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On my '70 442 the original uppers were installed with a rivet. Aftermarkets are generaly bolt on style. I can't make the call on your ball joints. If me, I would replace while I'm in there. Just my 2-cents.
Hmm..interesting.
I agree..do it while I'm there, and I may still do so. My thought to the 2nd point was simply run it as is (grease it and so on) and then at the end of the season go ahead and tear back into it. I've already got a few things I need to get done anyway (new bumper, new weatherstripping, new headliner) so finishing the front suspension wont be hateful. Especially if I can harness the momentum I've had over the last 2 weeks, ha!
The original upper ball joints are riveted in place. Ball joints should not be worn @ 31k, especially uppers. I would NOT remove original ball joints unless they were worn. Check them for wear, if they are good grease them lightly meaning don't rip the boot.
The OE ball joints are likely much better quality than today's replacement. You have quality, try your best to keep it.
Yep, original uppers had 4 rivets holding the flange to the upper control arm, and the replacements use bolts and nuts instead of rivets. You can use rivets if you want, though, but next time you'll have to drill them out.
If you decide to keep the originals, don't use a ball joint fork to separate the knuckle from the control arm as that puts a lot of stress on the ball joint and can damage it. Use a press-type separator instead.
Last edited by Fun71; March 7th, 2022 at 02:34 PM.
Slept on it. If I can get away with keeping the original ball joints, and still manage to get things separated to change springs..Im going to do so. I have new boots if need be.
Just checked..ball joints are not originals. I think I'll go ahead and replace them though, as I need to replace the control arm bushings up front as well.
Gonna give er the old college try at getting the springs/ball joints/control arm bushings changed tomorrow. Hopefully between the three of us, we can get some headway on it
Had a "hey stupid" moment and forgot to unhook the brake hose. Got pissed about that so while ordering new hoses, found complete assemblies for uppers and lowers..so I ordered those too.
I'll take this time to clean the frame rail where fluid has eaten away at the paint, as well as (finally) paint the calipers. Hopefully everything is in this week and we can start reassembling. Surprisingly, the springs were a lot less of a hassle than expected..not sure if they were just that soft or what (already had 2 spacers in)
The upper arms were shimmed something fierce (hadn't noticed before) so I wonder if that had to do with the serious negative camber it has. I would expect positive camber with the engine out..if anything at all.
Reached out this morning to RPS (who I bought control arms from) and got no answer, still have yet to receive anything further than "your order is being processed" so my impatient side is kicking in and thinking about going ahead and rebuilding the current control arms.
With the engine going in this week, it means I need to get the car rolling for fuel lines soon. I also need to have time when it gets back to force myself to tear apart the heater box, and I'd like to address the spot on the lower dash before the engine gets back.
Good news is, its supposed to be annoyingly cold this weekend..so as long as I can get things out and painted before hand, putting the poly bushings in should be a piece of cake.
Reached out this morning to RPS (who I bought control arms from) and got no answer, still have yet to receive anything further than "your order is being processed" so my impatient side is kicking in and thinking about going ahead and rebuilding the current control arms.
With the engine going in this week, it means I need to get the car rolling for fuel lines soon. I also need to have time when it gets back to force myself to tear apart the heater box, and I'd like to address the spot on the lower dash before the engine gets back.
Good news is, its supposed to be annoyingly cold this weekend..so as long as I can get things out and painted before hand, putting the poly bushings in should be a piece of cake.
...must've figured my time zone difference wrong by an hour. Called again and got through, looks like everything should be in mid-late week next week. That'll give me enough time to tear the other side apart so I can paint the calipers during the down time. At least I have an idea of when to expect them though.
Brother, thanks for sharing your progress and process on your restoration. It has been really fun to "ride along" and experience it with you!
Hey, that's kind of a forum requirement, isnt it?
Like I've said multiple times (a few even on here). I grew up reading about these stories in magazines, so it's only right that if I have a similar story I document as much as I can..to maybe allow the next generation of gearheads that glimmer of hope and inspiration to keep the culture alive.
