nuttkaze

I about to repaint AND put new interior in my 71' cutlass Vert. My painter will be able to get to it within 3 weeks. So far I have change everything underneat except the fron control arms which were blacsted and repainted. All new front end, bushings, went to posi traction w/3.42 gears, gas tank, upper and lower rear control arms, tie rods, ider arms, pittman arm, center link, front and rear shocks and springs, ball joints, went to a 4 row radiator and couple other things i can't remember. My car has the original 350 4-barrel and 350 trans. I will take the motor and trans out, send the motor off to the machine shop and clean it up and whatever else that has to be done. Rebuild the transmission. What to do with the heads? I'm looking to get as much torque/hp as possible with maintaining driviablity. I want as much compression as poosible while staying on pump gas..10:1!!!

I'm buying RAM Air Cleaner for my Ram Air Hood!!!

Intake- EDEL RPM Performer

Carb-Rebuild the factory Quad which is a 4-Barrel..sending it off to Sparky's

Cam-Depends on compression.."give opinions"..looking to get around 10:1

True Roller Timing chain-Suggestinos please on what kind? What about a double roller?

Heads- Clean up the original #7 putiting 2.00 or 2.07 intake valves (What the difference of the intake valves?), but still give suggestions!!!

Pistons-What kind..looking to get about 9.75:1 to 10:1..no higher!!!

Headers-ceramic coated long tube, but I'm unsure on which ones to go with? Thinking about hedman or hooker!!

Gears-Installed posi 3.42

Torque Converter-Do I need one? What stall would you all recommend?

Transmission-Will rebuild!!! Do you all suggest a shift kit?

HEI Ignition-All MSD

GIVE YOUR OPINIONS!!!!!

Joffroi

Looks great, I've never seen that color combo before.

captjim

RPM intake, fine
Q-jet, fine
Speed Pro 6cc dish will give you mid 9s, flat tops 10 to 1. All depending on deck, chamber, etc. I would shoot a little lower and use the 6cc dish and a cam in the 220@ .050 on the intake.
Cloyes 3 position chain
Heads, 2.00" is fine, spring for a street port flow accentuating low lift flow (an extra $300+/-)
Headers, get the best that you can afford.
Gears fine
Converter, the car will not more without one. Seriously, this is one place guys always skimp, get a good one.
I would not bother with MSD and just go with a Pertronix HEI. Cheaper, easier, just as good.

nuttkaze

Captjim....what size converter would you recommend and what name brand?

gearheads78

The converter needs to be matched to the rest of the combo. Pick your cam and power range then pick a converter to match.

For mild street car stuff I have had good luck with ATI's street line and I don't know how but a $300.00 Huges lived behind a 800HP 4200lb truck I built for a buddy so I would not hestatate to use one in a mild car.

captjim

I have $650 Coan and there is no going back. That said, you don't need a $600 unit. The thing that most guys misunderstand is that quality converter will stall consistently yet not slip or be sloppy at part throttle. Stay away from $129 cheapo stuff, I personally have heard bad things about B&M. Anything in the $300 range like gearheads mentioned should be OK. Perhaps make another thread and get suggestions? Whichever brand you choose, call their tech dept and get their input, but I'm guessing 2800 +/-

nuttkaze

As far as Heads-should have the hardened seats, so check and/or replace?
What about fill the crossovers and weld the dividers?
What about bowl work?

My Machinist is damn good, but has a lack of knowledge for Olds..he is a chebby guy!! I need as much info from you all to relate to him.

cutlassefi

Not to be a smartass but if he's that good then the brand of engine won't matter.

67 Cutlass Freak

I agree with cutlassefi. Many machinists that are Ford & Chevy guys really don't know what specs Olds engines like to live with. Do yourself a favor and by this book-
http://highperformanceolds.com/phpbb...hp?f=28&t=2712
It has a ton of good information. IMHO you should find one person, preferably a fellow Olds enthusiast, that can help you choose all the right components, for all your needs, that's within your budget. By the way cutlassefi can help you choose a good, modern grind cam, after you fill in the blanks with the other details.

nuttkaze

All I'm asking..can you give me as much info to relate to him. Only thing he knows about Olds is ordering parts from dick miller, but that was 15+ yrs ago. I know Dick Miller isn't the same!! As much info would be great as to what to buy/do to accomplish my goals..thats all!!!

