2nd problem was that it has a 2" inlet and the lower radiator nipple was 1.5". Again 3rd party parts books didn't add up. Ended up downloading the Gates molded hose catalog to find the closest hose, I could find myself. Nice catalog, sorted by part number or size w/pics. I ordered the 23095, which I think is a bit longer than needed, but still closer than any of the other options in there. I'll know more after it arrives this week.
#59
I'm in the 11th hour of building the drive train on my 72 cutlass 'vert. It originally came w/350 2bbl, no air, and now it's a 4bbl, still w/o air(so far).
Anyway, the water pump ordeal has become quite a learning experience. 3rd party parts books didn't add up. I did find a stout 5" pump and the model is a Airtex AW773. Then, the 2nd problem was that it has a 2" inlet and the lower radiator nipple was 1.5". Again 3rd party parts books didn't add up. Ended up downloading the Gates molded hose catalog to find the closest hose, I could find myself. Nice catalog, sorted by part number or size w/pics. I ordered the 23095, which I think is a bit longer than needed, but still closer than any of the other options in there. I'll know more after it arrives this week.
Anyway, the water pump ordeal has become quite a learning experience. 3rd party parts books didn't add up. I did find a stout 5" pump and the model is a Airtex AW773. Then, the 2nd problem was that it has a 2" inlet and the lower radiator nipple was 1.5". Again 3rd party parts books didn't add up. Ended up downloading the Gates molded hose catalog to find the closest hose, I could find myself. Nice catalog, sorted by part number or size w/pics. I ordered the 23095, which I think is a bit longer than needed, but still closer than any of the other options in there. I'll know more after it arrives this week.
#60
Wasn't aware they made those hose adaptors, but did find them at Summit.
Most of the Cutlass replacement lower hoses I've seen are either 2"WPx1.75"RAD or 1.75"WPx1.75"RAD or 1.75"WPx1.5"RAD. I could use the 1.75 to 1.5 adaptor and the 2x1.75 hose(20595) if my plan doesn't work out. It has to be a molded hose, no flex. Thanks for the option.
Most of the Cutlass replacement lower hoses I've seen are either 2"WPx1.75"RAD or 1.75"WPx1.75"RAD or 1.75"WPx1.5"RAD. I could use the 1.75 to 1.5 adaptor and the 2x1.75 hose(20595) if my plan doesn't work out. It has to be a molded hose, no flex. Thanks for the option.
#62
Yep, probably a 68-70 5" water pump. So, today I take back the pencil branded Dayco D70650 lower hose and the parts store had a real D70650 hose waiting....low and behold this was fix. A true 2"x1.5" perfectly molded hose for the cutlass. I'll send the Gates 23095 back as soon as it arrives. Hope this helps someone else down the road, as I've learned quite a bit just browsing around this forum. Life is good again. Doug
#63
So, looking at replacement water pumps for my 66 330ci with no AC, I have acquired the following data:
This pic from my service manual...
....and this casting info from Oldsmobility
makes it appear I need to buy this water pump---
Looking for confirmation that I am most likely correct?
This pic from my service manual...
....and this casting info from Oldsmobility
makes it appear I need to buy this water pump---
Looking for confirmation that I am most likely correct?
#66
My 72 Supreme 350/m20, no ac had the shortest, 5.1 with a 2" inlet (384783 casting). This thread saved me a lot of trouble! Thanks to everyone! All the parts stores list the middle length for my car which is wrong. I have a spare 72 350 4barrel engine from an ac car and it has the longest pump (6").
I just visited our local NAPA which still has the old books behind the counter with hub heights and inlet dimensions for pumps. Unfortunately their new 5.1/2" pump is discontinued (43120). They only offer a reman (58-293). Keep those old ones if you have them. I'm hanging onto my original for a rebuild some time in the future.
I just visited our local NAPA which still has the old books behind the counter with hub heights and inlet dimensions for pumps. Unfortunately their new 5.1/2" pump is discontinued (43120). They only offer a reman (58-293). Keep those old ones if you have them. I'm hanging onto my original for a rebuild some time in the future.
#68
For rad hoses, I assume the top hose never changed between 1970 and 1971. For the lower, I assume the lower rad hose was for a 71 model as there was an Olds 260 in it when I bought the car. The hose fit my 6" Flowkooler aluminum pump that is on my 350. So I assume, hoses for a 1971 Cutlass should be ordered for my 70S due to the later water pump? I plan on ordering spare Gates hoses, I like to carry any easy replaceable parts for these old cars in the trunk.
