Oldsmaniac

You might see if you can pull the dust/inspection cover off the trans and wedge something (chunk of wood) etc between torque converter and trans bell housing to lock it up while tightening the balancer bolt.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Success! I found a spare length of cord attached to a telephone pole across from my house. Snipped it off and ran back to the garage.

Threaded about 3 feet of rope into the cylinder, about 20 degrees before TDC she was locked in. Boom! Torqued her down and all is well.

Now for assembly! I put all the pulleys on (except PS) and fired her up, full of coolant. The fan worked great! I could feel the air getting pulled through the radiator, and she didn't creep past 190 (whereas the car used to hit 220 and above if i let her idle too long) I guess my old water pump was shot.

Also, she's sucking 20" of vacuum on my vacuum gauge! I'm pretty happy with that. Also, unplugged the distributor, loaded up the RPM to 1100 and set the timing to 12BTDC.

64Rocket

It may be just me, but it looks like the belt for the alt does not line up.
Did the new water pump match the old water pump? The length looks to be different.
Maybe its the angle of the pic.

Gene

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Hey Gene,

I think you're definitely right, the new water pump is 1/2'' longer than the old one....

Not sure what to do at this point.. I already sealed on the new water pump and everything..

MDchanic

You don't want to hear this, but you need to change the water pump or change the pulleys.

The water pump is probably easier.

If you don't she may throw belts.

- Eric

MDchanic

Tony, after looking at that photo again, it looks like you may actually be one full belt width off. That's a good thing, because it means you may be able to find a 3-sheave water pump pulley that will fit.

I would measure the distance from the water pump shaft mounting surface to the back of the last sheaf, and the diameter, and put up a want ad for it - someone may have one that you could just pop on.
If the diameter is much different, you might have to use a different belt size, and your water pump may turn slower or faster, which may reduce cooling (slower) or suck a small amount of power (faster).

- Eric

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Interesting! So a 3 sheeve water pulley existed? I guess to accomodate W-Cars that had the HD cooling and AC?

I'm not too worried about the belts not fitting, the parts store near me has them at a really good price.

So, do i need to put a add out to people that might have a 4-4-2 pulley? I should probably grab a picture without the belt on and really see how they line up.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Eric,

Looking at the assembly manual, looks like i'd need a "KO" Code pulley? The one for HD cooling and AC looks to be the same.

oldsguybry

They do exist !




my PS pump brakets are mixed and matched , you can see the PS pully is a little off / or the bearings were just shot along with the fan clutch . ( long story )

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Cool! Where can i find a pulley like that? I put out a parts wanted Ad, but nothing yet.

Is yours off one of those W-Cars? How come you changed to that pulley? Did you get a longer water pump?

MDchanic

Tony, look at the diagram you posted - the 3-sheave pulleys were used in all cars with A/C (and I believe those with HD cooling and no A/C as well), not just the W-cars.

Since you're up there in PQ, air conditioning is this thing that makes cold air blow out of holes in the dashboard.
"What's the point?" you may ask, since any air that blows into your car is always cold, even in August.
Well, far, far away, in another country, the air sometimes gets hot enough to make you want to take off your coat. When this happens, they use the A/C so they can leave their coats on.



- Eric

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Do You mean to say people in other countries take off their coats in the summer?!

I was in charlotte for work 6 months ago. It was the middle of december. people were wearing Parkas. I had the top down cruisin' at 75mph. It was a beautiful day. The looks on their faces? Golden.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Gentlemen,

Check out my video and let me know what you think

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koEqwZPD0rw

Eric, I've found a really nice pulley (see this link https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...plication.html)

from one of our members, look like a good deal for 25 dollars?

Thanks,

Tony

oldsguybry

as far as I know , it's original for that motor ( 76 motor ) for it has A/C and would need the extra pulley ( this is how it was when I bought it , except that I ordered a waterpump for a 72 motor but seems the same length ). I'm not sure where you would obtain a triple pulley though .

MDchanic

I can't say specifically whether that pulley is the right one for you, Tony, as there are a number of different offsets and diameters which changed with different years and applications. In your case, where you are trying to use a single pulley to fudge the wrong water pump, the actual offset measurement is the most important thing.
These pulleys were used in sets, and the ones you have were probably never used with any of the pulleys that you are looking for, so there is no guide (as far as I know) to which is the right one.
If you look at the illustration you posted, you can see that the three-sheave pulleys are all significantly smaller in diameter than yours is, and their corresponding crank pulleys seem to be a bit larger. This is so that they spin the water pump faster, to provide better cooling for cars with A/C, at the expense of a slight loss of engine power (and fuel economy) through the greater resistance involved in spinning the pump faster.

Bottom line: see if the distance from the mounting flange on the water pump shaft to the edge of the pulley gets it to where the belt needs to be, and you'll be all set.

- Eric

oldcutlass

Here are 2:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trks...ulley&_sacat=0

Octania

I have dozens and dozens of pulleys. Numerous 3-groove sets.

The CORRECT solution is to use the correct pulley set per the above Asm. Manual page. With the correct matching water pump. Search "Water Pump 101" here for all about the permutations of water pumps.

Then decide if you want to fix it semi-rectally with a 3g pulley set, or use a 2 groove set with the proper matching pump.

If you need a 3g set, I would just need to know what exact letter codes or stamped in PN's to look for.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Cool! Thanks for the link.

I found one on this site too, https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...plication.html

It's good to know there are alot available.

Eric,

I'm going to run downstairs and measure the offset that i need.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Great! Thanks for the heads up.

I might actually need a Power steering pulley too come to think of it if that is offset too.

So, i have a non-A/C Car with a HD Water pump. I believe is the bottom-right option?