67 Cutlass Freak

Your asking a lot. Please do yourself a favor & buy Bill's book. I gaurantee you won't be sorry. You may also want to look into Mondello's technical reference manual. I'm going to give you a link to another website that has Oldsmobile engine builds. Pick one you like and follow his parts list like a recipe card.
http://72.22.90.30/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=16
You really need to figure out your goals. How much track usage? How many miles per year? How often do you plan on refreshing the engine? How original do you want it to be? What is your total budget? How fast do you want it all to happen? Will you be assembling the engine yourself or doing any other work on the car? Besides your imediate goals what are your long term goals? Will you be adding NOS, a turbo, a blower, aluminum heads or fuel injection? will the rest of your car hold up to the added ponies? I'm not trying to be a smart ***, but you really want to answer all these questions as acurately and specifically as you can. One more thing to consider when diving into a major build is your future financial situation. Our economy sucks so bad right now almost no ones job is secure. I'd hate to see you dive into this thing headfirst into a pool with only six inches of water. It really sucks to start a project and then realize half way through that you can't finish it, for one reason or another. If your car runs and drives OK now, buy another engine and start building it up. Engine cores are plentiful. Enjoy your ride while you build the other engine exactly how you want it. Here's some more food for thought- it will cost you just about the same amount to build a stout SB as a BB. Why not go big. There is no replacement for displacement. The fun factor will be even higher.

380 Racer

I will agree somewhat. I don't think either of those books is the "Olds Bible" of engine building. My engine builder was not an Olds guy either, but he is very good. He builds all makes to race. I also disagree about going BB as a cure-all. I obviously like my SBs. The biggest thing is to decide what you want and can afford. Trust me the cost can quickly get out of hand! The one thing over the years that stands out is that I have a lot of pride in my car and how fast it goes. I love it when people compare it to a Chevy and my car does better than the Chubby as long as they are both built similar. The big small block has been very impressive, but was very expensive.

Run to Rund

I feel that the basic power level revolves around the camshaft. Decide what power range you want and what compromises in idle, etc. you can deal with happily. Then choose the other stuff to work with it. More cam and you can and should go with more compression and still run street gasoline. Then decide if and what intake to go with the size cam, and which converter to keep in the power band.

You can get recommendations for a cam in the 205 deg. at .050" lift up to 245 deg. in the hydraulics, and more in the solids--all of them would work in a 350, going from mild street to NHRA drag racing. The J/S record, 11.37 sec., of Sam Murray's low compression 350 in a 1972 Cutlass was just retired, undefeated. Obviously he uses a lot more camshaft than street vehicles, and doesn't let low compression hold him back in picking a big cam to work the best on the drag strip. Another guy using the 350 for daily commuting with best fuel mileage would pick a lot smaller cam.

firefrost gold

getting good info go to v 8 tv .com there is a olds build up on there from btr. The rpm and the ram air hood and air cleaner from olds are not going to work the rpm is tall and the hood clearance will not work with stock parts so be prepared for some modifications
on it .

nuttkaze

OAI w/ Performer RPM manifold and ram air hood..I will have to massage the air cleaner base a little to add some "low rise" contour to it and trim the foam gasket to half normal height...

captjim

I have stated this a gazillion times, but just find a similar build with known performance and copy it.

firefrost gold

is there a difference in the oai 350 set up vs 455 oai ? I know 68 pontiac are a lower type of base ram air on them no solenoid just a foam rim ?

71 Cutlass

One of the best threads with solid, good info from everyone. My favorite line is what Rund to Rund wrote: "I feel that the basic power level revolves around the camshaft. Decide what power range you want and what compromises in idle, etc. you can deal with happily. Then choose the other stuff to work with it."

Here's my 350 set up. Keep in mind my compression is a little too high, so I like your notion about 9.75:1. Being safe is always better than being sorry.