Finally got the new control arms in today. First issue, I thought they were going to have the riveted ball joints, they're bolt in (not that big of a deal, honestly)
Second issue, the lower control arms have both bushings being the round style, rather than the oval. Not sure if that makes a big difference either, but even then they're rubber and I'm torn between keeping these or installing the poly bushings in it.
Biggest point of concern is the difference in the center shaft
The old one had a nut that went on the ends, the new ones look like grade 5 bolts that thread into the shaft. Is this going to be a weak spot? If not, I'll probably just go ahead and keep them for the car.
Not familiar with RPS but maybe a little chat with them would be in order.
I hadn't dealt with them, but the only negative thing I'd heard was their customer service (more so, the lack of communication). It took a week before I finally got a hold of someone to find out these were shipping direct from the manufacturer, but I still haven't heard anything further on my brake hoses other than they should be delivered by the end of this week.
If there is no structural difference, I may just go ahead and install them..and as time permits restore the originals that came off the car. I have quite a few things that I plan on keeping with the car if I ever sell it anyway, we'll just add these to the list
I'm also not familiar with RPS but I'm aware of the 'alternate versions' of the arms with round bushings, bolt in shafts, etc. I suspect they'll be functional but, to be honest, I wouldn't even consider putting these on your car. I'm curious why you don't just use the originals? It's a pain pressing the bushings out but not more than an hour's work with the right tools. There is 100% no doubt the materials of the arms themselves, and especially the shafts, are far superior to whatever those aftermarket parts are made from. And I'd bet money the geometry is better.
Your choice but I'd definitely stick with the originals.
I went with the new ones in hopes of saving time. Had I known what I was getting into, I would've used the old ones.
Got the new poly bushings installed (the uppers were an absolute nightmare to say the least) but after that mess, I'm even more motivated to restore the originals though..if not for spares, then to send along with the car if/when it gets sold.
Got the drivers side almost completely back together this weekend. Just need to get the sway bar end links installed (pretty sure I need to loosen the passengers side to allow play in the bar) and then paint the caliper/install brake hose.
Now that I've got a bit more room in the garage, I'll pull the car over so that I've got space between the car and the wall on the passengers side. Hopefully that side doesn't fight me nearly like the driver side did.
At this rate, Im going to spend the 6 weeks I had until the engine was done just getting the front end back together..ha!
Got the drivers side almost completely ... At this rate, Im going to spend the 6 weeks I had until the engine was done just getting the front end back together..ha!
NOW you're cooking with gas, LOL!! Good Job! Bummer about the incorrect control arms, though. At least they function the same.
Passengers side is now switched over. All I have left is to put the new brake hoses on, paint the calipers, connect the sway bar links, and then grease everything and bleed brakes.
In regards to Restoration Parts Source, I called a few minutes ago to cancel my brake hoses. They have still not even shipped yet, even though I was told they were in stock when I called the last time. He wanted to give me the tracking information on the control arms, at which point I told him they had already arrived and were already on the car. I brought up the fact they were for a Chevelle and he maintained they were all the same. I explained the 2 glaring differences between the two and he claimed in all the years he'd been doing business, nobody had ever said that. Are they getting replaced? No. Am I getting refunded for those? No. I saved the originals, and once I can set the time aside I'll probably clean them up, refinish them, and put new ball joints and bushings in them.
After installing the engine, and driving it around a bit I've noticed the nose is still pretty high in the air. The back end seems right (though I've not taken a tape measure to verify)
I did notice that somehow, the PS shock wasn't installed correctly-most likely an oversight while I was thanking my lucky stars for not dying due to the coil springs. So I'll have to grab a new bushing and cup and drop the shock out and reinstall.
but yeah...with the correct front springs, how do I get the nose to drop to factory height?
