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im guessing most people are aware that Olds production paperwork supposedly burned up in a fire sometime in the early 70s. So unlike with the Pontiac Historical Society (where you can provide the vin and learn about the selling dealer, order sheet, etc) with Olds no luck.
Having said that, I remember reading in the Olds Club newsletter that paperwork was found for Demmer Engineering that listed selling dealer snd vins for the 68-69 production. Anyone have that info? I’m sure I would have saved that issue, but unfortunately I can’t get to it now.
Every brand has had a fire. Which one is not an urban legend?
I believe the H/O Club of America has the info you speak of.
Most rumors have their origin in fact. After the facts pass thru a few tells is when the rumors really get hard to verify.
Anyway, I have a friend whose mother bought a 69 Hurst Olds new from Wiese Olds here in Kokomo Indiana. She sold the car in the 70s, it passed thru a few different owners. His dad managed to buy the car back and recently finished a body off restoration. I was curious what production number his was. I told him about the article, he asked my to try and find my copy of the Olds club newsletter.
Last edited by matt69olds; December 5th, 2022 at 01:32 PM.
Did you check the list of VINs on the website? There's about 550 of them that are verified H/Os, but that is not a complete list. It also has the Demmer conversion number. Mine is obviously #43. If you have the last 6 numbers of her VIN, check it and see.
The production number was different than the VIN sequence. For example, the very first conversion Demmer did for 69 was actually the 5th W46 car in sequence off the assembly line. They just dumped the cars in the parking lot and then went out and got whichever car they had keys for. They logged it in as it came in the door on sequential numbered sheets and that was the assigned Hurst conversion number.
Even more confusing, is when you filled out and got the Hurst dash plaque, which was optional, they just numbered those in the order received.
Most rumors have their origin in fact. After the facts pass thru a few tells is when the rumors really get hard to verify.
Anyway, I have a friend who’s mother bought a 69 Hurst Olds new from Wiese Olds here in Kokomo Indiana. She sold the car in the 70s, it passed thru a few different owners. His dad managed to buy the car back and recently finished a body off restoration. I was curious what production number his was. I told him about the article, he asked my to try snd find my copy of the Olds club newsletter.
Reach out to Kurt Karch - if you don't have his email address, it's on this page under "Contact Us": http://hurstolds.com/
Did you check the list of VINs on the website? There's about 550 of them that are verified H/Os, but that is not a complete list. It also has the Demmer conversion number. Mine is obviously #43. If you have the last 6 numbers of her VIN, check it and see.
The production number was different than the VIN sequence. For example, the very first conversion Demmer did for 69 was actually the 5th W46 car in sequence off the assembly line. They just dumped the cars in the parking lot and then went out and got whichever car they had keys for. They logged it in as it came in the door on sequential numbered sheets and that was the assigned Hurst conversion number.
Even more confusing, is when you filled out and got the Hurst dash plaque, which was optional, they just numbered those in the order received.
cars were not built by Oldsmobile in VIN sequence order & cars were not completed at Lansing in order based on the body sequence number
Olds just tossed the documentation in a purge. There was no reason to retain this information, and it was all on paper so no reason to pay to store it. Automakers were (and are) in the business of selling new cars, not supporting restoration of cars built half a century ago. The fire urban myth has no proof. The reality is that the Pontiac records were on their way to the dump also when the person who started PHS intercepted them. Olds, unfortunately, was not that lucky.
How do you know the actual...ASSEMBLY line # number for a 69 H/O...Meaning my 69 H/O is # 57 from Demmer ...but..what was the #...from the assembly line..
You want the body number, or the sequence number? Body number is on your cowl tag. Sequence number is just 000-999 repeating. You won't get that unless you get a Lansing build sheet, and they got tossed in a can. Plus, the sequence number doesn't mean anything as it resets each thousand vehicles, so once every day almost.
I mean..Out of all the 69 H/Os...What would mine of been.. Do I look on the registry and just go from earliest VIN Number..til i get to mine and do the math..??..??
I mean..Out of all the 69 H/Os...What would mine of been.. Do I look on the registry and just go from earliest VIN Number..til i get to mine and do the math..??..??
You can probably do the math since many of the W46 cars were accounted for by VIN. Recall the "list" is only 553 known numbers. I checked up through Demmer car #61 and Demmer car #21 isn't there. VIN might be, though as there's a couple without Demmer numbers assigned. Don't know. Your car is the 50th car on the list from lowest known VIN. That's about the best you can do.
Your Demmer number is 'close' to what it may have been in order but certainly not definite.
I've been told they assigned the Demmer number when the car arrived at Demmer.