Edelbrock Performer RPM intake manifold
Edelbrock Performer Carburetor (600CFM 4 barrel).
Edelbrock carburetor insulator gasket (0.320")
Edelbrock True Roller timing chain
Comp Cams Camshaft XE262H(Duration @.050 218/224 Lift 475"/.480" LSA110)
Forged flat top pistons/rings (by Diamond) from Dick Miller Racing
W-31 stainless steel valves (2" intake, 1.625" exhaust)
Head porting (pocket) 3 angle valve job, tear drop valve guides
Sanderson Headers (Part # 0351—shorty type)
3.42 Posi track (originally 2.56 open)
TCI Torque converter 2400 stall (Breakaway # 241100)
Transgo shift kit #2
MSD Pro-Billet Distributor and MSD Blaster 2 Ignition Coil
MSD Super Conductor spark plug wires (8.5mm)
Walker Dynomax turbo mufflers/dual exhaust (originally single)
Spectre Performance Air Filter w/ K&N X-Stream Air Filter lid
Bored 60 over, 10.5:1 compression ratio

oldzzy

What made you pick this cam? It seems pretty mild, doesn't it?

Aceshigh

Have you done a rear chassis dyno or engine dyno on this combo yet ??

I'm curious how it looked for actual power #'s.
Especially after you got burned with the Edelbrock power package results.

nuttkaze

Your build have been printed out for 4 months now!!!!! I talked to you this summer..did you ever get a chance to dyno it?

71 Cutlass

Cam choice: due to car being my everyday driver, as opposed to a drag car.

Dyno: A guy in our local Olds club set the members up for a dyno run on our cars (at a reduced rate) this Fall. Not sure what happened, but the whole deal fell through. I believe everything is rescheduled for the spring. Will hopefully have numbers then.

HWYSTR455

Almost identical build to mine, same cam, though I'm running a 670 Avenger carb. The build is roughly a 375-410hp engine, flywheel, depending on the heads and a couple other small items.

Converters, the Coans are nice, so are the Continentals, but I've run the TCI breakaway before, and that's what's going in mine, with the anit-balloon plate. They work well with a little gear (more than 308), and allow for a little more cam.

A local trans shop should be able to rebuild the trans for 'bracket' use, and they will like using 'shift kits' of their' liking, so you really don't have to tell them anything but you wanting a 'firm' shift. They will use reds and koleans in a bracket rebuild.

Cloyes is my preference for timing chains too, are usually dead-nuts on when it comes to degreeing. Still have to check it with a degree wheel though.

Heads are what is going to be the drawback on these engines, and are better suited for lower rpm use. Not a bad thing, can get tons of torque out of them, which is what the engineers were shooting for. So when you look at cams for the 350s, they 'seem' smaller than the chebby counter parts. Actually, the 218/224 @ 50 is moving to the larger selections for these engines, odd as it may seem, and right around 250-260 @ 50 is about all they can take advantage of. (max RPM is roughly 6250, but normally 5250-5500 is the power making range limit). They do like wider LSAs too, a mistake most often made is choosing a single pattern cam. (I would have prefered more LSA on the XE262, like say 114).

Use stainless one piece valves, they don't come apart, and help transfer heat from the seat, so you don't need hardened seats. Hardened seats are a waste. Minor bowl cleanup and flash removal is pretty much all the headwork you need, since changing the shape of the ports actually hurts flow.

Ignition - plenty of HEI distributors out there that are fine, and not expensive. I've seen one place on eGay that sells them for like 60 bucks. new billet body, all new parts, amazing it's that inexpensive. Just adjst the curve for your build and you're done. MSD is overpriced, and over rated.

The Edelbrock carbs have some issues that only a carb specialty shop can correct. And once you spend that much, you might as well have a holley. You can get away with a 650/670 cfm, though the 750/770 might be more optimal, and give some room to grow. The Q-jets are great too, when properly prepped.

PS - Excessive use of exclamation points is considered yelling!
.

If you're green to building, your best bet is to call a builder so they can guide you towards a 'complete' package, is the least amount of waste that way.

cutlassefi

I'm interested in your feedback.

HWYSTR455

Not going for a lengthy response, but in general, here's some reasoning behind my comments:

"...Smaller than Chevy counterparts": Due to port velocity and overall flow. If you look at all the heads that are available for SBCs, most flow in the 275+ range, and can take advantage of higher durations (to fill cyl). Technically, the statement is 'incorrect', but figured it would be understood. Overcamming is a typical 'mistake' for smaller runner/port designs.