Just spent a couple hours on the PS shock, trying to get everything hooked back up. As it sits, Im starting to come to the realization that ESPO sent over springs that are too tall at the front. Not only can I not get the shock hooked up top, but I remember hooking the sway bar links had the same headache. It also sits pretty high in the front end..so I'm going to walk away for a few and try to come up with a solution that doesn't require me blowing the front end apart again.
Just spent a couple hours on the PS shock, trying to get everything hooked back up. As it sits, Im starting to come to the realization that ESPO sent over springs that are too tall at the front. Not only can I not get the shock hooked up top, but I remember hooking the sway bar links had the same headache. It also sits pretty high in the front end..so I'm going to walk away for a few and try to come up with a solution that doesn't require me blowing the front end apart again.
Update...
Walked away, got irritated, went back out and cut a bit of a bushing and put everything back on. Had to bounce the nose while spinning the nut to get it to catch, but finally got it on there and gave 'er a few ugga duggas.
Still slightly annoyed that the front sits so high, especially after the fight to get simple things attached..but hopefully they'll work in here soon.
Are you sure the springs were clocked properly when installed? There's a notch at the top to accept the end of the coil. If it's not installed correctly, that could account for the front end sitting too high. There's also a spec in the CSM for how far the end of the coil at the bottom can be from a reference point on the lower control arm. Did you follow that? You wouldn't be the first person to have this problem.
Are you sure the springs were clocked properly when installed? There's a notch at the top to accept the end of the coil. If it's not installed correctly, that could account for the front end sitting too high. There's also a spec in the CSM for how far the end of the coil at the bottom can be from a reference point on the lower control arm. Did you follow that? You wouldn't be the first person to have this problem.
I'm about 98% sure I did. I know for sure I did on the back, but the front I'm a bit foggy on. Is there a way to verify without blowing everything apart?
The notch in the frame (upper seat for the spring) and the reference hole in the lower control arm (lower seat for the spring) are fixed in relation to each other. With a factory spring (or replacement spring), the square cut ends of the top and bottom coils should be in an orientation that insures when installed, the upper end of the coil is in the frame notch and the lower end of the coil is within spec to the hole in the lower control arm. As I mentioned, this is spelled out in the CSM and gives the allowable tolerance for how far the lower end of the coil can be from the hole in the lower control arm once installed.
I don't know anything about the replacement springs you used. It should be safe to 'assume' the upper and lower end coils are oriented as they should be but that could be a dangerous assumption so I'd recommend checking both the top and bottom on the car to make sure everything is seated as it should be. The tops will be a royal PITA since the coil spring will mostly hide what you're trying to see. A small mirror or phone camera might be helpful. You'll have to do your best to shine a light at the upper seat in the frame and look to see if the end of the coil is in the frame notch. The bottom will be a whole lot easier. There is a small hole in the seat of the spring near where the end of the coil should be. The CSM will tell you the max distance the end of the coil can be from that hole. Do your best to estimate your current distance.
Okay. I don't remember 100% how they were regarding top vs. bottom of the spring. I talked to a buddy of mine and I think I'm going to run it out to his shop and put it on his lift. From there, we'll be able to get a better look at things. Will they be able to be spun with everything still hooked up?
Not a chance. In fact, I doubt you'd be able to 'spin' one even with one of the ball joints unbolted and the lower control arm drooping down. You'll have to get almost all pressure off that spring to turn it - if you have to. Let's hope a visual inspection confirms they're installed correctly.
Not a chance. In fact, I doubt you'd be able to 'spin' one even with one of the ball joints unbolted and the lower control arm drooping down. You'll have to get almost all pressure off that spring to turn it - if you have to. Let's hope a visual inspection confirms they're installed correctly.
Alright, as crude as it may be..I got underneath (sorta) with my phone and took a video to see if I could tell how the springs lined up according to the holes.
it looks as if the DS is clocked so the spring starts between the holes and the PS has both holes covered.