Then the cars went into a crusty back lot and were then pulled in for conversion in no particular order.
They then went back into the back lot waiting for shipping. So if you are Demmer #57 it's not likely you were the 57th one built...you may be close within... what, 5 or 10 cars maybe?
So maybe a dumb question. Are build sheets found in Hurst cars?
Yep, but I think maybe on par 'frequency wise' with any other Lansing built car? I only found a broadcast card in mine.
I've seen 3 or 4 of them, below is obviously not the best example...
So basically...whenever a car came off the Trailer...they would give that car a number...? and then put it out back..?? but that doesnt mean they GRABBED the sequential cars from the factory...? but kinda gives a pretty good approximation of ..ORDER it was made...
Yep, but I think maybe on par 'frequency wise' with any other Lansing built car? I only found a broadcast card in mine.
I've seen 3 or 4 of them, below is obviously not the best example...
Wow that looks like it is from Google space...🤣
Can you make out anything from that? I would love to see a legible build sheet to see what all is listed.
Wow that looks like it is from Google space...🤣
Can you make out anything from that? I would love to see a legible build sheet to see what all is listed.
Google space taken with a potato...
I have some better examples on my web page.... see the 'Documents' section.....
1969Hurst - that black and white photo of the Demmer 'crusty back lot' is amazing. Man, how did you find that?
With regards to the cars getting numbered, it only makes sense they would receive some sort of Demmer 'reference number' when they were unloaded at Demmer and I have to think this would have been tied to the VIN. If you're an accountant at Oldsmobile and you're tracking truckloads of new cars being shipped to a local 'customizer' for work, only for those cars to be returned to you for sale, you for sure would want a record of every car's VIN and a record that they received that car and could prove it was in their inventory until it was returned to you (or sent to a dealer for final sale). As often gets said, Olds was in the business of selling cars and there were a lot of accountants tracking everything associated with those cars. It wasn't some fly-by-night operation doing custom work. Granted, the system may seem almost prehistoric considering today's global computerized databases but I'm sure they had a system that tracked those cars and it worked.
1969Hurst - that black and white photo of the Demmer 'crusty back lot' is amazing. Man, how did you find that?
With regards to the cars getting numbered, it only makes sense they would receive some sort of Demmer 'reference number' when they were unloaded at Demmer and I have to think this would have been tied to the VIN. If you're an accountant at Oldsmobile and you're tracking truckloads of new cars being shipped to a local 'customizer' for work, only for those cars to be returned to you for sale, you for sure would want a record of every car's VIN and a record that they received that car and could prove it was in their inventory until it was returned to you (or sent to a dealer for final sale). As often gets said, Olds was in the business of selling cars and there were a lot of accountants tracking everything associated with those cars. It wasn't some fly-by-night operation doing custom work. Granted, the system may seem almost prehistoric considering today's global computerized databases but I'm sure they had a system that tracked those cars and it worked.
I am not sure they kept records in depth to the point you might be thinking. The cars were taken from Oldsmobile to Demmer and then returned to Oldsmobile for shipment out. What paperwork that was generated no one knows.
They didn't build cars thinking of the collector market. It was just another fast *** car. Checking sequential numbers? Not so much. Grab the next one. Let's get this done.
I am not sure they kept records in depth to the point you might be thinking. The cars were taken from Oldsmobile to Demmer and then returned to Oldsmobile for shipment out. What paperwork that was generated no one knows.
Pretty much receipt tickets. Serialized receipts from Oldsmobile to Hurst with the last 6 of the VIN. Then when they get there, someone signs the receipt and a copy given to Demmer. The serialized receipts were generic numbers.
Then at some point after the car arrived, Demmer assigned the “Demmer number”. The car got converted at some point and the Demmer ship ticket with the Demmer number preprinted on it is signed off and a separate return receipt to Oldsmobile with another generic serial number on it ( along with the hand written last 6 and the Demmer number) was filled out and copies went to the respective facilities.
That’s been the only “paperwork” found and available for most of the cars. Some cars had more paperwork than others. For example, Car #1 arrived 3/30/69 and shipped back 3/31. My own car #43 arrived 3/31 and shipped back to Olds 4/1. Car#24 arrived the same day mine did but for some reason got sent back to Olds on 4/7. Don’t know what the delay was. Most cars were turned around in a couple of days. Some took longer than others.
Operations like this that happened over a two month period over 50 years ago by a small crew is hard to know exactly how things went in detail. Suffice to say that while the VIN didn’t have anything to do with it, the consensus is that the “Demmer number” is the conversion number of the car. Even though the cars were converted whenever they were grabbed as the numbers technically didn’t do much but maybe track the cars for invoicing or additional purposes.
