alsmith787

Need some advise about my 69 H/O vin#344879M397942 getting it back to off line condition made a number of adjustments but now I have the original correct #'s ALTERNATOR w/internal regulator - want to rip out external regulator & alternator & convert back to original - Technically my thinking is purchase correct wiring harness - install alternator & (KIND OF) do a Plug & go install-Am I right?
Appreciate any advise or help

69HO43

Sorry, I don't know about the harness, but based on pics of your car with the dealer emblem on the trunk, it was sold new at Bob Moore in Oklahoma City, correct? Interestingly, so was mine. Demmer #43. Yours is like Demmer #849? But I digress.

alsmith787

TY & YES it was #849 bought a Bud Moore as long as you asked do you have any documentation or info on Bud Moore Dealership? Were you successful finding info on your car bought at Moore Dealership? Lastly I'm trying like hell to bring this car up to standard of perfection these subtle changes over the years are maddening lol

Guy Fillinger

Be careful Al or you will turn into a *** just like me. I would give American Auto Wire a call, They make extremely good products and they may be able to help you. I don't know if the alternator wiring is part of a bigger harness and I can't get at my car to look.

alsmith787

TY Guy I'm laughing because this car is turning me into a PURIST no matter what I do I'm not satisfied the car is in my head day & night, here's one for you Guy I'm taking nuts & bolts out replacing them with zinc phosphate, right now I'm trying to find out is the engine compartment was originally Black Semi-Gloss - Satin or Flat I won't call Kurt anymore of these finite details I'm pestering him enough. But I'm driving myself crazy (it's in my head & it's worse when I'm near it or in it talk to myself is that right or am I seeing things help I'm aligning wiring clips the way they should be etc etc) lol lol

Guy Fillinger

You don't have to tell me I know! Just keep thinking you are doing it right. And yes, Kurt is waaaaay too nice, I'm surprised he didn't block my number. I needed an original correct date coded tire to have as the spare. I found one! Trust me when I say you can never be done, you just have to say I QUIT! I'm not there yet, I don't know if I ever will. It's all the good people here that keeps my Addiction alive. I won't have access to my car until early spring, so maybe someone else can help you with the right engine compartment paint. It appears that the harness you need for your alternator is the engine harness. Check to make sure.

69 Hurst

alsmith787,
From what I was able to find out, there are actually three different black finishes under the hood that sort of build on each other. The "satin" finish starts with the core support. Then the upper radiator support and firewall take on kind of a semi-gloss and it finishes with a high gloss radiator and heater box (if a non AC car). This info was given to me by the the appraiser who did my car (the same guy that does Wayne Carini's appraisals) so I was comfortable taking his advice. I removed everything from the firewall forward on my car last winter and did a complete repaint/detail of the engine compartment down to new phosphate bolts from AMK. The car has its original open faced alternator, distributor, carb, fuel pump, water pump, water temp and oil pressure senders and the list goes on... I'm very pleased with the results.

alsmith787

Great info my heart felt thanks! Makes perfect sense for my confusion, in my engine compartment, dissecting each individual component in front of me this explains a lot, two small questions what is the two YELLOW letters on my firewall behind engine marked LL - 2nd your engine compartment & actually your 69 H/O looks fantastic (hope I can get mine to that point before I leave this world lol) noticed your battery cable routing looks like it's routed behind the hood hinge along top of fender wall to battery others are routed over top of manifold (drivers side) with clips then turn left to battery with the trailing power lead going up connected to horn block which is right?
Again thanks for the helpMuch AppreciatedAL

69 Hurst

The "LL" are assembly stamps from when the car was built. Preserve them any way you can! I found an original "H" on my firewall which I masked before spraying it.

