e.cast728

Hello everybody, I have 72 Cutlass Supreme, recently inherited it and ive been trying to fix up/replace older parts. This morning i tried to start it and it wouldnt even crank. Now the HEAT and GEN lights come on but every time i go for the crank it wont. Now whats strange to me about this after hearing multiple responses from other people about grounded cables, dirty battery etc is that i am also getting a really strange burning smell coming from under the hood. And sporadically ill hear what seems to be a turbine (possibly the alternator, i didnt actually see it) spinning for a few second then it stops, and remember this will happen after trying the car and then i leave it alone. So now i got some strange smell and this strange random turbine action that you can clearly hear. Any ideas? And i think i might have even seen a bit of smoke coming from the left hand AC vent directly left of the steering wheel. Thanks for everyones help guys.

MDchanic

Does the whirring sound occur while you are trying to crank, or when the switch is just turned "ON"?

Possibility #1: Bad starter throw-out mechanism, starter spinning but not engaging.

Possibility #2: Heater blower is screwed up and tight, and is trying to turn when the ignition is on, and getting too hot.

Welcome to ClassicOlds.

- Eric

classicmuscle442

Not sure about smells, keep a fire ext handy, but if it won't crank and its an automatic, try starting it in neutral.

e.cast728

Thanks for your responses guys. OK so the whirring turbine like sound happens randomly after i try to crank it but not right after. I try to turn it on and nothing and so ill take the key out and go to check our around my car and all of a sudden i hear some action under the hood.

Also why would it be better to start it on neutral? just want to know the mechanics into the solution.

Is their any safe way to start the car to get it to a mechanic?

MDchanic

We still don't know what's wrong with it.

Nothing should whir with the ignition off. You need to look into that.

As for the starter: Use standard troubleshooting.

Is the battery in good condition and fully charged?
Are the battery terminals and cable clamps clean and tight?
Are the cable clamps well attached to the cables?
Are the cables in good, clean condition? Do they show any voltage drop from the battery to the engine or starter?
Are the connections to the engine and starter clean and tight?
Does turning the ignition key to START send a solid 12V to the solenoid "S" terminal via the purple wire?

If the answer to any of these questions is "No," you now know where to start looking.

- Eric

NHolds

Hard to tell with the information we have.

Turn the key, and you get nothing. Could be starter, battery, cables, ground...

Whirring sound with no key in the ignition??? That doesn't make any sense to me. If something is whirring with the key out you have major electrical issues

e.cast728

Right, troubleshooting the starter and the battery was my first thought, but the things that throw me way off were the strange smell (burnt) and the sporadic autonomous whirring. Electrical issues also come to mind, would you happen to know of anything specific or any general problems. The whirring and the strange smell seemed to come from behind the steering wheel/ dash and under there, the left hand front tire area even.

NHolds

Sounds like starter now... probably one of the cables is grounding out. Stop trying to start it or you will probably burn your car up.

e.cast728

OK well thanks again everybody, really the only place i got some answers. So ill check the battery cables. How do i check if the cables are grounded out?

Thanks again to MDchanic and NHolds and classicmuscle.442

oldcutlass

The noise may be the key minder. Your going to have to start troubleshooting after cleaning the battery terminals and making sure your cables are good. I like to start at the starter and work my way back. If you have 12v on the terminal with the purple wire when the key is turned to the start position, and good voltage on the big cable to the starter, I'd suspect the starter or solenoid.

e.cast728

Thanks oldcutlass, for sure the battery terminals are clean, free of any acid as for the cables being good i can safely say they are but ill doublecheck just to make sure and im still checking off from the list that MDchanic gave me. Id like to share an answer i got from another site and see what you guys think.

This is from someone else

A "turbine" sound would make ME think that the starter was spinning but the solenoid wasn't throwing the gear out to engage the flywheel. With that, you'd get a "hot," smell because the starter without a load would be whizzing at a really high speed. It certainly would give that "won't even try to start" result, too. I'll bet the starter went bad. That's what I would go shopping for. And on a '72, it's PROBABLY two 1/2" bolts that hold the starter on and the only other nuts hold the wire(s) on. Figure a 20 minute job, done at home. : ) That year starter would be cheap, too. MAYBE $50 at the Zone or Advance Auto, with a lifetime warranty.

MDchanic

A fine thought, but it can't be right, because you hear the whirring with the key off when you're NOT trying to start the engine.

- Eric

oldcutlass

I don't understand, you said it did it randomly with the key out of the ignition. With reference to the other suggestion, it's basically leading to the same result as what MD, I, and others suggested, except we don't like to spend money and replace parts before troubleshooting.

e.cast728

Ok so the possibility of an electrical problem just increased. Something sparking and sending electricity when its not supposed to i assume?

oldcutlass

Possibly a good assumption, your going to have to get a meter or test light and start troubleshooting.

e.cast728

Alright guys thanks a lot again, i really appreciate your answers and suggestions. Ill go ahead and buy a meter, check the battery, battery cables, check to see if theirs a 12 volt going to the solenoid, definitely check any other wires around the area where i heard whirring and just knock off everything from the list.