Car #24 paperwork: Note the "From Oldsmobile, To Hurst" receipt has the arrival date to Demmer facility, and the Delivery receipt and Demmer Ship Tag have the date sent back to Olds.
Last edited by 69HO43; December 5th, 2022 at 07:14 PM.
I am not sure they kept records in depth to the point you might be thinking. The cars were taken from Oldsmobile to Demmer and then returned to Oldsmobile for shipment out. What paperwork that was generated no one knows.
There was generally 3 pieces of paperwork that accompanied each car converted...
Delivery receipt when delivered from Oldsmobile (M Muller transport driver) to Demmer, (J.R.K. Jack Kelly)
Shipping receipt when complete with vin & dealer destination info, Signed by Bill Demmer and Laurence Eubank (transport driver)
Delivery receipt by transport driver (Eubank) back to Olds (Sweeter)
There were a variety of transport drivers that re-occurred in the documents I've seen, all documents I've seen back to Olds were signed by 'Sweeter'. I believe it is 'Sweeter'.
Pretty much receipt tickets. Serialized receipts from Oldsmobile to Hurst with the last 6 of the VIN. Then when they get there, someone signs the receipt and a copy given to Demmer. The serialized receipts were generic numbers.
Then at some point after the car arrived, Demmer assigned the “Demmer number”. The car got converted at some point and the Demmer ship ticket with the Demmer number preprinted on it is signed off and a separate return receipt to Oldsmobile with another generic serial number on it ( along with the hand written last 6 and the Demmer number) was filled out and copies went to the respective facilities.
That’s been the only “paperwork” found and available for most of the cars. Some cars had more paperwork than others. For example, Car #1 arrived 3/30/69 and shipped back 3/31. My own car #43 arrived 3/31 and shipped back to Olds 4/1. Car#24 arrived the same day mine did but for some reason got sent back to Olds on 4/7. Don’t know what the delay was. Most cars were turned around in a couple of days. Some took longer than others.
Operations like this that happened over a two month period over 50 years ago by a small crew is hard to know exactly how things went in detail. Suffice to say that while the VIN didn’t have anything to do with it, the consensus is that the “Demmer number” is the conversion number of the car. Even though the cars were converted whenever they were grabbed as the numbers technically didn’t do much but maybe track the cars for invoicing or additional purposes.
Car #24 paperwork: Note the "From Oldsmobile, To Hurst" receipt has the arrival date to Demmer facility, and the Delivery receipt and Demmer Ship Tag have the date sent back to Olds.
Very interesting !!!
Now, a little "history" (memory) behind my statement.........
I took delivery (NEW) of a 1968 H/O. I don't recall documents like you have shown. I do recall seeing a card in the glove box with the Hurst logo to mail back to "someone" that "registered/certified/documented". I don't know that the "card" was ever mailed back. In 1968 there was a planned build of only 515 cars to meet the "production automobile" qualification for some racing sanction organization.
Keep in mind that "factories" were producing were producing very small amounts (10 or so) of "special" cars for the "factory teams" (NHRA, USAC, NASCAR, etc.). I am sure enough complaints arose about "not being available to the general public". That probably caused the minimum number produced and available to the public.
In 1966, the 442 W-30 only needed 50 units. I am speculating the number went up to 500 in 1968.
A little modern perspective. There's three kinds of paperwork in an automotive company. There's internal documents like manifests, or "build sheets." There's external documents like a purchase of a set of wheels from the supplier for a car, or selling the car to the shipper, or the shipper to the dealer, or the dealer to you. There's documents that are really not documents, but are parts to the car. The owner's manual is considered a car part. It gets installed in the glove box on the line. Although it is cool provenance to have any of those cool documents listed above, the customer was not supposed to get them, which is why they are usually only found in error, like stuffed above the gas tank, or just extra in the glove box because it was easier than tossing them. Like Ralph said, you didn't get them.
For the modern perspective, when my plant builds a Highlander, each page of the manifest is chucked in a bin at the end of the line for which it was used. We, unfortunately, use about ten sheets of paper per car since digital manifests are not quite there yet. That's the "internal." The manual package goes in the glove box. The shipping company gets a packet of paperwork on the passenger seat, which is consumed and used in the process to get to the dealer. The only paperwork the customer gets is the owner's manual packet, and the stuff from the dealer, like the sticker and the sales agreement.
Now, a little "history" (memory) behind my statement.........
I took delivery (NEW) of a 1968 H/O. I don't recall documents like you have shown. I do recall seeing a card in the glove box with the Hurst logo to mail back to "someone" that "registered/certified/documented". I don't know that the "card" was ever mailed back. In 1968 there was a planned build of only 515 cars to meet the "production automobile" qualification for some racing sanction organization.