As far as the battery cable routing goes, this is a point of discussion for many owners. I've seen positive cables run across the intake manifold secured with clips held in place by valve cover bolts as you describe but from what I've been able to come up with, that routing is for 4spd cars only. Automatic cars are to run along the inner fender well but do not go behind the hinge, rather the cable trails off in front of the brake booster and down thru a cable tube that is attached to the frame. Here is a pic that at least shows where the cable tube goes and the cable running through it.

alsmith787

Got it! Great picture mine is routed that way could it be that as months went by Oldsmobile found this easier or more efficient or coming over the engine safer from a potential burn? I know Oldsmobile used to make these changes on the fly either not document via drafting dept from engineering or just do it never note it!

FStanley

one of the most correct engine compartments I've seen in a while.. Good Job!

69 Hurst

Thank you sir!

Guy Fillinger

The battery cable went both ways, on my car which is a survivor, the cable runs on top of the manifold. Kurt Karch said once " the more you know about these cars the more Head Aches you will have". It all depended on the workers on the line that day. But I have never seen the Battery Cable go behind the Hood Hinge.
69 Hurst-----NICE

briane

Wow, that looks great. It will be a long time before I get to a comparable point. Reflecting a comment above, hopefully get there before I expire.

Did any of you guys find a code stamped onto the front of the fan clutch?

WTHIRTY1

Sometimes the two letter code is present. Sometimes there isn't a stamping. On an occasion, you may even find a two letter code AND the 6 digit part number.

As for the firewall color in a previous reply, it'll be a flat black.

69 Hurst

Yes, though it was faint. I believe it was a two letter code.

briane

Could you read what the fan clutch two letter code is?

Jamesbo

Jeff Meister [ who is a member here but not vey active] has a CD of pics of under hood stamping pic he's taken over years and years of research

69 Hurst

Unfortunately not, the car is bagged up for the winter.

69 Hurst

You can visit Jeff's '69 H/O page here...

http://www.jeffmeister.com/1969hurst/

69HO43

And original showroom H/O in the pic below. Cable goes over the valve cover on this one. PIM has information saying that's where it should go as well. 400 engines show on page 12-132 that you route it at the front of the valve cover or behind the alternator on A/C cars. Don't see anything about manual transmissions routing them differently. Page 131 for the 350 shows manual or auto routes the cable along the fenderwell. There's also a picture of the 400 cable tube bolted to the back of the head, either auto or manual. 350 sections show different routing depending on transmission.

Even with that, the cables were along the fenderwell in car magazine cars. It probably doesn't matter as long as it connects to the starter without shorting. I think you can prove your case either way. There is documentation can support it whichever way you decide. I'm going by the PIM and the pic below. Valve cover routing. Your cable may vary.

69 Hurst

When I was at the H/O Nationals last year, I paid close attention to other's routing of this cable since there would be so many '69s in one place and knowing I was going to be undertaking an extensive detailing of my engine compartment that winter. The majority of the cars had their cables running along the wheel well (including two untouched original cars), but to be honest there were quite a few the other way as well.

I know the cable in my first '69 442 (which was only four years old and totally unmolested at the time) had the cable running along the fender well with the tube attached to the frame like I have on my H/O now. I remember this because I had to move that tube as it interfered with the header installation on that side. So I guess we could say there's no absolute right or absolute wrong way to route the cable.

alsmith787

Thanks very much for the pic & diagrams tremendous help But are U supposed to assume the 455 was routed that way I mean treated as a carbon copy of the 400?
Oh! I know I guys have been to the Nationals over the years -- Who is the toughest Judge at the Nationals U know the guy I find out there & say awww S**TThanksAlsmith787

Guy Fillinger

Our cars went down the line as 442's they would not have changed things because the engine had a bigger displacement.

69HO43

My only other 69 442 had a manual transmission in it, no A/C. And it had the cable going over the valve cover.

It appears there have been cars built both ways, although the PIM says it goes down the valve cover if it's a 442. And the H/O was a 442. Same size engine on the outside. Of course, they always could change stuff at a moment's notice.

There was a discussion of this way back in 2013 about the positive cable on a 69 H/O.

