Chumpy2112

Im no expert mechanic, but this looks like it could be a pretty easy upgrade..(Even for me!).........."68 work in progress"

rktolds

It's an awesome upgrade. I did it with my '72 when I upgraded/replaced the tired original suspension. Great bang for the buck.

Matt

138milkmen

Hey guys. So i read just about every post about the jeep GC power steering gear box swap but ...a) i cant find the right Lee Manufacturing company. And b) that adapter everyone is talking about for the metric to standard thread mushroom looking thing...what exactly is it called?
Thanks guys

MDchanic

http://www.steertechgrp.com/



O-ring to Inverted Flare Fitting Adapter.


Good luck!

- Eric

138milkmen

This fitting?

MDchanic

Yes, if it's the right size.

- Eric

138milkmen

Is16mm o-ring to 5/8" inverted flare the right set up?

MDchanic

I hate to say I don't remember.

Ask Joe.

- Eric

joe_padavano

Yes that's the one. This adapter simply gets an o-ring on it and gets pressed into the port in the steering box. The inverted flare on the pressure hose screws in on top of it.

exiledone

Hi, I did the JGC conversion and lost track of which was high pressure and which was low. Here is a picture of the box mounted and I need to know which one is high pressure? #2 is bigger (inboard) at 18mm and the other is smaller at 16 mm. I always assume the smaller hose is high pressure. However on the Chevelle site they say the bigger one is high pressure on the old Chevelles. Please help.

joe_padavano

As usual, "they" would be wrong.

MDchanic

You could just check your Chassis Service Manual.

#2 is the pressure (feed) side.

#1 is the return side.

Welcome to ClassicOlds.

- Eric

exiledone

Thanks all! Much appreciated

138milkmen

Hey guys. So this Lee Engineering or Lee power steering...I can't find them on the Web. Maybe because I'm in CA. Idk. But every web search takes me no where. I want to get those adapters and couple for this cool sounding swap. I'll even take a phone number.

Appreciate you all!
Also, if this message is in a weird random place, blame my phone and this mobile app version of this site. I can't find anywhere to post a NEW message.

Thanks

MDchanic

http://leepowersteering.com/

joe_padavano

FYI, Lee closed down a few years ago, which is why you likely couldn't find contact info. They have just recently reopened under new management.

oddball

Here's the scoop on Lee's:

http://www.impalassforum.com/vBullet...e-emerged.html

MDchanic

Thanks for posting that.

There are a lot of very attractive female members of that forum, at least judging by their avatars...

- Eric

Alex72cutty

The upgrade worked great for me. I have a leak coming from the seal on the gearbox now. Not sure how it happened but I plan on doing a front end upgrade soon due to all the leaking. Overall, I recommend this upgrade.

Toms cutlass

Looking for suggestions.

I want to upgrade my steering box with a more responsive quicker ratio gear. What is the stock steering gear ratio in a '70 Cutlass Supreme? Is it 16/13:1 variable ratio? It is currently about 3-1/4 turns lock-to-lock ("LTL"). I understand that vari-ratio is what causes the sloppy wheel when steering straight ahead (16:1 ratio), and when parking (turning wheels) the ratio drops to a more responsive 13:1. The OE rag joint coupler is 13/16" which can be changed with a new size (3/4") if necessary. Also, the OE steering box is built with 4 ears for a 4-bolt frame attachment, but the Cutlass uses only 3 of the 4 bolt ears on the box.

Should I have my OE box rebuilt to a quicker constant ratio, and if so what ratio, 12.7:1 or 10:1? Or should I purchase a re-built (perhaps Lares) box? (I don't need the newer Delphi 670 design with t-bar internals.) Lares offers several bolt-in choices: #970 3 turns LTL OE casting 12:7:1; #971 3 turns LTL vari-ratio (don't want this due to var-ratio?); #972 10:1 2-1/2 turns LTL 4 bolts; #973 3 turns LTL 12.7:1 3 bolts; #974 2-1/2 turns LTL 10:1 3 bolts. #970 and #973 appear to be the same ratio (12.7:1) except for number of bolts that can be accommodated. Same with #972 (4 bolts) and 974 (3 bolts) both 10:1 (2-1/2 turns LTL). Lares says the #972 & 974 have IROC internals and offer slightly stiffer steering.

Thanks in advance.

Toms cutlass

Can anyone clarify the number of turns lock-to-lock for the Jeep GC steering box? Posts 22 & 36 say 2.5 turns; post 33 says 3.1 turns.

joe_padavano

Turns lock-to-lock is meaningless, since that is a function of BOTH the ratio and the internal stops. The GC box is 12.7:1 ratio.

Toms cutlass

Thank you for your reply, Joe. It may be meaningless, but how can the same GC box have different reported turns lock-to-lock? That's why I sought clarification.

If the GC box is quick ratio at 12:7, what is the ratio on a stock '70 Olds Cutlass?

If one box travels the same radius in 3 turns than another that travels the same radius in 2.5 turns, then wouldn't the latter box be a quicker ratio box?

joe_padavano

If the steering linkage hits the stops before the internal stops of the box, the number will be different.

About 17.5:1, though that is an average. The Cutlass boxes were variable ratio, with the ratio at the stops being quicker than on-center to make the car feel less twitchy (at the expense of responsiveness). On-center ratio is about 20:1, speeding up to about 16:1 at full lock.

Correct, but that ASSUMES the turning angle of the wheels is the same. As I pointed out, if something in the steering linkage or box hits a stop at a different angle the measured turns won't equate to the same turning angle. For example, on the A-body cars, the steering arms are designed to hit a stop at the side of the lower control arm. If the steering box has different internal stops that don't allow the pitman shaft to rotate as much as on the original box (the Trans Am WS6 box swap into the A-body is a classic example of this) then the steering box internal stops limit the steering angle, not the external stops, and the wheels don't turn as much.