Keep in mind that "factories" were producing were producing very small amounts (10 or so) of "special" cars for the "factory teams" (NHRA, USAC, NASCAR, etc.). I am sure enough complaints arose about "not being available to the general public". That probably caused the minimum number produced and available to the public.
In 1966, the 442 W-30 only needed 50 units. I am speculating the number went up to 500 in 1968.
500 was the original goal for the 68s IIRC. The 69 started with a plan of 700, but that obviously changed.
Those Demmer documents were never meant for public consumption. The receipts were found in boxes at Demmer and Kurt Karch and Kevin Korff of the H/OCA sifted and sorted through them and put them in order and have copies. But not all of them- meaning another box or two wasn't found. 553 records were found so only 553 can be verfied with Demmer paperwork. I'm going to guess that 68 was done in a similar fashion, although the only paperwork found on them was a Demmer list of assembly for the cars. Judy Badgley and Karl Sarpolis each have a copy of the list and as I understand it, those are the only ones that exist. There could be others, but that's all I know. I didn't follow the 68s journey as tight. I would imagine Demmer has, or had, a similar list for the 69s, but I don't know if it ever existed.
The "registration" for the cars was primarily used to generate a mailing list for Hurst. You "register" your H/O, now they have a list of potential customers. It's like sending in box tops of cereal packages for weird toys as a kid. You get a trinket, or not, but they get your info either way. The infancy of data gathering.
I will say this about the 69s that the VINs exist for. At first, it generally appears that there was about 10 (give or take) W46 cars built per 1000 built. The VINs were separated by around 100 or so cars or so. That would speed up a little once they got going and in some cases, there'd only be like 20-ish cars between VINs before another W46 was built. My speculation is that Olds was scheduling the W46s based on a multitude of data points, likely driven by parts availability, Demmer's schedule, plus the project's two-month window to keep the cars moving as smooth as possible for the project. It's not like they built 900 W46s in a row.
It's always cool to find documentation for cars, especially as they built them. Since we know Lansing was stingy with leaving build documents in cars, it's nice to see that there is Demmer paperwork for the cars. At least all the 68s can be accounted for by VIN anyway. With the popular W-30 option, it'd be cool to find a list of those somewhere for each of the years for verification purposes as well. It's apparent that there hasn't been a lot of fakery that hasn't been spotted on the 69 H/O attempts since there's >50% chance the VIN will be on the list. And you can always check a 68 VIN via the H/OCA.
500 was the original goal for the 68s IIRC. The 69 started with a plan of 700, but that obviously changed.
Those Demmer documents were never meant for public consumption. The receipts were found in boxes at Demmer and Kurt Karch and Kevin Korff of the H/OCA sifted and sorted through them and put them in order and have copies. But not all of them- meaning another box or two wasn't found. 553 records were found so only 553 can be verfied with Demmer paperwork. I'm going to guess that 68 was done in a similar fashion, although the only paperwork found on them was a Demmer list of assembly for the cars. Judy Badgley and Karl Sarpolis each have a copy of the list and as I understand it, those are the only ones that exist. There could be others, but that's all I know. I didn't follow the 68s journey as tight. I would imagine Demmer has, or had, a similar list for the 69s, but I don't know if it ever existed.
The "registration" for the cars was primarily used to generate a mailing list for Hurst. You "register" your H/O, now they have a list of potential customers. It's like sending in box tops of cereal packages for weird toys as a kid. You get a trinket, or not, but they get your info either way. The infancy of data gathering. AH, thats interesting to know. I feel better that I may have thrown away a valuable document.
I will say this about the 69s that the VINs exist for. At first, it generally appears that there was about 10 (give or take) W46 cars built per 1000 built. The VINs were separated by around 100 or so cars or so. That would speed up a little once they got going and in some cases, there'd only be like 20-ish cars between VINs before another W46 was built. My speculation is that Olds was scheduling the W46s based on a multitude of data points, likely driven by parts availability, Demmer's schedule, plus the project's two-month window to keep the cars moving as smooth as possible for the project. It's not like they built 900 W46s in a row.
It's always cool to find documentation for cars, especially as they built them. Since we know Lansing was stingy with leaving build documents in cars, it's nice to see that there is Demmer paperwork for the cars. At least all the 68s can be accounted for by VIN anyway. With the popular W-30 option, it'd be cool to find a list of those somewhere for each of the years for verification purposes as well. It's apparent that there hasn't been a lot of fakery that hasn't been spotted on the 69 H/O attempts since there's >50% chance the VIN will be on the list. And you can always check a 68 VIN via the H/OCA.