Wider LSAs, single pattern: Yes, unrelated, and after re-reading, realized that could be confusing, sorry. (I stepped away from writting the response several times). First, wide LSA is not particularly a small block/big block thing, it's a head flow thing. You want wide to fill, since you're trying to do it through a smaller 'hole'. You also get better vacuum, idle, and part-throttle with wider LSAs. Take a look at the DSE Real Street camaro, which a 121 LSA cam was installed as an example. (And that's a blower engine).

Single pattern: intake to exhaust flow ratio is a good way to determine if an engine (head) would benefit from a split/dual pattern cam. Also, you can actually create a 'vacuum' using the exhaust to further help fill the cyl (overlap). More of that usually occurs with more LSA.

114 as oppossed to 110 on the XE262: See above. Better vacuum, idle, and part-throttle response, simply put. Better cyl filling. Model it with your fav engine program and see what the diff is, bet you'll be surprised. The XE262 is listed with an operating rpm of 1200-5600, and on a 114, bet that would drop the start range to idle. The 5600 rpm Comp lists is actually stretching it, and it's more like 4800-5200 max where it will nose-over (some due to head flow too). The XE lobe profiles also are a little chattery, but not going there.

The Crower 56262 or 56263 are better choices, as is the VooDoo 256/262 and 262/268 (all 112). Those are what I would have chosen for my build, though I got a deal on the Comp, so went with it. Most likely would have had them ground on a wider LSA too, but Lunati doesn't turn around too quick.

.

cutlassefi

General rule of thumb, tight lobe seps make more power sooner, more peaky. Wider ones flatten the torque curve. Most times with a small block you need that extra power now (tight lobe sep), with a big block you have the displacement to move the vehicle initially but by then having a wide lobe sep you essentially extend that power band. And smaller cams generally perform better on tighter lobe sep than wider ones. Larger cams are fine on wider lobe seps cuz you now have more ample duration needed for good cylinder filling.

I base my comments on my many years of experience as well as a close working relationship with the 2 lead guys at Erson who between them have about 40 years experience.

I just attended a seminar at the PRI last week on this very subject, the latest in valve and head technology as well as Direct injection. That seminar supported my claims here.

HWYSTR455

Very text book responses, and, using 'new heads' (chevy) as found on 'new engines' (chevy), I'm sure all the theory holds true. Still doesn't take into account the design of the older engines, at least beyond theory. Not trying to get into a pissen match, totally understand the 'direction' these days, and WHERE the information is coming from. There's a point where the lines of the graph intersect when talking about lsa, effects, and amount of duration, guess some of my short sightedness is from too many years of the street/strip scene. But I am familiar with BOPs, and effective rpm ranges of. Flatter isn't particularly lazier, and peak is still very close. Why limit yourself to a narrow powerband that's higher in the RPMs, for maybe a 5-10% increase in peak, where you spend maybe 10% of your driving? Why are all the newer performance cars running wide LSAs from the factory? (And not particularly boosted cars). As I'm sure you know, dyno-flogging is far from what it will do while in a car, and far from what it will do going down the track too.

As an example, what type of intakes respond most favorably to tight LSAs? (single plane)
In general, what final drive ratio gears do tighter LSA cams favor? (higher numerical, to maintain rpms in peak ranges)
See the pattern?
For a dual-purpose car, like, street/strip, given a choice of 2 identical cams, only diff being one is a 106 LSA, and the other 114 LSA, which would you suggest to the thread poster here?

BOP heads, aside from a few specialty ones, even ported, drop off significantly over about .525-.625 lift, and around 5300-6200 rpm. And those upper limits are for strip prepped port jobs, far from the norm. What does 5 or 7 heads flow? In general? Maybe 260-280 max? What will that support? And displacement is only going to be further hampered by the flow. So without the head support, wouldn't you build an engine that makes more torque, lower in the rpm range?

If you're doing a street/strip car, what would your target rpm be? Idle to 5500, or 4500-6500?