Thanks again!!!

oldcutlass

Let us know what you find, good luck.

olds1968

It will be helpful if you have a wiring diagram as well. Get yourself a service manual if you don't have one yet or go to wildaboutcarsonline.com and sign up for free and look up the manual that way.

rustyroger

A quick rough and ready way to check the starter motor; Take a hot wire directly from the battery + terminal and touch it to where the purple wire on the solenoid connects.
If the starter is good it will crank the engine. It doesn't matter if the ignition is on or off for this test btw.
To answer an earlier query; the starter should only work with the transmission in park or neutral, there should be an inhibitor switch in the starter circuit via the transmission to tackle this.


Roger.

nsnarsk65cutlass

First things first you need to have a good battery to start with,otherwise you're spining you're wheels and going nowhere.You did not mention that .Nick

fbonanno

You say in your original statement that the turbine sound can happen after you've left it alone. Sounds to me like the solenoid is hanging up. I would pull the starter, and go through/inspect the solenoid contacts, and bendix drive. Especially the plunger on the solenoid. I wouldn't be surprised if the starting contacts are in bad shape. If so, you may be able to dress them up, or get new contacts. Bench test a number of times to see if you can duplicate the problem before you tear into it though.

boese1978

You mention you have not had the car too long, does it have a electric fuel pump? they "whir".

Mongoose

Take a video, post it on YouTube, and post the link.

MDchanic

Just for clarification, a starter Bendix is an inertial drive used on F_rd products, which engages the ring gear when the starter begins to turn and doesn't need a starter solenoid to throw out the gear.

GM uses a solenoid-actuated sprag clutch starter drive.

- Eric

rustyroger

I didn't know inertia starters were ever used much outside the UK, whacking the starter on a poorly maintained car to jar the bendix free was an often employed fix on lots of British cars with the ubiquitous Lucas starter motors. Changing the starter ring gear on the flywheel was a common repair too.
Did US Fords have the same issues?.


Roger.

MDchanic

Hi Roger. On closer review, it looks like F_rd stopped using a Bendix drive around 1956. My experience is all with '30s-'40s F_rds, so I'm not sure exactly when the change was made.




The later starters have no solenoid, but it's because the use magnetism from the stator coils to throw out the starter drive:



- Eric

Mark57

Im just going to throw this out as I'm not experienced with this ignition system. Does this vehicle have an ignition relay that could be hanging up due to bad contacts or weak return spring and keeping power to the starter for a short period of time after the ignition switch is turned off? The smell could be contacts burning up on the relay which could also keep your voltage limited to the starter due to carbon on the relay contacts?

Mark

1970supremevert

do you know if the car is/was equipped with an alarm system? or maybe look for a toggle switch someone may have installed to prevent theft

MDchanic

No, it doesn't.

- Eric

76olds

Eric .... do the older cars have the fusible link wire as on my 76 ??

MDchanic

Yes they do, but if that goes, everything goes.

- Eric

stellar

I'm not sure what the heck is happening here, but a possibility is a broken or shorted S wire to the solenoid. I suspect something (Hot wire) is at times touching the solenoid post that connects to the starter field connection. I also suspect there is a good posibility of a lot of oil and dirt soaking the starter in and out. Give it a good look and see what is up. I always thought Bendix was a Name Brand and not an actual part description.

MDchanic

Vincent Bendix, US Patent #1,172,864 for an inertial starter drive, February 22, 1916:



- Eric

69442C

Another possibility to consider is the starter may be throwing the starter drive to the flywheel and the drive is bad which doesn't spin the engine. If the drive gets stuck momentarily in the engaged position, it will continue to be engaged electrically, causing it to continue to spin even if the key is switched off. The smell could be the drive getting hot and burning grease or itself.

Octania

suppose you were to pull the starter and have it bench tested? Ck for proper 12V to the S wire while you are at it.

e.cast728

Hey everybody. I haven't been on here for the last few days due to work, but good news is i found out why its not cranking and about the smoke also. As for the turbine like whirring i still don't know and am still catching up with everybodys posts, thanks again everybody, this website was more help than anywhere else i looked. So i traced the positive cable down to the starter and there it was, an arc-fault between the end connector of the positive and the starter. This burned the metal end connector making a crescent shape and that's where the smoke came from. I'm going to replace the cable and also check the alternator to see if its possible the output is too high, maybe playing a part in burning the wire. Will also be checking starter just in case.

MDchanic

Alternator output has nothing to do with it. Positive metal touches negative metal, and you tend to get sparks.

- Eric

brown7373

I'd check the neutral safety switch on the bottom of the steering column. It could be out of adjustment or defective. Also, move the shift lever to make sure you are firmly in park, or put it in neutral and move it around a little while turning the key. If the switch is slightly out of adjustment, moving the shift level may find a spot where it makes contact. But then adjust it.


Is it possible the whirling sound you hear is the ventilation fan motor? Been there, done that.