#72
So I was at Olds Nationals in Gettysburg last Friday and was walking through parts areas with a friend, Eric who recently bought a 68 442 (I have had one also since 2011). My friend was stoked about the KA water pump pulley since I told him my car’s story as having it on the car and not knowing the significance on top of all the other W30 indicators. He had me help look through a few crates of pulleys looking for the “elusive” (in Chris Witt’s words, RIP Chris) KA pulley. I repeatedly told him we would never in a million years come to an Olds event (let alone Olds Nationals) and find that pulley unless it was for unbelievable money. We went to a table and found one (which shut me up for a little), that was so pitted and sand blasted (but had a barely discernible “KA” on it)... Tag said $500.00 and person selling wasn’t there as one of the people behind table said it had to be $5.00, not $500... I told him it is rare and marked correct and woman who got into discussion confirmed it was $500. So we walk about 10 more minutes and come up to a spot where a very nice older fellow from Oklahoma had a wire tied set of crank and water pump pulleys that had yellow paint pen marks that it was for 68-69 W30 442. I picked up the set that was in a 100% better shape then one I mentioned above that was $500.00 (that must have been in the bottom of a water barrel for 40 years). The large pulley (waterpump) was in fact marked KA and the set was in great shape. The tag said $200.00 and when we asked the seller about it (I was excited it said $200.00), he looked at the tag and said he didn’t know who wrote that on it ($200.00 price). Both Eric and I first felt guilty that he might have thought that we wrote that on it (neither of us would do that), and he said $50.00 for the set! Eric bought the set (obviously) and for the next hour he was scratching his head that it had to be a repop but I explained to him it is exactly like mine and is a set for $50.00... Even a repop that could possibly look that original could not be sold for that cheap. We returned a little later because I told Eric the waterpump may be a special height meant for that set of pulleys (I wasn’t sure at the time, just knew I never had to worry about that myself as my car came with the KA waterpump pulley and everything lines up ok. So now I am scratching my head as to how something that I knew never could happen to me or Eric at any parts swap (finding a KA waterpump pulley for such a reasonable price), and was thankful to find out that this seller jur set up Friday as Thursday was a complete rain-out (and we were only there Friday)... Meant to be for a good friend!
Here’s the interesting part that I hope someone can explain... The fellow from Oklahoma had other parts he said all were extra parts he was cleaning out as he had W30’s in the past. He had one waterpump that had 398681 on it, and Eric bought it for $40.00... It would be somewhat reasonable to deduct that the waterpump might have been on the same car as the pulley set, but the listing under the Mondello chart shows this as 69-69 400 and 455 W-30, W-32 or Hurst/Olds without AC or HD Cooling. What W-30 didn’t have HD cooling? Every thread I see says 400269 (with A/C or HD Cooling)... Is the 398681 correct for a W-30 in 68-69? Just curious as Eric feels he got the wrong water pump (and that the 400269 is correct). Any thoughts on what W-30 in 68-69 did not have HD Cooling?
Thanks!
Here’s the interesting part that I hope someone can explain... The fellow from Oklahoma had other parts he said all were extra parts he was cleaning out as he had W30’s in the past. He had one waterpump that had 398681 on it, and Eric bought it for $40.00... It would be somewhat reasonable to deduct that the waterpump might have been on the same car as the pulley set, but the listing under the Mondello chart shows this as 69-69 400 and 455 W-30, W-32 or Hurst/Olds without AC or HD Cooling. What W-30 didn’t have HD cooling? Every thread I see says 400269 (with A/C or HD Cooling)... Is the 398681 correct for a W-30 in 68-69? Just curious as Eric feels he got the wrong water pump (and that the 400269 is correct). Any thoughts on what W-30 in 68-69 did not have HD Cooling?
Thanks!
Last edited by shatrab; August 9th, 2018 at 09:42 PM.
#73
Here’s the interesting part that I hope someone can explain...
but the listing under the Mondello chart shows this as 69-69 400 and 455 W-30, W-32 or Hurst/Olds without AC or HD Cooling.
but the listing under the Mondello chart shows this as 69-69 400 and 455 W-30, W-32 or Hurst/Olds without AC or HD Cooling.
#74
I'm going to replace the water pump on the 400E, in the 64 F-85. Read everything above and checked out a few other sites about the pros and cons of rebuilt aftermarket water pumps and I'm going with a new FlowKooler Hi-volume 1775 . Yes more expensive, plus replacing a water pump is a little more involved on this build. I'm getting a bit older and going to be taking the Old's on some cruises soon, I want to minimizes chances of failure. As you can see in the pictures, there's not much wiggle room That's a 6 inch water pump with later Old's pulleys and accessories. Others have said for the extra $$$ for a FlowKooler is $$$ well spent-very pleased. My 2cents...
#76
I live in Phoenix and drive around in 110+ degree summer temperatures and I don't have any cooling issues using an auto parts store reman water pump with the crappy stamped steel impeller. I had considered getting a pump with a better impeller design but ended up trying the parts store pump and since it worked I never changed it out.
#77
Well, I don't know what "Mondello chart" you have, but any document that doesn't come directly from the factory is suspect. Even factory documents contain typos and errors, though these are usually corrected in either subsequent printings or dealer bulletins. Here are the factory pulley sheets and listings for 1968-69. P/N 401462 is the pulley used on W-30 and HD cooling.
Thank you.
Last edited by shatrab; August 12th, 2018 at 06:34 PM. Reason: spelling
#78
Many thanks to the experts the contribute to this site. Ordered a water pump for a 71 350, non air and they sent the air cond. pump.. in a few minutes I was able to fine a link to a page with casting numbers and lenghts ect and was able to give my parts guy a valid number. Thanks again
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