As far as the 1968's, I was always going to look to see if I still had billing statements for car insurance for the H/O that showed the VIN. The last I knew, my '68 H/O was totaled in 1970 near Ft. Dodge, Iowa, after it was traded to Hight Chev-Olds in Webster City, Iowa and sold to a local buyer.
I met Jerry Hight (Hight-Chev Olds owner) when H came to my local drag strip, running a light yellow 1968 W-31. He put me in touch with Rich Powers who was an Engineer in the "Dyno wing" at Oldsmobile.
Oldster Ralph getting a brand new 68 Hurst Olds is epic. Do you have pictures new? What directed you to get a 68 Hurst Olds new? I kick myself over and over for not picking up a 68 Hurst Olds back in the eighties. My All time favorite Oldsmobile. Well I would take that gold and black 55/57? in WW and the Dixie Dance Kings also. If you have a thread about your car here I would love to see it.
It's all in the perspective. When I bought my first brand-new car, it was a 1982 Camaro Z28. It was a big deal for me, almost 14K for that joker MSRP, and I didn't look down the road at any potential value it might have, good or bad. I needed a reliable vehicle for the moment, but also wanted something sporty. I did look at the 82 Calais, but there wasn't a 442 or other performance option. So I went with the Z28 as I was trading in a 78 Z28. Most I ever spent on a car prior to that was about $5K.
So yeah, I became GMAC's bitch for a few years. I'm sure that's how it was every time anyone went to buy a new car. Nobody in the public at large knew in '68 they would have a 69 Hurst/Olds, or skip 70-71 and make them again in 72. Everyone would love a time machine and go back in time and either buy an old car they love new or buy some current high-value stock that's split 20 times for cheap and hold on to.
So in the days/months/years after the new car smell and excitement wears off, trading in a car for a newer one isn't that big of a deal- at the time. There's a lot of cars I sold or traded in over the years I wish I had held onto, but also count my blessings as I was able to buy and drive them when I did. I almost traded for a new 84 H/O on the lot, but ordered an 1985 442 with almost every option I wanted, save for lamp monitoring and block heater. Olds did build one for me. And I still have it today. Except this time it would be different. On Day 2, I started immediately buying up new GM parts for its eventual restoration one day.
Oldster Ralph getting a brand new 68 Hurst Olds is epic. Do you have pictures new? What directed you to get a 68 Hurst Olds new? I kick myself over and over for not picking up a 68 Hurst Olds back in the eighties. My All time favorite Oldsmobile. Well I would take that gold and black 55/57? in WW and the Dixie Dance Kings also. If you have a thread about your car here I would love to see it.
The story unfolds........
My "girlfriend" (later my wife) worked at the Cadillac-Olds dealer that sold a lot of "big cars". They were not tuned into a younger market and didn't care about it. I would stop by the dealership to see her and would talk to the "Heavy Maintenance" mechanic (Gary Jensen). He showed me a press release about the H/O and said they were getting one. He told me about again, a couple days later.
So, I went to my "girlfriend" and asked her to check it out for me. The next day, when I stopped by to visit her, she told me they had one coming in and it wasn't "sold". I talked to "Gary" again and thought about it a couple days. At this time I asked my girlfriend if it was "sold" yet. She called me later in the day and said it was not "sold". I told her to ask how much deposit they need for me to buy it. She told me to "call Hunerberg" (New Car Sales manager). After a short phone chat, we agreed on an endorsed paycheck.
Because my "girlfriend" worked in the office doing "billing and statements", she kept track of it before it was even loaded on the transport, and til they received confirmation it was on its way. When it arrived at the dealership, a small crowd of mechanics and salesmen watched it being unloaded. They offered to let her drive it off the transport, but it was on the top row. Once unloaded, "she" drove it into the shop to be readied for delivery.
Word got around that the '68 H/O had been delivered and was in the shop. Apparently, it created enough interest for the dealership to ask me for permission to display it in the showroom for a few days. Several people wanted to "buy" it.
My avatar is a picture of that car when I was racing it. I probably have pictures buried some where of when I owned it.
Last edited by OLDSter Ralph; December 6th, 2022 at 10:18 PM.
Very cool story. Thank you for sharing. Awesome times. What did your car run back then?
That was how it all happened. My "girlfriend" drove it to work on Fridays until it was set up for racing. I even let her drive it in "Powderpuff" drags at the local drag strip. I taught her how to drag and she was very good at it.
The H/O ran 12.40's to 12.0, depending on on the drag strip. That was back before rosin and all those traction mixes, on a 7" wide tire. .
January 24th, 2021, 04:23 PM