Bottom line is that what matters is the number of turns FOR A SPECIFIC ROTATION ANGLE OF THE PITMAN SHAFT. If the box has 2.5 turns until the steering linkage hits the stops in one installation, but 3 turns due to different linkage in a different installation, that doesn't mean that the ratio in the box has changed. Compound this with the variable ratio boxes and you see why you can't just count the number of turns.

Toms cutlass

Understood. My question was the JGC box installed specifically in a '70 Cutlass: same box, same vehicle, same linkages.

Toms cutlass

Various quick-ratio steering gear info attached.

joe_padavano

The lock-to-lock number is irrelevant. The GC box is 12.7:1 It is a marked improvement. Use it.

As for the conflicting information, welcome to the web.

Toms cutlass

Thanks Joe. One last question ... since the GC gear is virtually identical to the stock gear (fittings and rag joint different), would a 12.7:1 ratio in the stock box have the same feel as the GC box? Reason I ask: I can get a fully rebuilt 12.7:1 ratio OE box for about the same cost as a used GC box and the required adapters and different (smaller size) rag joint.

MDchanic

The steering boxes are internally identical, and will feel the same, so long as their torsion bars, which actuate the power assist when torque at the steering wheel reaches a certain level, are the same.

- Eric

joe_padavano

There are two variables that affect steering feel, ratio and the torsion bar diameter. Ratio is determined by the specific gear set installed, and one 12.7 gear set is exactly the same as another. The torsion bar is part of the input shaft and governs how much steering assist you get at a given steering shaft angle. The smaller the torsion bar diameter, the more it twists and the more assist you get (meaning less steering feel). This article from Hot Rod includes a table with torsion bar diameter, ratio, and even total pitman shaft angular travel available. Note that the torsion bar diameter varies from 0.175" on the 1960s boxes to 0.210" on the performance F-body box. No, I have no idea what is in the Jeep box, but I suspect it is on the smaller side.

Toms cutlass

The GC has a .195 diameter torsion bar.

Toms cutlass

But do you know the t-bar size in the Cutlass?

joe_padavano

4speed455

The JGC box has the largest torsion bar of all the 12.7:1 boxes with the stops in the right place. Only the Monte Carlo SS had a bigger torsion bar but the turn radius is not the same.

Toms cutlass

Thanks for all of the replies.

Here's a link to another thread related to the JGC and Lares 1353 gear: https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...-w-pics-4.html

Toms cutlass

FYI - I just spoke with a Lares tech who said the Lares 1353 (i.e. the JGC gear) is not a 12.7:1 ratio! Clearly, there is plenty of reliable information which contradicts that statement. He recommended the #972 or #974 "fast ratio" 10:1 gears. I'm not going to use a 10:1 ratio to replace a 16-13:1 vari-ratio gear. Even the newer (and more expensive) Delphi 670 gear is 12.7:1 and the Borgeson and AGR gears (at Summit) are 12.7:1 and 12:1.

MDchanic

Reliable? Which information?
Considering the longevity of false information on the internet, I'd be cautious.

The only information I trust 100% is information I've obtained myself, or observed being measured.

It is impossible to get even a rough sense of steering box ratios using "casual" tools, like a straightedge and protractor, but if anyone is motivated, it could be done with a bench vise and two cam degree wheels.


Why not?

- Eric

Toms cutlass

I'm being cautious.

1.) Attached chart reflects JGC gear as 12.7:1 ratio.
2.) Hot Rod July 2014 p.112 article confirms JGC is a 12.7:1 gear > http://www.hotrod.com/articles/jeep-...ring-box-swap/
3.) Countless posters on this forum and other GM forums confirm the JGC is a 12.7:1 ratio gear.
4.) Joe P. said it is - see posts #102 & 107.

The real question: Is Lares rebuilding the JGC #1353 gear not to OE spec with the 12.7 ratio gear?

MDchanic

Yes, but what are you being cautious to guard against?


Playing devil's advocate here:

1.) You include a chart, but you do not note anything about its source.
In fact, this chart was prepared by Jim Shea, who, if I recall, is a former Saginaw engineer, and who has written extensively on Saginaw power steering gears for the Corvette crowd. Jim Shea should be a reliable source.

2.) Hot Rod magazine? Really? Members on this site regularly find glaring errors in Hot Rod articles.

3.) "Countless posters" will also tell you that the moon landings were faked, that vaccines cause autism, and that Bigfoot was seen in their back yards.


It is very likely that the JGC box is, in fact 12.7:1, but there are so many ratios and lock-to-lock numbers batted around for so many different (or the same) steering boxes at this point, and so much contradictory information, such as from different phone reps from different rebuilders, that I would be suspicious of everything.

I can tell you that a JGC box will provide quicker steering with a better feel, much closer to a "modern" car than an "old" car,and much easier for most of us to drive, with no unpleasant effort when parking, because I have done the swap, but I cannot tell you what the exact ratio or steering effort is, because I have not measured them myself.

My advice would be not to fixate on the numbers, consider how tight you like your steering to feel, and get the box that seems to be right - you will probably be happy with it no matter what.

- Eric

Toms cutlass

Whatever that means??

I started out by focusing on turns lock-to-lock. Joe P. advised turns is meaningless; instead focus on gear ratio. I focused on gear ratios but you say they're not reliable, "get the box that feels right." This method is the trial-and-error buyer's remorse method which doesn't work for me.