I posted this picture of a barn find 69 H/O in that thread. Close inspection of the cable shows the black plastic cable clip that would go on top of the valve cover. Is it legit? Who knows?



The magazine cars were pre-production models, and they may have only had 3 or so running around all the magazines? Regardless, some of them had the PCV valve on the valve cover, and other little things. And the cable running down the fenderwell. I've seen cables both ways on supposed original cars. I say supposed because in 50 years, anything can happen.

Fenderwell route on a pre-production magazine car


I'm still of the consensus that either way is correct. There's enough evidence to support either routing, IMO.

briane

This is a low mileage original car, body tag showing the 3rd week of May. There are some items that have been changed, however the battery cable doesn't appear to have been relocated.

Koda

I wonder how close the over-the-fender route comes to the clutch linkage on a car with a standard transmission.

rallyredw31

I have a 69 W30 4 spd which goes over the valve cover and down the vertical positioned tube on the back of the motor. This follows suit with the 70 model year auto vs manual. Auto coming over the fender well to a semi horizontal tube. We know there are 2 different bracket tube combo's. My thought and only a thought is that the big car 455's possibly had the cable come across the valve cover? Since the 455 was not a regular production engine in a 442 it doesn't follow suit with the 400 cars. My H/O comes across the well but has a 4 speed bracket and appears that when new would have came across the valve cover. Just my 2 cents but what do I know?

69 Hurst

That's why I thought the over the valve cover route was for 4spd cars.

FStanley

I've heard of some '69 HOs having positive cable routing the same as stick cars, however if one references the 1969 Factory Oldsmobile A body (F-85) Assembly manual it is routed along the inner fender, then down through a tube to the starter like other automatic A Body cars..

Fred

alsmith787

Thanks everyone (I mean it) all good solid advise & explanation - but there is one thing now I'm coming to the conclusion all routings are correct - I'm convinced that #1 - #906 there are all variations - being a actual 442 of the line before going to Demmer with a engine swap of the 455 compared to the 400 & the block being a Tornado block with the D heads etc etc it's who & what team was on the line that day I also understand that some of the regular line guys weren't happy swapping engines because Olds Execs really didn't have a dedicated line the cars I was told was a Off Line add on that annoyed some of assembly team workers because they were left the make it fit & more importantly work

69HO43

442's in my PIM copy showed the cable routed along the valve cover in the PIM regardless of transmission. The only routing change shown was if it had A/C or not but it was just the point it started the run to the top of the valve cover. This was in the latest revision I saw of Rev F, dated 2/16/69 when they removed a cable routing detail vew. Could this have been the fenderwell routing for auto trans??? Do you have a different revision that shows it differently? At some point, did someone not get the memo? I've seen nothing to change my belief that at some point in the last half of the 69 model year that the 442 battery cables were supposed to be routed along the valve cover regardless of transmission. Whether they did all the time or not is another story. And I've never seen anything about 69 H/O cable routing, except for that one picture in the dealer showroom cementing what's in the Rev F PIM.

The pre-production H/Os had the routing on the fender, and a production version dealer showroom version has it along the valve cover. This is likely due to the pre-pros built before the "change" of 2/16/69 which was after the early cars but before production vehicles. Then it's just a time factor before that info got to the assembly lines. Fremont? Oshawa? Lansing? Did they do something differently and if so, for how long? And restorations? I wonder how many "only MT cars had cables routed on top of the valve covers" types simply "fixed" what they considered a factory flaw? Once restored, they're not what I'd call reliable. Note that some people tend to over-restore their cars with 48 different tags and labels and 800 chalk marks under the hood. Then you look at original cars and there just didn't seem to be very many. A few stamps, a couple of decals and a couple three chalk markings most of the time. Which is right?