One summer i bought over 12 cams and tried them all in the 'bird. I had it down to an art and could change one in under 2 hours, and went from one spectrum to the other, to satisfy my own curiousity. I did intakes, carbs, and gears with those cams too, going from single planes, dual quad, tunnel rams, you name it. I've done all my own engines too, the latest is number 13 in the 'bird, 7 in the LeMans, and have had quite a few other cars, not to mention the cars and engines I've built for others. I've been building cars and engines since 1977, and that doesn't count the motorcycle engines I've built since the late 60s. I've got some time and experience under my belt, and not from listening to guys that have 40 years combined experience, only point I'm trying to make there.

I will admit, I'm a hobbyist, not a professional car guy, and hopefully I can show all what I've learned, and I can admit when I'm wrong. Do enjoy learning too!

I think we're roughly on the same side of the fence cutlassefi, must have ticked you off at some time, sorry if so. Not my intention at all. Sure we'd have fun bench racing over a beer!

Ok, sorry guys, I've been pulled away from this a bunch, not going to re-read it all, have to run....

.

cutlassefi

I'm not ticked off at all, on the contrary I like the discussion. And I understand your own experiences and quite frankly would be extremely interested in knowing what cams you tried. That info and your feedback on each would be great, maybe we can put our heads together and exchange ideas. But some info out there is just plain wrong no matter what the application.

I just did a cam for my buddy. He replaced a generic 214/224, .472/.496 on a 112 Edelbrock cam with a custom Erson, 232/244, .568/.568 on a 108 in a Edelbrock headed, Performer equipped 9.8:1 455. You'd think his low end torque would suffer due to the the increased duration right? It didn't, in fact he said it's now a beast right off the line, it's never ever run like this especially on the low end. Why? The tight lobe sep and early install helped as well as the added lift. He's beside himself as to the difference in overall performance as well as the amount of added low end punch, even with 20 degrees more duration on each intake and exhaust, that's a bunch. Go figure. Plus the additional lift also supports my claim that more lift typically makes more power everywhere.

captjim

It always surprises me how many different opinions there are when it comes to cams. No wonder guys get overwhelmed. I agree with Mark that lift is good. Guys say it wears the valve train, but how much driving are we talking about?

I agree with HWY about low rpms on Olds engines, that is why "Chevy cams" really don't work as well IMO. In my 9 to 1 355 in a G-0body wagon with 3.42s I had a 214/224 472/496 lazy-azz cam in it. Several builders and racers said it was perfect. Ran 14.8 with an absurd 60', like 2.4. Heads were mildly ported #7s with stock valves. These heads just are not made to make high rpm power. Changed to a 16/18 Engle, 210/216 472/488 on a 112. 13.9 with a 2.033 60'

One day at the test-n-tune, there was nobody there. So, I did several runs in a row, shifting at 4400, 4600, 4800, 5,000, and 5200. ET was within .15 either way, nosed over at 5200. Best ET was at 4800, yes 4800. Sounds absurd, but I have always been a fan of short-shifting a heavy car. BTW, that cam loooooved a little n2o, ran 12.8 @ 103 shifting at 4600.

As to dynos, not a huge fan, glorified break-in stands. We did a little 289 SBF kinda "K code" copy. EP-22 solid. Had a 600 Holley, best numbers were with 60 jets. But, that went into a fairly heavy car (Fairlane) and ran best numbers with 65 jets. Why? Perhaps with the extra load it wanted more fuel, I don't know. Dynos get them close but the truth is in the ET, IMHO.

cutlassefi

x2

captjim

As always, it is never just one thing but the total combination of parts and tune. I did not mean to imply that one cam or lobe sep was better, just that in my car the 16-18 was better than the old 214/224. Under other circumstances (more compression, gear, lighter car,head volume, etc) the other cam would probably perform better.

cutlassefi

Again I agree.

HWYSTR455

I love you guys! Hwh-heh!

K, here's a short=shot of over my bench in the garage witha few cam cards to give you an idea....(few of my favoritves)


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HWYSTR455

Vintage shot!

Here's a test-mule Pontiac 400, 30 over, where I was doing some cam swaps, probably had at least 10 in this engine.

Check out the vintage Mallory coil! Ha! Too funny!

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