I don't think you're going to be able to see and check the top. On the bottom, you need to figure out where the end of the coil is in relation to the small hole in the lower control arm seat. This distance is what you're checking. I don't have my CSM handy or I'd give you the page number to reference. There's a section in there about changing the springs and it specifically shows what I'm talking about along with the tolerance allowed. I saw your video of it going down the street. It doesn't look that high in the front to me. If anything, it looked like the tail might be a little low but it's hard to tell. Have you verified the springs you installed? By that I mean spring rate versus something like a MOOG replacement for your model with options?
......... I saw your video of it going down the street. It doesn't look that high in the front to me. If anything, it looked like the tail might be a little low but it's hard to tell.
I don't think you're going to be able to see and check the top. On the bottom, you need to figure out where the end of the coil is in relation to the small hole in the lower control arm seat. This distance is what you're checking. I don't have my CSM handy or I'd give you the page number to reference. There's a section in there about changing the springs and it specifically shows what I'm talking about along with the tolerance allowed. I saw your video of it going down the street. It doesn't look that high in the front to me. If anything, it looked like the tail might be a little low but it's hard to tell. Have you verified the springs you installed? By that I mean spring rate versus something like a MOOG replacement for your model with options?
I need to dig my books out anyway, so I'll make a point to look that up as well.
Here are the specs on the springs: Front 3.620 ID .690 Wire 1642 lbs @ 12" 449.9 lbs/in 15.650 Free height
Bringing this back up, as it was once again suggested to me that the front being high may be due to the rear being low. I have not had a chance to get measurements (when I think about it, I'm either not on level ground or don't have a tape measure handy) but it was suggested that I may not have the correct shocks on it, and that i'd be pulling the back end down.
First, is that even a thing?
Second, I put Monroe Sensatracs on them (pretty sure thats what they were) back in 2021 as one of the first things I did. I 'thought' they were the same size as factory, however they were also installed with the engine out. Would there be any correlation to that being the issue? I know in the fall (after the engine was installed) I noticed I'd left a bushing off one of the front shocks and it was a nightmare to get the front down enough to put the nut on the shock with the appropriate bushings installed. So, its definitely high in the nose, but it could be from the back being low.
Bringing this back up, as it was once again suggested to me that the front being high may be due to the rear being low. I have not had a chance to get measurements (when I think about it, I'm either not on level ground or don't have a tape measure handy) but it was suggested that I may not have the correct shocks on it, and that i'd be pulling the back end down.
First, is that even a thing?
Second, I put Monroe Sensatracs on them (pretty sure thats what they were) back in 2021 as one of the first things I did. I 'thought' they were the same size as factory, however they were also installed with the engine out. Would there be any correlation to that being the issue? I know in the fall (after the engine was installed) I noticed I'd left a bushing off one of the front shocks and it was a nightmare to get the front down enough to put the nut on the shock with the appropriate bushings installed. So, its definitely high in the nose, but it could be from the back being low.
1. Buy another tape measure and put it in the car's glove box, along with a paper and pencil or ball point pen.
2. Make sure the tires are inflated correctly.
3. Find a flat, level hard surface to measure the body height per the CSM. Write the measurements down on the paper.
Haha, no need to buy another..Ive got plenty. I just never think about it when it's convenient. But since Im home, the cars home, and I'm thinking about it..Ill go do just that.
Would the shocks pull the car down though in the back? That kinda seems a tad ridiculous to me, but I'm kinda befuddled at this point
Thought I updated this, but evidently never did...
With the aforementioned measurements on ride height, how the heck do I go about lowering the front? I know at least one of the front springs, if not both (running on memory here), are NOT indexed correctly. Even if both are not, would that be enough to create the near inch difference?
If they're not, do I need to blow the front end back apart, or can they be turned with weight off the wheels?
Well, in doing more research I stumbled upon a couple different GM A body forums who mentioned indexing the springs..specifically you can be as little as 1/4" off and it'll effect ride height as much as 1". Based on that alone, that tells me we're tearing the front end apart and re-indexing the springs.
Gonna wait and use my buddies shop once things settle out, much more room to run.
March 7th, 2022, 08:28 AM