Routing of the positive cable could have changed depending on the shift, and sometimes whichever was easier. I don't know at what point the "cable guy" was to install/route the cable, so it was pretty much up to them I suppose. Either method was available, but the PIM I have references MT and AT tube bolted to the back of the head on 400 and no other routing for the 442, at least to the page(s) version covering cable routing I have in section 6-1. Real-world evidence exists that they did route them differently during the 1969 run. The question of the month is we know they did, but was it slated in stone?

briane

It appears, for some vehicle builds, the routing illustrated on page 12-131 for 350 ci engines was followed. Seems like that would work well with the AMT battery tube and bracket, and perhaps that is why some were assembled in that manner?. Appears to be the case for the 20,000 mile late May car i posted the picture of.

PatL

Not disagreeing with your post or information. I just would of assumed GM would just used one shade of black and that would be it. Perhaps it depended on where the parts were made?
Just curious...……..

Gerald Nickels

Did you know tower clamps have date codes ? I have some if needed but might not be 69 I can check dates.
Gerald

alsmith787

Now I'm really confused - I remember Tower Clamps as being absolute crap in the day they appeared mostly on Chevy & Pontiac, even some Ford's & Mercury's in the 60's But in the more upgrade muscle cars Olds & Buick I remember the double wire screw & nut. Now WAIT!! Before you start throwing stones I remember these on 60's muscle cars upon delivery out of the Dealership with less than 10 miles on the cars when you'd drive them home; this I swear & don't tell me I was seeing things because Its not the tower Clamps, these were also used; Tier Clamps I remember the real problem with those were getting them loose & off. This double wire clamp w/screw & square nut; not to be confused with the S.S. worm clamp was prevalent.

alsmith787

Where I said tier I meant tower clamp (darn spell check)

69HO43

Olds was using double wire clamps well into the 1980s as well. I remember Chevy BBs cars I had loved using tower clamps a lot.

Just a note about that 20K mile "original" 69 pic. There are parts missing (heat stove), and parts changed out, and the cogged fan belt? It's a very nice car, but I wouldn't point to anything "restored" to any level as the poster child for factory positive battery cable routing. It may not have been changed. Or it may have because of what I mentioned earlier- "Only MT cars routed it like this- I'll fix it" types getting their fingers in there. Unless we find the person who refreshed it, we'll likely never know for sure. TBH, I don't think any judge would know for sure, either, so I doubt if any points would get deducted.

This is a fun dead horse to beat. Because it can only be one way or the other when your car got delivered. Which way it actually came is the question.

alsmith787

I Agree it's gets so confusing & hard that it becomes laughable at times almost like there is no right answer on Anything.
Here's one ---- what color black was all the dash - side pillars colored - Gloss - Semi-Gloss - Satin or Flat???
The reason I ask this on my Mom's 64 olds 442 the lower metal dash was gloss black & the white side pillars (she had white interior) were gloss white and thats Absolute!! you see Dad bought the car for Mom in 1964 & it's been in our family since the only time I was away when I served in Vietnam & even then nothing on the car was ever touched

briane

I actually own the 20,000 mile car. A friend had it 25 years and last Fall he asked if I would take it over and be the next care taker. I sold some stuff so I could do so. He was the third owner. Yes, there are a number of items that are incorrect as noted and I'm working to rectify them. The third owner only changed the water pump and that fan belt in the 3000 miles he drove it. I can't speak with authority to what happened in the first 25 years with owners one and two. They very likely were not trying to follow an assembly manual and make changes accordingly. The more I study the more little, less obvious incorrect things I find. But when you figure out what the prior owners were trying to fix or change, the alterations seem to add up.

I've examined closely the positive battery cable and the strap retainers. They don't appear to have been disturbed. Now I could be wrong, its just how it appears to me.

I just pulled out three magazines of the day featuring test of the then new '69 Hurst Olds. Two non A/C cars clearly have the battery cable on the inner fender. It also appears the one AC car does likewise.

However, we certainly see early photos both ways. I'll speculate that in the assembly manual there isn't guidance for routing the battery cable specific to the 455. Perhaps both pages 12-131 and -132 were alternatively followed? My take is both routings are correct.