64Rocket

I think you would be better off getting the correct water pump. Instead of fooling around with all the pulleys. You have the correct pulleys now, just get the correct pump. JMO...

Gene

Allan R

Funny you should say that. I thought the same thing, but then thought it might just be the photo. If it really is that offset, the new water pump isn't going to last as long as Tony hopes.

MDchanic

I will jump into this again in spite of growing trepidation.

The only reason to measure the length of the pump is to be able to change the pump to the correct one - it won't help with the pulleys.

To change that one pulley, you've got to measure the pulley.

I do not disagree that the best way to rectify this situation is to replace the water pump, or to replace all of the pulleys with a matched set.

HOWEVER, IF Tony can find the right pulley, he can get away with changing just that one, and should be fine, without major surgery. Remember, if the new pulley matches the crank pulley and the alternator pulley, it will match the P/S pulley, too.

- Eric

Allan R

Eric, I get what you're saying. Trying to work out something with Tony as we type. I might be able to help him with that pulley. Do not adjust your Mac, we are in control of it now, Welcome to the world of Water Pump outer limits..... please stand by......

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Dear all,

Thanks in advance for all your help. SO i just measured my old water pump, and guess what? 5.1 inches tall. No wonder why it doesnt line up! (The new one pictured above was around 5 and 5/8'') Difference of around 0.525''

Please see the picture below. it seems that the alternator pulley is sitting right where the PS should be!

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Aw crud, i was supposed to measure the pulley too wasn't i...

Here is a better picture from straight above.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Cue 'twilight zone' music

Allan R

Tony, can't get the pic tonight. What is the height of your old water pump assuming you haven't trashed it yet? I don't get why your replacement pump wouldn't be a direct bolt in. You're using the same pulley that was on it, and all the belts lined up ok before??

We'll get this worked out one way or another. Check your email in a few minutes.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Hey Al,

yeah exactly, i "thought" I bought the right pump, Turns out the new one is 0.525'' longer than the old one. Which means it's almost exactly 1 belt too far out.

Take a look at this picture, it's sitting right where the PS should be...

Allan R

Ok, that's the 'best' news I've heard tonight about this thing. I'll be in touch tomorrow with some stuff on your home email. Possibly work out better for you since you have to replace this pump now anyway.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

So i measured the pulley i have in my car.

From the edge where it sits against the water pump to the furthest edge of the second groove it's 2.125''

That seems kind of short. Do i have the wrong pulley to begin with??

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Here is a picture of what i measured.

Dave Siltman

The continuing saga of thr Oldsmobile water pump lengths. When you said (way back when) that you had obtained a new water pump, I almost cringed! Us "old-timers" have "been there and done that" early in our Oldsmobile careers. If I may throw in my two cents, BUY THE RIGHT PUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It will save you time, headaches, and somewhere down the road, you'll thank yourself. Some of those pulleys are going to be close and some might be dead-on, but the General payed some engineers who are pretty smart to design it the way it works the best! Pump width, pulley width, pulley diameter, all have a designed interaction with each other for a reason. I've said it before, and I'll say it again:::"Do it nice, not twice".

Dave Siltman

I should have done some proof-reading before posting----sorry for the mistakes. I think you get my point.

Allan R

Tony, when you ordered this pump from Rockauto, was it the one listed as: 252202 (replaces OE 12493951)? Said to be for base/S w/o HD or AC.

To fit 71/72 properly the casting on the pump should be 408328 and have a large 7 cast on the front just to the side. I got this number from the Olds Water Pump database and just checked mine. It's exactly what the database says, and it's measured at 5.1"

I went back through your thread to see if what numbers might be visible on the pics but nothing I could see there.

The 412265 (with 4 cast on the side) is the common HD water pump and is 6.1". The KE pulley I was telling you about with that pump WILL work. Just got through cleaning it yesterday and it's ready for paint.

2 questions.
1. Do you want to keep the stock water pump or go HD? I have the right one on my car right now and you could have it if you want. I just have to take it off. I know it's good. Oh, you would need a new gasket obviously.
2. If you want HD, you need to order the right pump. I have a spare pulley, fan clutch and a 7 blade fan (not tech correct for the car, but right diameter) you could use. If you want them, I'll post pics here so you can see them first.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Hey Al!

Sorry for the late response, been in Toronto seeing family for the weekend so havnt had time to work on my olds It's been horrible... lol

I've thought long and hard, and i think i'd like to keep the water pump thats on my car now. I did such a nice job of masking and painting it, that if i can make it work i'll try my best.

Worse comes to worse, if i really can't seem to make it work i'll have to get the right setup. (Engine needs a rebuild soon anyway... )

I asked stlbluesbrother to measure the KO pulley from the 350 HD setup. supposedly it's 2.875 inches wide, which i measured and looks like it would line my belts right up where they should be (0.750 inches longer than mine)... does the KE pulley have the same width measurement? Or was the 455 a bit bigger?

Allan R

Tony,
The KE is 2" wide on the grooves and measure 3 5/8" it total height. It probably won't work on the water pump you have without hitting those cast gussets. The 6.1 I'm going to install is high enough that it allows the bell of the pulley to clear the gussets.

You got some nasty heat going down there. TV news says you're at 29°. Ick! I hate high temps and humidity.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Dear All,

Got a great looking powercoated pulley from Mike. The pulleys line up REAL close. All i might need is a washer or two under the lip and it should be perfect.

Allan R

So it's up and running? What pulley code did you end up installing?

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Running smooth! No squeaking!

It's a KO pulley off a 72'

The only thing left is to hook up the power steering brackets, i need to figure out which spacer i need for the upper timing bracket. I "think" i may have swapped it out for one that's too short.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Thanks to everyone who helped. Here is a picture taken this morning of my Olds sitting on 4 wheels.